135 replies to this topic

[Undercover Brother]

Out of every mech in this game, I've found the Summoner to be the most fun, and the most effective for me. I have tried EVERY SINGLE mech and variant released thus far, and the Summoner is where I conquer the battlefield. I am a lackluster player at best too. The Summoner tanks damage great, thanks to a rather speedy torso twist, or using the JJs to turn REALLY fast. The loadouts are ALWAYS simple, and easy to manage, Heat dissipation is awesome. She can boat LRMs as well as a Stalker, and brawl better than any Hunchback or even a Cataphract on the next mission.

Personally, I find the Timberwolf to be overrated, granted, that's probably due to my play style. I average 3-6 kills per match with my Summoners, and 1-3 kills with my Timberwolf.

I'm pretty sure that play style has more to do with he success or failure of the Summoner (or any other mech for that matter) than the mech's shortcomings. Hell, I SUCK with Assaults (including the Dire Wolf) and just as bad with I.S. lights. The Kit Fox is the only light I can pilot half-decent.
My best matches are in the 50-70 ton weight classes. But that's just where my personal play style excels.

[r4plez]

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Armour. That brings it down.

Go add it up if you want, I've done it a couple times already.

HBR PRIME:

2x er ppc - 12t
ssrm6 - 3t +1t ammo
2x MG - 0.5t +0,5t ammo
3x er ML - 3t
ams - 0,5t + 1t ammo
active probe - 1t
ecm - 1t
tc mk3 - 3t

= 26,5t pod space

Edited by r4plez, 19 September 2014 - 10:56 AM.

[Mcgral18]

r4plez, on 19 September 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

HBR PRIME:

2x er ppc - 12t
ssrm6 - 3t +1t ammo
2x MG - 0.5t +0,5t ammo
3x er ML - 3t
ams - 0,5t + 1t ammo
active probe - 1t
ecm - 1t
tc mk3 - 3t

= 26,5t

Comes stock with 128/211, which means its missing 83 points of armour 83/16=5 tons. PGI replaced 2 tons on the Prime with armour, so 26.5-3 tons is equal to 23.5.


Armour, like I said.

[Felio]

The Summoner could probably benefit from a speed boost, as well.

I doubt it will get anything, though. I think PGI is OK with some mechs being flat-out better than others, for some reason. And if they do anything, it'll be something meaningless, like 5% to arm pitch rate.

[Celthora]

T Decker, on 19 September 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:

Out of every mech in this game, I've found the Summoner to be the most fun, and the most effective for me.

I dont understand this while Timber does better of the same. Apply same build to TW and even add some more heatsinks ammo targeting cpu etc and try again, no reason for not to do better.

[r4plez]

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Comes stock with 128/211, which means its missing 83 points of armour 83/16=5 tons. PGI replaced 2 tons on the Prime with armour, so 26.5-3 tons is equal to 23.5.


Armour, like I said.

26,5 add to this 19t engine + 3t Heat Sinks you got 48,5

65t - 48,5t you have 16,5 t left for Internals and armour, thats plenty, or am i missing something?

also Prime got 320 amour points max, so dont know why you pointing 128/211

Edited by r4plez, 19 September 2014 - 11:17 AM.

[Mott]

ThomasMarik, on 19 September 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

I like my SUmmoner but only because I like the look of the mech. Its an old clan Workhorse. It's barely a frontline mech during the invasion. It just doesn't perform as well as the Timberwolf does. Yeah you can potentially do well with it. You would have done even better in the Timber wolf.

Re-read the invasion books, particularly the story about Victor Davion in his VTR facing a clanner in a Summoner. The Summoner rips not only Victor's mech apart, but also does a number on the rest of his lance.

The Summoners were definitely frontline mechs in invasion lore.

Victor Davion specifically named the Summoner the "Thor" because it was like the mech wielded the power of lighting in one hand and the power of thunder in the other hand, like the gods of old.

Edited by Mott, 19 September 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[Mcgral18]

r4plez, on 19 September 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

26,5 add to this 22t engine + 3t Heat Sinks you got 48,5t

65t - 48,5t you have 16,5 t left for Internals and armour, thats plenty, or am i missing something?

also Prime got 320 amour points max, so dont know why you pointing 128/211

That's because they removed 2 tons of Apods in the legs. It's not max armour. 65 ton mechs have a cap of 422. Guess what 120 points of armour is?

