353 replies to this topic

[MalodorousMonkey]

Sounds pretty fun to me. I like that most planets will be up for grabs if a faction is doing well. Would be cool to see something very different from lore (Alternate universe!).

One thing I do want to ask is what happens if nobody chooses to defend? I used to play mechassault 2 on xbox live, and it had a sort of planetary conquest mode. One of the big problems in that game mode was that tons of people would go to attack, but very few people would defend. So if you couldn't get even teams, a game couldn't start, and the attackers could never "attack". Thus, you could stop an invasion by NOT defending....

So if I'm understanding the described system, you could choose whether you want to attack or defend a planet. If this is the case, what incentive do they have to defend rather than initiate an attack? Though I understand the numbers are tentative, the current doc shows a greater reward for winning an attack match than for winning a defense match. I could see this being another disincentive to defend. Why defend when you can get double the bonus cash for attacking?

TLDR;
If everyone chooses to attack rather than defend, will factions be unable to conquer planets? Can a faction halt an invasion simply by not showing up to defend, and thus, not initiating an attack game?

[hybrid black]

StalaggtIKE, on 24 September 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

I can run a large unit without flying under the same tag, by creating several small lonewolf units. We can coordinate an attack or defend and pay a cheaper drop cost. This system encourages it.

yes by playing for a house
being a merc isent for anyone its risk vs reward you wont get the contract part as much playing with scrubs

[L Y N X]

Question 1- By making the Mercenary units align/choose a faction (IS house or Clan) aren't you doing away with the original concept of Mercenary Units fighting for Periphery planets of their own?

Question 2- It is stated that Merc Unit independence might be incorporated in the future. If not, then mercs are finished are we not?

Questions 3- Can we become a Clan aligned unit for now and IF mercs gain a meaningful role in the future could we as a Unit revert back to a merc unit?

Basically, (I am speaking personally not as a leader of a battalion sized roster of mercs) I do not wish to align with any IS house, I am attracted to the Merc role that I was sold for the Legendary Package more than a year ago and have been trying to wait for as patiently as possible. Short of being a mercenary unit, if that choice is removed from the table then I would rather align as a clanner.
Q5: How interchangeable is my unit?
Q6: Do I have to hand it over and leave my unit?

Q7: Do I get to change Units Tags/Name with re-alignments from Merc to Clanners and vice versa?
Q8: Would I have to remake a new unit each time we re-aligned in order to change tags and unit name???

These are sincere questions, please PGI provide sincere answers.


PS. as a Unit Leader, I have to poll my members to see where their hearts lie in all this I know I have some members who are dedicated to one house or another, but by being mercs and not house affiliated, I've been able to avoid this sort of in-unit arguments. Now PGI, you are asking for a lot and I am not yet sure that our Merc unit can survive. Please give me some hope.

Edited by 7ynx, 24 September 2014 - 10:51 PM.

[MalodorousMonkey]

Rebas Kradd, on 24 September 2014 - 06:47 PM, said:

So at this time, what features have been sublimated into "Phase 3"?

* Merc Unit/Lone Wolf/Dagger Star participation
* Possible mech play restrictions
* Planetary rewards
* Dynamic pricing based
* Logistics
* Repair/rearm
* Crosstech salvage
* Contests on non-border planets (including capitals or Periphery)

Anything else?

Well at this time, I would much rather them get the core working. For all the slow development that PGI is guilty of, I think it's actually smarter for them to just get the basics of CW in and make sure it's working right before adding in a bunch of extra stuff.

[Deathlike]

For the big/small unit scalar "costs for dropping", it really should be based off of the player's activity relative to the unit... as big units will tend to have a fair portion of their players not active. It should probably be scaled relative to the time spend dropping in the actual game (minus all that time spent in the mechlab)... that would be a more "accurate" representation of the group... with possibly a "cap" on both ends (those inactive vs those always playing the game). Otherwise, it would be kinda unfair to big groups with "half an active roster".

