337 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

I can't disagree on Convergence. It is the worse part of MW:O. And I LIKE using double and triple weapons.

[Pht]

Sable, on 19 September 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

Title says it all. The spike damage nonsense wouldn't be such a problem if it took a whole lot more effort to bring down a mech. Heat management skills would be more valuable since you wouldn't be able to alpha all day long. Maybe it's just tonight but MWO is not fun right now.

*Has a serious case of deja-vu*

Oh, this seems so familiar

The fix you ask for will cause other problems, the fixing of which will eventually lead to someone else asking for MORE armor and internal structure.

Fixes, like, say, upping rate of fire on the lower absolute damage weapons to try and keep them from being shelved ... and the attempt to keep the lower damaging ligher and smaller weapons off the shelf is even more imperative because putting them on the shelf puts light mechs effectively onto the shelf, because lights can't carry big heavy weapons.

The bad seed is STILL bearing fruit, now that it's a tree... and that tree will probably still keep growing.

Really, the 'mechs' weapons handing ability ought to be put into the game (Meaning it's not IN the game) before the white rabbit hits the red queen's court and the queen calls for everyone's head.

[Thorqemada]

Well, i have seen Vids with Jager XII having 3 Artemis-CSRM6 perfectly capable of applying most damage to 1 Location at 100m.
At short range SRM be very FLDPP Weapons when you use SRM4s or Artemis-SRM.

Dont know why a Player from the Olymp has ot deny Facts...especially as CSRM are ridiculous low weight...
and SRM make any slight damage spread up with sheer numbers of Rockets (bcs they be no Missiles).

Edited by Thorqemada, 22 September 2014 - 05:56 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 September 2014 - 05:45 AM, said:

FTFY.

We really need to stop using the term skill that way.

In the context of hitting whales straight CT every time while on the move, reflex is probably lower priority on the skill set requirement sheet than say for hitting lights.

[Magna Canus]

stjobe, on 20 September 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't see that having a CoF destroys all skill in other FPS games - some of them are even considered "eSports" (I don't see MWO ever becoming an eSport, and there's a lot of bad decisions made in the name of trying to get it there).

So yes, that's one way to do it. Motion-dependant cone of fire; the faster you move, the larger the cone. Remember, several weapons in MWO already have a cone of fire: MG, Flamer, LBX, SRMs, this would just mean the lasers and ACs also got one if they were moving.

There's other ways of doing it, of course: delayed convergence might be out, but we could force chain-fire by a 0.1 - 0-3 second global cooldown, we could make IS ACs burst-fire and PPCs splash, just like their Clan counterparts.

Lots of ideas have been put forward on how to reduce the impact of our instant pin-point convergence. What's important to remember is that nobody has ever suggested that it should be strictly RNG - that's just a bogey-man that those who for some reason want the current system to stay inevitably come up with, like RNG was anathema to skill. Hint: It's not.

Off the top of my head, here's some of the RNGs in the current MWO:
* Matchmaker (your team if you're PUGging or dropping in less than 12-man groups, as well as the other team)
* Map selection
* Game mode selection unless you only have one selected
* MG, Flamer, LBX, SRM cone of fire
* LRM missile clustering
* Crits by any weapon.
* Ammo explosions

As I said, off the top of my head, I'm sure there's other randomized things in there as well.

RNG is not the devil - and either way, those arguing for a cone of fire wants it to be as determined by skill as possible; just like just about any other FPS out there.

Honestly I don't think this is very relevant to what the OP was about. In a later post he stated the issue was him sticking his head out and getting blasted to hell. That for me means you have several people sitting in one spot, not moving, with their weapons trained on a general area requiring very little adjustment to hit your target. CoF is not going to help much there. Case in point is my Direwolf with 4xCUAC10. He is slow as hell so I pick a nice spot I figure the enemy is going to cross and wait. Sure enough, somebody does and I make a slight adjustment of maybe 2-5 deg to center the target. Well, Clan AC10's fire 4 "slugs" per shot, but I still get to double tap and screw that med mech to death with 80 damage. Works great for guys peaking over ridges as well since they cant hit reverse back into cover fast enough.

