71 replies to this topic

[Felio]

I'm not sure why the 30 instant pinpoint damage from the dual gauss is acceptable, let alone combining it with another 20 for a total of 50.

Even if it hits in two locations, as the PPC projectile speed nerf aimed to achieve -- 30 and 20, bam! It's too much damage. If you aren't dead already, you know you will be soon unless you play timidly enough to be useless. And it's not like this was a risky, strategic move that came at great cost. He's going to do it again in a few seconds.

Was this the plan all along? I have to assume it was, or something else would have been done when this was being looked at. The only effect was that you won't be hit with both if you are at an extreme range and currently moving about 90 degrees to the left or right of his perspective -- an exceptionally rare occurrence.

[Solomon Ward]

In my opinion the limited movement of the Dire balances the Firepower pretty nicely.

In theory the Dire makes the game more tactical and flanking more important.

Just my humble opinion.

[Fire and Salt]

How is 30 damage not acceptable?


Armor values are double of what they were in TT. A single gauss in TT is supposed to hurt as bad as dual gauss do in this game.

[Felio]

Fire and Salt, on 16 September 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

How is 30 damage not acceptable?


Armor values are double of what they were in TT. A single gauss in TT is supposed to hurt as bad as dual gauss do in this game.

It breaks from the norm when we talk about ghost heat. Six medium lasers is 30 damage over 1 second. Two large lasers is 18 over 1 second. Two PPCs is 20 instant damage. So is one AC/20. But the gauss rifle, with the fastest projectile and very long range, gets to hit for 30 instant damage.

But oh yes, there is the charge mechanic. Horse puckey. It's an annoyance and a poptarting nerf. So the sniper has to duck behind cover. Big deal. You can still brawl with it, even, especially with practice or a macro. The damage is still there, and it still feels like a cheap shot sucker punch.

In TT, you control a board of 'mechs. In this game, you are a pilot of a single 'mech. Everything that happens matters a whole lot more to your experience. If Chess became an online shooter, no one would want to play the pawn, and everyone would want to nerf the queen, and rightly so.

Edited by Felio, 16 September 2014 - 09:37 PM.

[Ultimax]

Felio, on 16 September 2014 - 09:35 PM, said:

It breaks from the norm when we talk about ghost heat. Six medium lasers is 30 damage over 1 second. Two large lasers is 18 over 1 second. Two PPCs is 20 instant damage. So is one AC/20. But the gauss rifle, with the fastest projectile and very long range, gets to hit for 30 instant damage.

You aren't making much sense.

6 MLAS do not have Ghost heat. They also weigh a paltry 6 tons.

"The Gauss Rifle" does not do 30 damage, it does 15.

TWO Gauss Rifles, do 30. Considering how much they weigh, that's the entire point.

[YueFei]

The way convergence works, you can skyline yourself to force enemy shooters into making shots that won't converge.

Or work your way in closer, but not too close, so that he must lead his shot into the background, and with a big difference in distance between the background and yourself.

I'm really not sure where the sweet spot is.

If you're farther away, but his aimpoint is on a piece of background at nearly the same distance as you are from him, then his weapons projectiles will have nearly converged fully by the time they reach you, so may still hit one spot even if you're moving laterally. If you're too close, he can use a piece of your own mech as the aim point (doesn't need to lead that far ahead) and still focus all his damage to one spot.

Sometimes I go through a match absorbing a lot of hits but surviving and watching my mech slowly get grinded to pieces. Other times an entire shoulder just vaporizes.

Really depends on what's in the background from the enemy shooter's point-of-view when they're aiming at you.

Edited by YueFei, 16 September 2014 - 11:41 PM.

[El Bandito]

Felio, on 16 September 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

I'm not sure why the 30 instant pinpoint damage from the dual gauss is acceptable, let alone combining it with another 20 for a total of 50.