[MalodorousMonkey]

Cmdr Rad, on 24 September 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

As was mentioned earlier... single players queuing up for a drop don't have any logistics placeholder costs that units seem to have, so aren't you essentially taxing the ability to drop with your fellow unit members?

It seems like a bit of a patchwork decision to give the unit coffers a reason to exist, yes. However, I wonder if it won't help balance a bit?

I mean, in the current group queue, people don't like that 6 groups of 2 will get absolutely slaughtered if they drop against a full 12-man. So maybe this will encourage smaller groups? Not the most ideal form of balance, I suppose, but maybe it will at least serve a purpose.

[MalodorousMonkey]

Sam Slade, on 24 September 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

One word: Outreach. It's the perfect lore based solution. Free agents arrive on Outreach looking for a contract or a unit to join, the matchmaker provides.

There are plenty of lore based mercenary groups that are not being used; this could be a great way to incorporate them into clan war. If Lonewolf, dagger star, merc corp players are added to the Outreach pool then any matchmaker gaps can be plugged with mercenary players. So, the defence of a Davion world may fall to 8 Davion aligned players and a lance of the Erridani Light Horse or the Grey Death Legion: it could be pretty awesome.

I could see this being a bit of a better solution than making merc corps align with houses. As it is, merc corps aren't really any different from other factions.

The only thing that I could see that may be perceived as a negative would be that merc corps would essentially be a less limited version of a faction. Unless you just like the Drac logo, why no join a merc corps? You have more options of where to fight that way.

So while this suggestion is more realistic, and something I'd like to see, I don't think PGI will go with it

[Sam Slade]

MalodorousMonkey, on 24 September 2014 - 10:47 PM, said:

The only thing that I could see that may be perceived as a negative would be that merc corps would essentially be a less limited version of a faction.

You don't get the loyalty point bonus you would get as a House Unit member. This could simply be used to represent the robust mercenary economy that is a strong feature in Battletech lore. Hell, the merc unit names wouldn't even need to be real(it would just be way cooler).

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 24 September 2014 - 10:39 PM, said:

For the big/small unit scalar "costs for dropping", it really should be based off of the player's activity relative to the unit... as big units will tend to have a fair portion of their players not active. It should probably be scaled relative to the time spend dropping in the actual game (minus all that time spent in the mechlab)... that would be a more "accurate" representation of the group... with possibly a "cap" on both ends (those inactive vs those always playing the game). Otherwise, it would be kinda unfair to big groups with "half an active roster".

This is a really good point. You absolutely do not want to penalize a unit for having inactive members. That just makes it harder to return to the game after some time away.

[L Y N X]

MalodorousMonkey, on 24 September 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

Sounds pretty fun to me. I like that most planets will be up for grabs if a faction is doing well. Would be cool to see something very different from lore (Alternate universe!).

One thing I do want to ask is what happens if nobody chooses to defend? I used to play mechassault 2 on xbox live, and it had a sort of planetary conquest mode. One of the big problems in that game mode was that tons of people would go to attack, but very few people would defend. So if you couldn't get even teams, a game couldn't start, and the attackers could never "attack". Thus, you could stop an invasion by NOT defending....

So if I'm understanding the described system, you could choose whether you want to attack or defend a planet. If this is the case, what incentive do they have to defend rather than initiate an attack? Though I understand the numbers are tentative, the current doc shows a greater reward for winning an attack match than for winning a defense match. I could see this being another disincentive to defend. Why defend when you can get double the bonus cash for attacking?

TLDR;
If everyone chooses to attack rather than defend, will factions be unable to conquer planets? Can a faction halt an invasion simply by not showing up to defend, and thus, not initiating an attack game?

I'm just speculating here, obviously I don't know, but... If the 2 hours window expired and no defenders filled the queue, (a real corner case) then would not the conquest succeed undefended? (ie. without a fight.) Plenty of precedents for this sort of thing in real life history.

[deimosAnomaly]

-What will be the indicators of a planet being contested (anything else then visual changes on the map)?