CoF would eliminate the effects of aiming all together, either good or bad aim. We have enough guys out there standing still and shooting 20m next to the target as it is, well, at least those guys might actually get a hit on something by pure luck with a CoF instead of needing to aim. CoF for direct fire weapons will also increase the number of LRMs on the field. Why carry direct fire weapons that may or may not randomly hit what you aim at when you can simply lock a target and fire. People will fall back on weapons they know that already have the CoF like SRMs, or will be unaffected like LRMs. Camping will also increase because many people will not be able to deal with moving and firing, they will camp and wait for the next head to crest the ridge they are looking at. So, all of a sudden, the guy that moves is the guy that looses because his weapons have been toggled to Storm trooper mode.

So, no thanks on the CoF.

[Karl Streiger]

Intstead of double armor there are two things necessary:

Scale armor by hit box size - smaller boxes less armor (not logical - but it will benefit those that are able to hit smaller targets)

second scale armor by importance: to kill a STD Fusion Mech you have to

• destroy its cockpit (small box - low armor)
  
• destory its CT (size dependend on the Mech - max armor)
  
• destroy both legs (size dependend - but together more armor as CT)

Problems: Destroy a side toros Mech will loose its arms -> JaegerMech (don't bother to shot at the arms)

So next to the actual size scale armor(SSA) you need a priority scale armor (PSA) - so for example the arms on a Jaeger become less armored, while its sides get more.
(Rough but old idea need some more thinking)

[Bishop Steiner]

Quxudica, on 21 September 2014 - 07:02 PM, said:

Besides that though, I think you illustrated my point in your comment. A medium should not be able to cripple a 100 ton assault in three Alpha's,

An Atlas, stock, has 78 pts combined armor and Internal Structure in TT. In MWO that translates to 156 pts to CT core an Atlas, IF rear armor is no reallocated to the front.

In TT, a 3025 era HBK could fire a 33 pt alpha, and generate between 1-3 waste heat, depending on movement. 3 such alphas, are 99 damage, with 3-9 waste heat. Atlas, dead.

If it hit Side torsos, it only need punch through 32 armor, and then up to 21 internal, but chance are good the ammo would be hit before you were done.

Either way, no, a Medium can, and should, with good gunnery and piloting, do exactly that. Instead, that same HBK, in MWO, generally has a 35 pt alpha, and needs 5 perfect CT Alpha strike hits to core out an Atlas.

[Pht]

The truly disturbing part of all of this is that in the town hall with Russ and sean, Russ seemed to express genuine surprise at the idea that anyone would even think to point out that the battlemechs aren't behaving like ... well ... battlemechs.

How many times does it have to be pointed out that the parts of the system that got LEFT OUT tell you how well the 'mechs can handle their weapons to hit what the pilot is tracking in any given situation? ... That even the BT line developer has confirmed this, and this is nothing new to the latest iteration... it's been logically demonstrated time and time again that this would have well handled the "spike damage," pinpoint damage, alpha damage, whatever you want to call it ... and it's been validly demonstrated time and time and time and time again that adding this aspect to the game would NOT be moving to non-player skill based outcomes. For goodness sakes, it would allow you to hit what you want as far out as you could see it wit any single weapon, with the proper tradeoffs.

I tell you, I'm getting tired of repeating this, but the problem just keeps coming up constantly. I want to have something else to pursue besides pointing this out, but if it continues getting ... ignored? Who knows? I'm stuck in the long view of "well, maybe the next development team will read this."

Russ, simulating the 'mechs weapons handing would not make the game no fun.

Bryan, because the 'mech's weapons handling capabilities are not in the game in a robust fashion, the 'mechs are NOT finished.