Even if it hits in two locations, as the PPC projectile speed nerf aimed to achieve -- 30 and 20, bam! It's too much damage. If you aren't dead already, you know you will be soon unless you play timidly enough to be useless. And it's not like this was a risky, strategic move that came at great cost. He's going to do it again in a few seconds.

Was this the plan all along? I have to assume it was, or something else would have been done when this was being looked at. The only effect was that you won't be hit with both if you are at an extreme range and currently moving about 90 degrees to the left or right of his perspective -- an exceptionally rare occurrence.

NARC+ Lurm the Direwolf. Your only hope.

[Nauht]

Let me guess, you're a light that tried to stare down a dire whale?

[Charronn]

All i can say is if you front up against a Dire Whale you deserve whats coming to you.
Flanking is your best tactic here.

[YueFei]

Nauht, on 16 September 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

Let me guess, you're a light that tried to stare down a dire whale?

Sometimes people are moving laterally and still get one-shot. It happens. Like I said, it depends on what's in the background from the shooter's POV when he's aiming at you.

I was once crossing the stream of Forest Colony in a Jenner, moving laterally relative to a DireWolf as he rounded the tall rock to the right of the sewage pipes. I burned my jump jets too soon, bunny hopping *before* he fired his shot. As I landed, he aimed down at me, using the ground for convergence. 2xPPC+2xGauss to the CT, dead Jenner. Very nice shot.

Kind've a hitbox problem on the Jenner though. Another time similar to that one, I absorbed a shot like that with the Jenner's arm when I twisted away. I managed to survive the rest of the match on just 3 medium lasers.

Carrioncrows really had the right idea when he proposed to make sensible hitboxes for the mechs. =/

[XX Sulla XX]

Polls done in the past show that 30 is what most people think is OK.

[NeoCodex]

Can someone elaborate how can you use ground or background for convergence? Where is the difference? So you aim at the ground and not at the mech before shooting? I don't get it.

[ShinVector]

Felio, on 16 September 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

I'm not sure why the 30 instant pinpoint damage from the dual gauss is acceptable, let alone combining it with another 20 for a total of 50.

Do you run dual gauss mechs much ?
Or is your real issue with Clan/Dual Gauss ?
The funny thing is threads calling the gauss rifle useless.. Still floats about now and then.

[Kmieciu]

NeoCodex, on 17 September 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

Can someone elaborate how can you use ground or background for convergence? Where is the difference? So you aim at the ground and not at the mech before shooting? I don't get it.

In order to get that one-component hit, you need to be slightly above the enemy so that when you lead, you point at the ground in front of him. If you are below him, you will have point at the sky which is infinity far away. When you see the infinity symbol by the crosshairs that means your shots will not converge, and will probably hit 2 enemy components.

Charronn, on 16 September 2014 - 11:48 PM, said:

All i can say is if you front up against a Dire Whale you deserve whats coming to you.
Flanking is your best tactic here.

I had a match yesterday against 4 Dire Whales on the enemy team. There were none at our team. How do you flank 4 Dire Wolves?
When I jump and dodge one DW alpha, I call it luck. Dodging 4 in a row would be a miracle.

PS. Gauss rifle is still the best weapon IS has against the clans. Too bad the clan version is clearly better. It's 20% lighter, it should have 20% longer cooldown IMHO.

Edited by Kmieciu, 17 September 2014 - 12:28 AM.

[kapusta11]

Ah, this type of thread again "Nerf the weapon because of a single mech", ufortunately PGI tend to listen to this ones.

Edited by kapusta11, 17 September 2014 - 12:26 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Kmieciu, on 17 September 2014 - 12:22 AM, said:

PS. Gauss rifle is still the best weapon IS has against the clans. Too bad the clan version is clearly better. It's 20% lighter, it should have 20% longer cooldown IMHO.

