76 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Sandpit, on 24 September 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

switching JJs to directional instead of just straight up would really help mitigate the JJ issues.

HGNs are just sad at the moment...with 5 on the Victor, you can kinda jump. I might have to put some Wub back on the Victor-K and have some fun with that, while jumping around the new map if they really go through with removing the Atlas like turning.

Metus regem, on 24 September 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Thanks I'll have to look into it.

AztecD, on 24 September 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

u give link now

http://www.solarissk...s.com/downloads

[Lemming211]

FrupertApricot, on 24 September 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

It is sad that we have to nerf some chassis hard, but the root of it is the fact that clan weapons are simply superior in every single way. Less tonnage, which lets you carry more heat sinks, and the heat sinks are also smaller. Any disadvantage from being locked into an engine or having limited arm range or whatever is only going to make the clan mechs with low pod space useless. the strongest facet and indicator of use for a clan mech is available pod space and hardpoints.

The problem ends up being

Nerf clan weapons and you hurt the inefficient chassis
Leave them the same and actual shooting encounters will almost always favor the clanner.

The only solution I can see is to give them their proper ****, and give the IS access to better targeting, support fire, and spawn advantages.

My proposal is this:

12v12 like you want, but give the IS XXXtons of respawn to bring back into fight or superior starting positions (since they usually on defense). Make being on defense MEAN SOMETHING. This simulates being outnumbered without giving ALPHA SUPERIORITY away.

Essentially LET CLANNERS BE OP but balance it with asymmetry like Hnefatafl, the viking chess board game where one player has 12 pieces and a king and one player has 24 pieces.
Hnefatafl

Easy, 2 clan stars, vs 3 IS lances.

[Metus regem]

Lemming211, on 24 September 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

Easy, 2 clan stars, vs 3 IS lances.

To bad, that they have already said there tech limitations preventing them from doing just that...

Mcgral18, on 24 September 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

HGNs are just sad at the moment...with 5 on the Victor, you can kinda jump. I might have to put some Wub back on the Victor-K and have some fun with that, while jumping around the new map if they really go through with removing the Atlas like turning.




http://www.solarissk...s.com/downloads

Thank ya, I'll have to look in to it later though.

[Exidus]

I'm beginning to wonder if the players posting, " nerf clans ", actually have piloted them.
Do you bother taking a hard look at the differences of IS & clan? Probably not..

Clan mech pros:

Omnipods that allows limited changes to possible slotting
Clan XL engines
Auto 2 slot double heat sinks
CASE in all locations w/ 0 tonnage & slotting cost

Clan mech cons:

Ferro & Endo are pre-selected and can't be changed (it comes either stock or not at all)
Jump jets on some mechs are hard locked (usually @ 5-6 JJ's)
ECM on all mechs (save for Loki) are in the left arms (if you don't see this as bad, it means you can't shield w/ that side)
Engines are locked equipment, leaving Light & Daishi slow as dirt, compared to IS
Most don't allow ammo to be stored anywhere, except the torso & arms
Often have to choose between no weapons in a location for AMS via omnipod
Only come w/ 2x Con, 1x mech, 2x weapon slotting for consoles

Clan tech pros:

Lighter & take less slots
Shoots farther (ballistic & lasers)
Ultra AC versions of all AC's, not just AC5
LBX of 5-20
2 slot heat double heat sinks
7 slot endo/ff upgrades
1 slot BAP & ECM
Damage for lasers is higher
Targeting computers

Clan tech cons:

AC's regardless of type, all shoot via burst fire, instead of a single slug
LRM's fire via stream
Higher heat
Higher durations (all weapons other than NARC & Machine guns)


Now I'm not denying that clans have some good advantages, but they are already balanced out.
Clans have 0 mechs, that hill hump like Jagers/BJs/etc. Clan weapons require much more time on target, to
do full damage. Thus, the mech is exposed for greater periods of time.
LRM's shoot via a stream, which very significantly increases the value of AMS.
AC's are easily spread, due to burst fire, and leaves the mech exposed much longer.
We could also look at the mech choices via each side as well. Yes, the kitty is a sweet mech. No one debates that.
However, clans have 0 lights over 126kph. Kit Fox & Adder are maxed @ 107kph (rounded up) making them worthless scouts.
Yes, you "can" scout w/ them, but IS lights & meds outrun them. Baseline lights do 130kph, though most are in 140-160 ranger, with a few ~170kph. Assaults are kinda junk too. Yes, the daishi can pack an epic crapton of firepower. It also only goes 54kph. w/o speed tweak. That is a VERY big disadvantage. Most lights & meds can stay in the daishi's rear, and never be shot at from the mech. (it's a combo of low speed, low twist speed & degrees, and low arm movement)
The warhawk is faster, but it's a one sided mech, and has some crappy slotting.