Karl, said idea would NOT be a move away from player-skill based outcomes, which I'll happily validly demonstrate that to you.

David bradley - at least DELETE that PM I sent you over a year ago. At least than I'll know SOMETHING happened to it.

All of which leaves me one thing to say ATM - I'm not advocating adding a COF and I don't think doing so would be the proper way to fix it.

Edited by Pht, 22 September 2014 - 06:10 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Magnakanus, on 22 September 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

Honestly I don't think this is very relevant to what the OP was about. In a later post he stated the issue was him sticking his head out and getting blasted to hell. That for me means you have several people sitting in one spot, not moving, with their weapons trained on a general area requiring very little adjustment to hit your target. CoF is not going to help much there. Case in point is my Direwolf with 4xCUAC10. He is slow as hell so I pick a nice spot I figure the enemy is going to cross and wait. Sure enough, somebody does and I make a slight adjustment of maybe 2-5 deg to center the target. Well, Clan AC10's fire 4 "slugs" per shot, but I still get to double tap and screw that med mech to death with 80 damage. Works great for guys peaking over ridges as well since they cant hit reverse back into cover fast enough.

CoF would eliminate the effects of aiming all together, either good or bad aim. We have enough guys out there standing still and shooting 20m next to the target as it is, well, at least those guys might actually get a hit on something by pure luck with a CoF instead of needing to aim. CoF for direct fire weapons will also increase the number of LRMs on the field. Why carry direct fire weapons that may or may not randomly hit what you aim at when you can simply lock a target and fire. People will fall back on weapons they know that already have the CoF like SRMs, or will be unaffected like LRMs. Camping will also increase because many people will not be able to deal with moving and firing, they will camp and wait for the next head to crest the ridge they are looking at. So, all of a sudden, the guy that moves is the guy that looses because his weapons have been toggled to Storm trooper mode.

So, no thanks on the CoF.

No it doesn't. the Accuracy of weapons this game is using is often measured in Meter Radius, and hitting a target 15 meters in diameter is "Accurate".

[Bishop Steiner]

Ghogiel, on 22 September 2014 - 05:56 AM, said:

In the context of hitting whales straight CT every time while on the move, reflex is probably lower priority on the skill set requirement sheet than say for hitting lights.

click a pixel is still far more reflex based than actual skill. I believe it is much more skill intensive to hit anything on games like Battlefield or such, where most think CoF simply means spray and pray, yet the really good players are very good at knowing when and how to minimize things like the CoF for the best chance of success.

In MWO, it simply is a matter of how fast you can scroll your mouse to the right pixel. If you are slow and busted like me, then guys like Wispsy and Jager will beat me, all day. But 90% of that is simply reflexes.

[Túatha Dé Danann]

Karl Streiger, on 22 September 2014 - 06:03 AM, said:

Intstead of double armor there are two things necessary:

Scale armor by hit box size - smaller boxes less armor (not logical - but it will benefit those that are able to hit smaller targets)

second scale armor by importance: to kill a STD Fusion Mech you have to

• destroy its cockpit (small box - low armor)
  
• destory its CT (size dependend on the Mech - max armor)
  
• destroy both legs (size dependend - but together more armor as CT)

Problems: Destroy a side toros Mech will loose its arms -> JaegerMech (don't bother to shot at the arms)


So next to the actual size scale armor(SSA) you need a priority scale armor (PSA) - so for example the arms on a Jaeger become less armored, while its sides get more.
(Rough but old idea need some more thinking)

This would be highly loadout and mech dependent. While not a bad idea in the first place, it would clash with the "put in whatever and how you want" mentality of the basic battletech behavior. A 30 ton mech is equal to any other 30 ton mech and only the hardpoints and movement quirks set them apart. The Quirk of the Awesome to have more CT armor is just a cover-up for a problem that has not been adressed yet. The same goes for its heat Quirks, which change its total behavior compared to other mechs witrh the same loadout. Does the Banshee-Laserboat get the same Quirks, just because it cannot mount a balanced weapon loadout, or is the problem the broken weapon mechanics in the first place? Even a laser-boat should be wieldable, but currently, such 95-ton monsters must be equipped with small lasers to run halfway cool, giving them the firepower of a Light.