-Have you considered setting up a notification feature (so you would get alerts if your faction is attacking something, the main battle time starts, defend is needed etc EVEN if you are not in the FACTION tab currently?)

-Are you planning to add a UI element to the FACTION tab that you can get info about ALL currently ongoing conflicts with details of participating factions and an easy way for opting in the ones you are eligible for?

-Will there be an easy way to track token count for a given conflict (e.g not needing to click into planetary info)?

Edited by deimosAnomaly, 24 September 2014 - 11:08 PM.

[MalodorousMonkey]

7ynx, on 24 September 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

I'm just speculating here, obviously I don't know, but... If the 2 hours window expired and no defenders filled the queue, (a real corner case) then would not the conquest succeed undefended? (ie. without a fight.) Plenty of precedents for this sort of thing in real life history.

Well if one attacking group queued, and 2 hours passes without a single full defense group forming, it would make sense to just give the planet over.

But what about cases in which a few games have already been played out? Say it has been an hour, and an attacking clan has gained 5 of 10 tokens against an IS world. What if no defenders join for the remaining hour? Would the clan get the planet for free, even though matches have already been played and they already have 5 tokens?

[MalodorousMonkey]

Sam Slade, on 24 September 2014 - 10:52 PM, said:

You don't get the loyalty point bonus you would get as a House Unit member. This could simply be used to represent the robust mercenary economy that is a strong feature in Battletech lore. Hell, the merc unit names wouldn't even need to be real(it would just be way cooler).

I just skimmed through the doc again and only saw a few references to LPs. What are LPs supposed to be other than a numerical representation of how loyal you are to a faction?

That is a good point, though. I guess since I don't remember reading anything about loyalty points or what they will do for you I wasn't thinking about them.

The "freelancer" idea is looking even better to me now. Maybe mercs can even have a different system for rewards regarding the attack/defense of a planet. Rather than a flat reward, their reward will grow higher the longer a queue for a specific world has been waiting. Then, as you mentioned above, they can act as the "filler" for the matchmaker.

Edited by MalodorousMonkey, 24 September 2014 - 11:21 PM.

[Risen]

First of all, good ideas, keep it up, and get it running!

Now to the questions and suggestions:

You say that for the defense of a planet all players (divided into Clan and IS) are allowed to partake.
Towards lore this is quite sad.
Maybe you can split this up, going with Davion+Steiner support each other and Kurita+Liao+Marik support each other giving FRR the chance the support any (they have their hands full of clans anyway).
If you want to keep the rules in place please have a little lore added in the Loyality points:
Create a LP loss for Liao players defending Davion planets or Steiner players defending Kurita planets.

In IS vs Clan matches the "all support" rules could stay in place since you want the invasion to be your primary battlefield.


Next question:
The attackers team takes a planet for the faction after receiving 10 tokens.
What will happen if the attacker receive 10 tokens and decide to not defend against any further counter attacks from the defenders?
Will there be a time based token loss if players are willing to fight over a planet?
Can planets be taken without a shot fired if no one is willing to defend a planet vs unit "x"?
Players want to play if they plan to attack a planet (and later will even pay for it via logistics).
It would be sad to sit around in the attack queue with a full 12 until 12 defenders are found.
Maybe 10-15 minutes of wait time result in a token?

[Brut4ce]

Sam Slade, on 24 September 2014 - 10:23 PM, said:

One word: Outreach. It's the perfect lore based solution. Free agents arrive on Outreach looking for a contract or a unit to join, the matchmaker provides.

There are plenty of lore based mercenary groups that are not being used; this could be a great way to incorporate them into clan war. If Lonewolf, dagger star, merc corp players are added to the Outreach pool then any matchmaker gaps can be plugged with mercenary players. So, the defence of a Davion world may fall to 8 Davion aligned players and a lance of the Erridani Light Horse or the Grey Death Legion: it could be pretty awesome.