A note about the amount of consoles. If the IS mech doesn't have ECM, it has 2 mech slots. That's a huge buff, if you actually
use the consoles. They don't have to choose between target dep, & something else. ex. LRM boat can get target dep & decay.
Once the mech is mastered, it gains access to an omni of sorts, allowing for a max of 3 mech slots. Don't sell this difference
short, or overlook it.

I could go on, but really look at things from both sides.

[Kain Demos]

The Dire Wolf is actually 48kph w/o tweak.

[mongo2006]

FrupertApricot, on 24 September 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

It is sad that we have to nerf some chassis hard, but the root of it is the fact that clan weapons are simply superior in every single way. Less tonnage, which lets you carry more heat sinks, and the heat sinks are also smaller. Any disadvantage from being locked into an engine or having limited arm range or whatever is only going to make the clan mechs with low pod space useless. the strongest facet and indicator of use for a clan mech is available pod space and hardpoints.

The problem ends up being

Nerf clan weapons and you hurt the inefficient chassis
Leave them the same and actual shooting encounters will almost always favor the clanner.

The only solution I can see is to give them their proper ****, and give the IS access to better targeting, support fire, and spawn advantages.

My proposal is this:

12v12 like you want, but give the IS XXXtons of respawn to bring back into fight or superior starting positions (since they usually on defense). Make being on defense MEAN SOMETHING. This simulates being outnumbered without giving ALPHA SUPERIORITY away.

Essentially LET CLANNERS BE OP but balance it with asymmetry like Hnefatafl, the viking chess board game where one player has 12 pieces and a king and one player has 24 pieces.
Hnefatafl

Your argument is flawed and has no facts to back it up. Gimme this, gimme that, before I put tears and snot all over you is all I hear..from (IS) pilots these days so let me give you some facts.

FACTS

Now I'm going to stay away from lore because I don't think there is a way to stick to lore in this FTP game that they call Mechwarrior.

• Clan tech is designed to kill the enemy at range, by using the extended range of their weapons the kill sweet spot is about 450m - 600m. The trade off is clan tech runs hotter than (IS), because of this clan tech is not designed for brawls.
  
• (IS) tech is designed to sneak up on the enemy with ECM (that's why there are so many ECM enabled mechs on the (IS) side..) and fight clan tech face to face, the sweet spot for (IS) 0m-250m. The idea behind (IS) tech is to get close to clan tech and negate the only advantage they have, range. By doing this the clan tech will shut down from over heating.
  
• Most noobs (some noobs have been playing MMO for over 2+ years and are still noobs) will stay between 400m-600m trying to snipe clan mechs in firing lines, they will build their mechs with the weaker long range weapons to try to trade blows at range with clans tech, instead of short range and more powerful weapons that their mechs where designed to carry. Most of the time they lose this type of engagement miserably.
  
• Most competitive clans have learned to take away the clans range advantage by using terrine and ECM to close the gap. Putting clan mechs withing the (IS) optimum killing range, as previously stated 0-250m. Ask the Lords for help with that.
  
• The drop in clan wins in the last test was not due to the nerfs so much as to the amount of new pilots that have gotten their hands on clan mechs with c-bills. Also a very small percentage of (IS) pilots have figured out that most clan pilots throw caution to the wind and build their mechs hotter than they should be (we have noobs too) If you get close to many clan pilots, they will panic and overheat. Many Timber Wolf builds will only allow them to alpha 2 times before shutting down, some only once. They are comfortable doing this (taking a chance) that (IS) don't have the balls to zerg them so they will always have time to cool down, come out of cover and shoot.
  
• (IS) mechs built for ranges of 0-250m have higher Alpha's and run cooler than clan mechs.
  
• (IS) have many lights that go faster than 150kph when the clans have none.
  
• (IS) jager can carry 2xUAC5 and 2 PPC with about 4-6 tons of ammo the Timber Wolf can't.
  
• (IS) pilots main weapon on the forums is tears and snot.

I mean there are many reasons why the (IS) isn't performing the way that it should, but the focus needs to be turned from clan tech to what (IS) pilots are doing to combat it. And from what I see they are doing nothing, but want PGI to give them some artificial advantage to compensate for their lack of tactical skill and ingenuity.



My advice is to go to the Lords web site and beg them to explain to you guys how they are able to combat clan tech and win and stop whining.

Edited by mongo2006, 24 September 2014 - 02:57 PM.

[Kain Demos]

I just found my favorite IS player on this site.

[wanderer]

1:1 Clan to IS balancing should never have even been attempted.