This is only one example and can be taken over to many battlemechs, like the Dragon, the Jenner (Yes, its CT is broken, as it is just too big), and any other battlemech, that suffers from the 3-3-3-3 rule (Any non 35/55/75/100 ton battlemech)

So, for you point on having the armor connected to the hitbox size would mean, we take the actual armor protection and just scale the mech up in an apporopriate manner. The other way around will not work, as the Spider would pop by a hit from a single Large Laser, as it would have less armor protection than a Locust then, but would still be a 30 ton mech... with an armor rating for a 30 ton mech.

[Pht]

... and for everyone else, especially those who think that the COF is ... THE ... way to fix the pinpoint/spike/alpha damage problem:

Is it too much to ask to get some decent CONSTRUCTIVE conversation from people who disagree instead of the f-bomb dropping and name calling that's all that's happened in the last couple of years?

http://mwomercs.com/...different-idea/

Yes, it's long, no, I dont' expect it to be read and digested in one pass. Hell, I didn't WRITE it in one pass!

Edited by Pht, 22 September 2014 - 06:17 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 September 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

No it doesn't. the Accuracy of weapons this game is using is often measured in Meter Radius, and hitting a target 15 meters in diameter is "Accurate".

Target Match Accuracy is measured in "Minute of Angle" or clustering shots around a 1 inch grouping (plus or minus determining 1/2 MoA, 2 MoA, etc).

Combat shooting is measured in MoP, or Minute of Person. At what range does the weapon reliably hit a man sized target.

Armored combat, it is simply minute of target, which tends to be other, similar sized vehicles.

Simply put, if one holds center mass on a moving battlemech, while in their own, running, jumping, battlemech, and hits the target, that is realistic and believable accuracy, under most combat conditions. Add extreme range, jumping and such into the picture? You never HAVE a perfect center mass hold to begin with.

Even if we don't see a "CoF", there needs to be serious reticle bounce and shake added to truly emulate the environments and situational nature of combat shooting.

Sorry to all the "skill" princesses out there, but one does not get a perfectly stable hold and firing solution when one is doing aerial pilates in 80 metric tons of moving metal.

[SI The Joker]

Sable, on 19 September 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

Title says it all. The spike damage nonsense wouldn't be such a problem if it took a whole lot more effort to bring down a mech. Heat management skills would be more valuable since you wouldn't be able to alpha all day long. Maybe it's just tonight but MWO is not fun right now.

I did not read all the pages. I wasn't interested in what the conversation turned into.

I disagree with the idea proposed. My reasons are:

1. If you crest a hill or round a corner blindly and get your self shot to bits, that's your bad. Especially in areas of known contention (map hotspots). My suggestion is to check your corners/crests before you make them; Especially in large mechs.

2. If you are outnumbered and have 3,4 or more mechs firing upon you... you're going to get shot to bits. Quickly.

3. You have to understand that a large majority of players these days know what parts to shoot on a mech in order to remove the 'biggest' weapon. Name your mech... and folks will tell you what they are shooting at before they even see you on the battlefield because they know where you put that AC20 or those gauss rifles and they are gonna do their best to remove/destroy those weapons as to disable your ability to deal damage.

4. Heat management really doesn't (in my opinion) have a role in this. See items 1,2 and 3. Because many players have an understanding where to shoot (and those that don't just aim where everyone else aims) heat management is completely irrelevant when you're talking about 4 mechs blasting your side torso with lasers, AC, PPCs and whatever else they brought to the party.