If clan weapons were balanced on a 1:1 ratio with IS weapons, then clan build restrictions would need to be lifted.. (hardlocked wrong size engines, heatsinks, FF/Endo upgrades, silly head flamers etc)

Thats why clan weapons are not 1:1 balanced, because they dont go on IS mechs with no restrictions.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 17 September 2014 - 12:50 AM.

[pwnface]

NeoCodex, on 17 September 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

Can someone elaborate how can you use ground or background for convergence? Where is the difference? So you aim at the ground and not at the mech before shooting? I don't get it.

Take into consideration that if you are shooting a moving target at medium to long range you need to lead your shots in order to land them. This is because gauss/ppc shots have travel time. The point at which your crosshairs are focused is the distance at which your weapons are set to converge at.

Here is an example:
If you are aiming across a level field at an enemy mech (400m) but your crosshairs are set on a hill (lets say 1000m) in the far distance, your shots will converge at 1000m rather than at 400m. This will cause your shots to hit different components on your target, perhaps a left and right torso rather than both CT.

Now consider a scenario where you are firing from an elevated position. If you are aiming down at an enemy and leading your shots, the ground behind the enemy will be much closer than the hill in the previous example. Let's say the enemy is once again at 400m, however this time your weapons are converged on the ground just behind the enemy position (425m). Your shots will have a much tighter convergence and have minimal spread, likely placing all your shots on the same component which is the ideal outcome.

I hope this is helpful!

[pwnface]

PPCs have already been nerfed significantly, I don't think the 2xPPC/2xGauss Dire Wolf is as dangerous as it was before. It can't reach out to long ranges to one shot moving light mechs anymore. The Dire Wolf is supposed to be a powerful killing machine, it's ridiculously slow speed mitigates its killing potential. As someone who doesn't own a Dire Wolf, I think it is fine where it is currently and doesn't need additional nerfs.

[Violent Nick]

Felio, on 16 September 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

I'm not sure why the 30 instant pinpoint damage from the dual gauss is acceptable, let alone combining it with another 20 for a total of 50.

Even if it hits in two locations, as the PPC projectile speed nerf aimed to achieve -- 30 and 20, bam! It's too much damage. If you aren't dead already, you know you will be soon unless you play timidly enough to be useless. And it's not like this was a risky, strategic move that came at great cost. He's going to do it again in a few seconds.

Was this the plan all along? I have to assume it was, or something else would have been done when this was being looked at. The only effect was that you won't be hit with both if you are at an extreme range and currently moving about 90 degrees to the left or right of his perspective -- an exceptionally rare occurrence.

In this game, players pilot mechs with weapons and they shoot at each-other generally in order to destroy the opposing team or complete some other objective to win..

Dunno what we can say other than that really.

Maybe PGI should sort out hit reg and make PPCs splash damage weapons but I doubt either of those will happen. To be fair, if someone chain-fires clan er ppcs at you, you're only taking half damage anyway last I saw! Then again, I haven't used PPCs for a while as they are a bit pathetic given that any decently manoeuvrable enemy can avoid them at 600m+. To be fair, that was the intention of the projectile speed nerf. I personally haven't noted being 'one-shotted' since.

Personally, I pinpoint my 4 SRM 6s now, or double gauss or even AC20s.. Sometimes, I even put 2 Er Large Lasers on my Cicada and take components with that. Hmm....

[Thorqemada]

Fire and Salt, on 16 September 2014 - 09:21 PM, said:

How is 30 damage not acceptable?


Armor values are double of what they were in TT. A single gauss in TT is supposed to hurt as bad as dual gauss do in this game.

And in TT the damage is done at a frequency of 10 seconds (Sarna:"Each turn represents 10 seconds of time.") and not at 4 seconds...and in TT each Gauss would hit a different Location at a very high probability which makes it 15 damage on 1 Location in 10 seconds...so the damage in TT is a ~quarter to a single location compared to MWO damage for that OP example.

Edited by Thorqemada, 17 September 2014 - 01:14 AM.