You could have put 'Mechs into MM by tiers rather than weight class. This might have taken effort.

You could have balanced Clan to IS at 1.2:1 (that is, 10 Clan 'Mechs carry the armor and firepower of 12 IS designs of similar weight), thereby making 10v12 natural. Of course,that would have made solo queue interesting and teams would have to be IS vs IS, IS vs Clan, or Clan vs Clan. And taken effort.

Instead, we attempt to supernerf Clan designs to a level they were specifically made to surpass. And here we are.

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

FrupertApricot, on 24 September 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

It is sad that we have to nerf some chassis hard, but the root of it is the fact that clan weapons are simply superior in every single way. Less tonnage, which lets you carry more heat sinks, and the heat sinks are also smaller. Any disadvantage from being locked into an engine or having limited arm range or whatever is only going to make the clan mechs with low pod space useless. the strongest facet and indicator of use for a clan mech is available pod space and hardpoints.

The problem ends up being

Nerf clan weapons and you hurt the inefficient chassis
Leave them the same and actual shooting encounters will almost always favor the clanner.

The only solution I can see is to give them their proper ****, and give the IS access to better targeting, support fire, and spawn advantages.

My proposal is this:

12v12 like you want, but give the IS XXXtons of respawn to bring back into fight or superior starting positions (since they usually on defense). Make being on defense MEAN SOMETHING. This simulates being outnumbered without giving ALPHA SUPERIORITY away.

Essentially LET CLANNERS BE OP but balance it with asymmetry like Hnefatafl, the viking chess board game where one player has 12 pieces and a king and one player has 24 pieces.
Hnefatafl

NO! Good bye.

[Metus regem]

wanderer, on 24 September 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

1:1 Clan to IS balancing should never have even been attempted.

You could have put 'Mechs into MM by tiers rather than weight class. This might have taken effort.

You could have balanced Clan to IS at 1.2:1 (that is, 10 Clan 'Mechs carry the armor and firepower of 12 IS designs of similar weight), thereby making 10v12 natural. Of course,that would have made solo queue interesting and teams would have to be IS vs IS, IS vs Clan, or Clan vs Clan. And taken effort.

Instead, we attempt to supernerf Clan designs to a level they were specifically made to surpass. And here we are.

That's why in later version of BT, 3 lances vs 2 stars was normal...

Another option would have been to use something like the Battle Value system.

Timber Wolf Alt. D BV 2351

Cataphract CTF-3D BV 1266

That tells me that for a fair fight it should be two stock CTF-3D's vs. 1 Timber Wolf Alt D, in practice, maybe not so much...

[Hagoromo Gitsune]

mongo2006, on 24 September 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

Your argument is flawed and has no facts to back it up. Gimme this, gimme that, before I put tears and snot all over you is all I hear..from (IS) pilots these days so let me give you some facts.

FACTS

Now I'm going to stay away from lore because I don't think there is a way to stick to lore in this FTP game that they call Mechwarrior.

• Clan tech is designed to kill the enemy at range, by using the extended range of their weapons the kill sweet spot is about 450m - 600m. The trade off is clan tech runs hotter than (IS), because of this clan tech is not designed for brawls.
  
• (IS) tech is designed to sneak up on the enemy with ECM (that's why there are so many ECM enabled mechs on the (IS) side..) and fight clan tech face to face, the sweet spot for (IS) 0m-250m. The idea behind (IS) tech is to get close to clan tech and negate the only advantage they have, range. By doing this the clan tech will shut down from over heating.
  
• Most noobs (some noobs have been playing MMO for over 2+ years and are still noobs) will stay between 400m-600m trying to snipe clan mechs in firing lines, they will build their mechs with the weaker long range weapons to try to trade blows at range with clans tech, instead of short range and more powerful weapons that their mechs where designed to carry. Most of the time they lose this type of engagement miserably.
  
• Most competitive clan have learned to take away the clans range advantage by using terrine and ECM to close the gap. Putting clan mechs withing the (IS) optimum killing range, as previously stated 0-250m. Ask the Lords for help with that.
  
• The drop in clan wins in the last test was not due to the nerfs so much as to the amount of new pilots that have gotten their hands on clan mechs with c-bills. Also a very small percentage of (IS) pilots have figured out that most clan pilots through caution to the wind and build their mechs hotter than they should be (we have noobs too) If you get close to many clan pilots, they will panic and overheat. Many Timber Wolf builds will only allow them to alpha 2 times before shutting down, some only once. They are comfortable doing this (taking a chance) that (IS) don't have the balls to zerg them so they will always have time to cool down, come out of cover and shoot.
  