[StalaggtIKE]

The Timberwolf could lose the JJ. Bam! Fixed. /thread

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 19 September 2014 - 11:20 AM.

[Tremendous Upside]

I'd really like to see the Summoner alt-F side torso(s) added to the game. That variant apparently held a missle and energy hardpoint in the torsos. Yeah, it's just one extra energy hardpoint, but being able to stuff an ERPPC into the torso instead of ballistics would be nice.

[Undercover Brother]

Why do I do better than with my Timberwolf?

Simple: The Timberwolf was built as a mech where firepower was highest at range, and got lower as you closed. All the TW's loadouts support this. The Summoner was built for light support at range, and for firepower to increase as you closed with the enemy. So, if the two stood side by side, the Summoner supports the TW at range, and as the TW's firepower decreases, the Summoner's gets greater, so the TW is supporting it. The TW tends to run hotter in closer engagements, but the Summoner runs cold. The hardest thing to defeat in this game right now is two decent pilots in a TW and a Summoner, working closely together. They complement eachother VERY well, something that 2 Summoners or 2 TWs DON'T do well when paired. And that's the secret to my success. I find a TW pilot (or a LRM heavy Stalker) and I ride along with them. Inevitably, when ranges get lower and lower, I become an angel of death. I can cover the TW from roaming lights and mediums while he's closing with the main enemy force, and then I mop up what he wore down with his ranged weapons. Its common sense, really.

What will be downright SCARY will be a 4-man team in a Hellbringer (running heavier on ballistic and missile weapons -because it runs so hot- WITH ECM), a Summoner set for brawling, and a TW and Mad Dog set for medium to long range.
THAT WOULD FREAK ME OUT.

[Joanna Conners]

I love my Summoner. Nothing wrong with it that I can see.

[r4plez]

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

That's because they removed 2 tons of Apods in the legs. It's not max armour. 65 ton mechs have a cap of 422. Guess what 120 points of armour is?

Nevertheless based on PGI loadout you have full 26,5t pod space when you strip weapons, ammo and eq from Loki Prime, leaving engine, internals and armor, because how can you have less when you calc weight of those

Edited by r4plez, 19 September 2014 - 11:32 AM.

[Asyres]

T Decker, on 19 September 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

Simple: The Timberwolf was built as a mech where firepower was highest at range, and got lower as you closed. All the TW's loadouts support this. The Summoner was built for light support at range, and for firepower to increase as you closed with the enemy. So, if the two stood side by side, the Summoner supports the TW at range, and as the TW's firepower decreases, the Summoner's gets greater, so the TW is supporting it. The TW tends to run hotter in closer engagements, but the Summoner runs cold. The hardest thing to defeat in this game right now is two decent pilots in a TW and a Summoner, working closely together. They complement eachother VERY well, something that 2 Summoners or 2 TWs DON'T do well when paired. And that's the secret to my success. I find a TW pilot (or a LRM heavy Stalker) and I ride along with them. Inevitably, when ranges get lower and lower, I become an angel of death. I can cover the TW from roaming lights and mediums while he's closing with the main enemy force, and then I mop up what he wore down with his ranged weapons. Its common sense, really.

That's cool and all, but there's nothing stopping you from building a cool, short-range build with the 'Wolf.

Edited by Asyres, 19 September 2014 - 11:33 AM.

[Mcgral18]

r4plez, on 19 September 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Nevertheless based on PGI loadout you have full 26,5t pod space when you strip weapons, ammo and eq from Prime, leaving engine, internals and armor, because how can you have less when you calc weight of those

You have 28.5 tons of pod space on the other two variants, that's because PGI removed 2 tons of Apods and replaced them with armour on the Prime.

When you MAX THE ARMOUR on every Loki, you will have 23.5 tons of pod space. That isn't hard to understand.


Try it on the other two, which mount 2 tons less armour, they will have 28.5 tons of pod space due to low as balls armour. Now max the armour, to 422 points, or rounded down to the nearest half ton. 23.5 tons left.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Kirkland Langue, on 19 September 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

It's one thing to argue, "Removable JJs would break the lore behind Omnimechs" and something completely different to say, "here I'll paint a slippery slope which will happen if you give in on this one request." Don't try to mix the two arguments in an effort to make each argument seem reasonable. Slippery Slope arguments are never reasonable arguments.