It's frustrating, I know. But some patience goes a long way, friend.

Just remember, there is always a mech around that corner and 3 mechs on the other side of that hill.

Edited by SI The Joker, 22 September 2014 - 06:22 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

I haven't dropped an F-bomb or got insulting and I feel that firing more than one weapon should have a cone of fire.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 September 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:

Sorry to all the "skill" princesses out there, but one does not get a perfectly stable hold and firing solution when one is doing aerial pilates in 80 metric tons of moving metal.

While trying to get a Targeting Computer in a 140 degree room to actually calculate the shot. Sitting in a(likely) Air Conditioned room with a stable chair is not a true representation of ones skill shooting while moving at 40+ KpH.!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 September 2014 - 06:24 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

SI The Joker, on 22 September 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

I did not read all the pages. I wasn't interested in what the conversation turned into.

I disagree with the idea proposed. My reasons are:

1. If you crest a hill or round a corner blindly and get your self shot to bits, that's your bad. Especially in areas of known contention (map hotspots). My suggestion is to check your corners/crests before you make them; Especially in large mechs.

2. If you are outnumbered and have 3,4 or more mechs firing upon you... you're going to get shot to bits. Quickly.

3. You have to understand that a large majority of players these days know what parts to shoot on a mech in order to remove the 'biggest' weapon. Name your mech... and folks will tell you what they are shooting at before they even see you on the battlefield because they know where you put that AC20 or those gauss rifles and they are gonna do their best to remove/destroy those weapons as to disable your ability to deal damage.

4. Heat management really doesn't (in my opinion) have a role in this. See items 1,2 and 3. Because many players have an understanding where to shoot (and those that don't just aim where everyone else aims) heat management is completely irrelevant when you're talking about 4 mechs blasting your side torso with lasers, AC, PPCs and whatever else they brought to the party.


It's frustrating, I know. But some patience goes a long way, friend.

Just remember, there is always a mech around that corner and 3 mechs on the other side of that hill.

Ya know, maybe mechs need a periscope, or "corner shot" ability somehow where they can peek around corners without exposing themselves..... since I am constantly amazed how many people I see able to not just hit an ECM covered mech 500 meters out when it tries to peek.... but magically how often the whole team seems to know it's there in the first place.

Or maybe they just need to set up the User Config files so that people can't just strip everything out/adjust distance for heat vision, etc and actually force people to play on the "same playing field".

Eh, different topic, and one PGI doesn't like us talking about, for some reason.

Joseph Mallan, on 22 September 2014 - 06:24 AM, said:

While trying to get a Targeting Computer in a 140 degree room to actually calculate the shot. Sitting in a(likely) Air Conditioned room with a stable chair is not a true representation of ones skill shooting while moving at 40+ KpH.!

Imagine how hard it would be for all these poor "skill" gamers to go to war. As they crawl into the firing cupola of an M1A1 abrams...... then can't find any place to plug in their adjustable dps mouse, no cup holder for their cans of Monster.......and then they look into the scope...and can't find any settings adjustments to remove all the smoke and visual detritus from their LoS.......

And that's before the thing even starts moving and they start getting bucked all over the place from every pothole and dip.

And that doesn't even touch what happens to one's own manual coordination once people start shooting at you.

But hey, it's all about the "skillz".

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 September 2014 - 06:36 AM.

[Mechteric]

No thanks, it can already take forever to finally take down a Spider running around, why make it worse than it already is? Not to mention how long it can also take to destroy the likes of the Stalker or Dire Wolf if you don't have half your team focusing on it.

[WarHippy]

I still would like to see a system where you fire one weapon and you have pin-point accuracy, but with each additional weapon the spread increases. Different types of weapons could have different amounts of spread, and with that people would be less effective at range bringing fights in closer like the devs want. This also allows the pin-point talent to have a proper use by lowering the amount of spread.

[Joseph Mallan]

I have supported that idea for a long time here.