• (IS) mechs built for ranges of 0-250m have higher Alpha's and run cooler than clan mechs.
  
• (IS) have many lights that go faster than 150kph when the clans have none.
  
• (IS) jager can carry 2xUAC5 and 2 PPC with about 4-6 tons of ammo the Timber Wolf can't.
  
• (IS) pilots main weapon on the forums is tears and snot.

I mean there are many reasons why that the (IS) isn't performing the way that it should but the focus needs to be turned from clan tech to what (IS) pilots are doing to combat it. And from what I see they are doing nothing, but want PGI to give them some artificial advantage to compensate for their lack of tactical skill and ingenuity.


My advice is to go to the Lords web site and beg them to explain to you guys how they are able to combat clan tech and win and stop whining.

With all my tentacles I agree with this guy...
Until IS mech pilots gonna try to outrange something what cannot be outranged there will be a rivers/oceans of tears. Another thing is a teamplay and mech roles on battlefield...

• - IS Assaults are made to brawl the hell out everything in front.
  
• - IS Heavies are made to provide massive fire support for brawlers or brawl together.
  
• - IS Mediums are made to provide mobile fire support and making booby traps behind that corner due their mobility.
  
• - IS Lights are made to recon, provide intel and ECM cover for all "big boys" and while those "big boys" are clashing hit enemy hard in testicles.

But, untill we gonna get LURMAtlas and many more exsamples of making some mechs useless, rivers of tears will continue to flow.

[Bigbacon]

still prefer IS over clan...even though I am using mostly clan right now. I equally suck in either one...

[Murphy7]

Only thing that is truly OP about the Clan tech is their HUD: Blue for the win, folks.

[Metus regem]

Murphy7, on 24 September 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Only thing that is truly OP about the Clan tech is their HUD: Blue for the win, folks.

too true!

[DONTOR]

You're right they are more heat efficient... oh wait.

Bigbacon, on 24 September 2014 - 01:03 PM, said:

still prefer IS over clan...even though I am using mostly clan right now. I equally suck in either one...

I admire your honesty

[Nothing Whatsoever]

The root of the problem is heat capacity.

If we got a base 30 plus 0.1 per heat sink then we'd have fewer problem areas, because what we have is 30 plus 1.4 per DHS (1 for SHS); and that is where heat scale (ghost heat) comes in to try and balance.

Then improving Capacity could allow for true external DHS instead of having them at 0.14 for Dissipation.

[mongo2006]

Praetor Knight, on 24 September 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

The root of the problem is heat capacity.

If we got a base 30 plus 0.1 per heat sink then we'd have fewer problem areas, because what we have is 30 plus 1.4 per DHS (1 for SHS); and that is where heat scale (ghost heat) comes in to try and balance.

Then improving Capacity could allow for true external DHS instead of having them at 0.14 for Dissipation.

Bro the root of (IS)'s problem is something I've coined as First Hit Dynamics. When (IS) lances first get hit by missiles or C-ERLL's they run for cover and hunker down, right in our sweet spot. This is not a general problem (The Problem) this is not a clan problem (Clan's Problem) we don't have any problems until you guys get close. We are just happy frying your faces and then ducking back into cover to cool off.

This is (IS)'s problem.. but the problem is self induced because (IS) pilots continually make the choice to stay at a range where clan mechs do the most damage..

[Nothing Whatsoever]

mongo2006, on 24 September 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

Spoiler

Bro the root of (IS)'s problem is something I've coined as First Hit Dynamics. When (IS) lances first get hit by missiles or C-ERLL's they run for cover and hunker down, right in our sweet spot. This is not a general problem (The Problem) this is not a clan problem (Clan's Problem) we don't have any problems until you guys get close. We are just happy frying your faces and then ducking back into cover to cool off.

This is (IS)'s problem.. but the problem is self induced because (IS) pilots continually make the choice to stay at a range where clan mechs do the most damage..

I dunno how to respond, you joking again?

Or really serious this time?

[Hillslam]

Or maybe, just maybe....

Clan weapons and equipment IS better (because it is, you can "emotion" math). And you're just not as good of a pilot as you think you are, you yogurt roleplaying neckbeard you.

(PS I own the Masakari pack and have mastered most of them, they are better)

[BlakeAteIt]

Metus regem, on 24 September 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

Ever look at the War Hawk? I've got a crap ton of tonnage and crits tied up in Heat Sinks... I've got a Dual Gauss with 1 ER Small Laser, that is at 213% Heat effiency on Smurf... WHK-A....

WHK-A If you're stuck with the heatsinks, may as well use them! This has similar alpha, higher DPS, and more ammo. Also, it skips the annoying gauss charge. The downside is that it's not got quite the range, though.