I'm ok with someone wanting to maintain the rocked JJ's for Lore reasons - but at the same time, it's very easy to see that Timberwolf is strictly superior to the Summoner, and that something should be done.

I am trying to point out that once you let people break one rule the clamor to break others. It is a precedent that should not be set. Fixed equipment is not just a lore reason, it is a game rule reason. They happen to be intertwined in this case.

As for the comparison between the Timberwolf and the Summoner. Frankly the decision to add the S variant was a poor one in my opinion and they should have gone with the Alpha configuration. The Summoner has always been good, but outclassed by anything that can mount jump jets optionally as well as the very limited hardpoints available using PGI's system. Really any heavy over 60 tons with jump jets sacrifices a good deal of weight to the jets. The Timber Wolf which is maxed out on weight saving tech can afford it, the Summoner which lacks Endo Steel cannot. Not every chassis was built with being a meta monster in mind. And more often than not the older designs were built with lore in mind, the Timber Wolf just wound up with the perfect storm of being lore and meta kosher.

[r4plez]

Mcgral18, on 19 September 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

You have 28.5 tons of pod space on the other two variants, that's because PGI removed 2 tons of Apods and replaced them with armour on the Prime.

When you MAX THE ARMOUR on every Loki, you will have 23.5 tons of pod space. That isn't hard to understand.


Try it on the other two, which mount 2 tons less armour, they will have 28.5 tons of pod space due to low as balls armour. Now max the armour, to 422 points, or rounded down to the nearest half ton. 23.5 tons left.

OK, but i wasn't even trying to max armor on those, my intention was to point how much pod space one will have with stock Loki Prime after you strip what you can without even touching amor and that was 26,5t

And thanks for this math convo, it was refreshing - better than mwo gameplay anyway

Edited by r4plez, 19 September 2014 - 11:50 AM.

[Mcgral18]

r4plez, on 19 September 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

OK, but i wasn't even trying to max armor on those, my intention was to point how much pod space one will have with stock Loki Prime after you strip what you can without even touching amor and that was 26,5t

And 28.5 tons for the others, A and B. Suicidal to bring that little armour, though.

Edited by Mcgral18, 19 September 2014 - 11:48 AM.

[Undercover Brother]

Actually, building an effective short range TW is kind of a misnomer. So you want to turn faster (like th Summoner), take the TW-S for JJs, and space for 4 SSRM/SRM launchers (which now have a reload speed penalty), then you add 1 to 3 MGuns (great for crits, and nothing else- Which the Summon does better), add a few lasers (which after placing enough reloads for the SSRM/SRMs, you are already running hot, and you have a limited choice of), and even after adding 4 ERMedium Lasers you now have to pack as many heat sinks as you can to counter. In the end, you have a 1.04 heat rating, a much larger torso, and arms that are spread out further, making REALLY close range a BAD situation for you. The Summoner is better in all aspects when fighting close range.

[Mcgral18]

T Decker, on 19 September 2014 - 11:51 AM, said:

Actually, building an effective short range TW is kind of a misnomer. So you want to turn faster (like th Summoner), take the TW-S for JJs, and space for 4 SSRM/SRM launchers (which now have a reload speed penalty), then you add 1 to 3 MGuns (great for crits, and nothing else- Which the Summon does better), add a few lasers (which after placing enough reloads for the SSRM/SRMs, you are already running hot, and you have a limited choice of), and even after adding 4 ERMedium Lasers you now have to pack as many heat sinks as you can to counter. In the end, you have a 1.04 heat rating, a much larger torso, and arms that are spread out further, making REALLY close range a BAD situation for you. The Summoner is better in all aspects when fighting close range.

Not quite.

Timby can do TCmk1, 4 MPLs, 4 SRM4s, 4 tons of ammo, 22 DHS, 3 JJs and run pretty darn cool. Hitboxes are a tad better, since you can frontload everything safely.

It has just as many missiles, while still having a full laser battery. Summoner doesn't have the hardpoints for that.

It's an amazing mech.
TBR-S

It averaged 800 damage between 5 matches on the Test server. A beastly brawler.

Edited by Mcgral18, 19 September 2014 - 11:57 AM.