Thats the suggestion i had in mind to quote in here, Sam beat me to it

Recently i have been revisiting my Old games stack and went through MW2: Mercenaries. The "campaign" format on that game is something i always considered one of the better features of that title especially in terms of immersion; It also got me thinking of how cool would it be to have something like this in CW here, for Mercenary units and Dagger stars; also as Sam and others quoted it would be an awesome tool to "fill in" gaps in MM, and would provide an immersive element for mercs taking up contracts to participate in battles and for dagger stars as Clan players from the Clans not in the initial invasion called for as "reinforcements" to the Clan invading force, as it pretty much took place in the lore.

Finally it would be awesome for Example to have a few interactive GUIs under the "Faction" tab to incorporate this each season. For example:

When Season starts each player that has chosen their respective faction/clan/merc/dagger star affiliation, could have a slightly different overlay under their "faction" tabs, eg. maybe something like this :

For mercs :


For Dagger stars:



For IS House players (change flags to represent specific houses according to players' choice):



For Invading clans (Change symbols and insignia according to players' specific clan choice) :



Each overlay will have the same options in a respective "logical" location to click and expand, options like:

-Current IS map
-Setup Dropship
-Comstar Contract database (for Mercs), Battlefront assignment (for IS House players), Invasion bidding (for Clan players), Invasion reinforcements (for Daggerstar players)
-Newsfeed
-Battle schedule
-Alarms
etc.

what do others think about this?

<S>

[Lord Perversor]

Quote

Will the IS map change depeding on which planets are captured? Will the colored border around the planet immediately reflect this to show that the territory is now controlled by a different Faction?
There may be a very slight delay in the map updating but it should be minimal. And yes, the map will change and the borders will update. Who knows, maybe you'll see Liao pull a Hail Mary and take over the IS and keep the Clans from invading.

Give us the Urbie and we'll wipe the floor with Clans mechs

[Savage Wolf]

The question that I want answered the most is this:

Is the design goal of planetary conquest to give a match based more on objectives than taking out the enemy forces? To give an exampe, Conquest mode as it exists currently is still primarily focused on taking out the entire enemy team as opposed to winning on capping. Capping is the secondary objective and is the least likely victory condition.

So are the design goals for planetary conquest that destroying the generators are the expected victory condition as opposed to wiping out the enemy team. Or is just a secondary objective one must simply make sure is not achieved while destroying enemy mechs?

Also, will the defending players have a similar objective that will grant them victory by destroying? Attacking players must destroy the power generator, what must the defending players destroy?

[Reno Blade]

Thank you for the very good communication with all the detail and many many answered questions!

I think the matrix you and Randal Bills created for LP could be used for faction based bonus for economy (bonus earning, discounts and faction based mechs).

A quick concept including dropship mode with repairs and faction based mech unlocks can be found here:
http://mwomercs.com/...and-cw-effects/

An example progression for such faction based mech variants could look like this:



Here are some parts of the post for easier access.
Basic idea:

Spoiler

Faction specific variants and weapons would have x% reduced price, repair and customization cost. Includes modules (like weapon modules).
Gaining higher reputation (loyalty points) the % would rise further.
Gaining higher reputation would also increase income from contracts (for mercs) or defending the borders (for house and lonewolfes).

In addition (example numbers) each house has a base bonus to certain technology (not variant dependent):
Steiner would have 5% better prices for the black market (all off-house items) and 15% for assault mechs
Davion would have 10% better prices for medium and heavy mechs, 15% for ACs
Liao would have 10% better prices for light and heavy mechs, 15% for Equipment (ECM, BAP, TAG), LRMs
Marik would have 15% better prices for heavy mechs and 20% for Laser
Kurita would have 10% better prices for light, medium and heavy mechs and 10% for PPCs
FRR would have 15% better prices for medium mechs and 15% for SRMs and Airstrikes

Note:
Mech discounts are for the chassis without any equipment only.
Variant discounts count for the complete stock mech variant. (Additional/changed weapons will not be affected after purchase by this bonus)


Advancing on the borders would slightly alter the % (1% per planet).
Certain planets (behind borders) which can be invaded by mercenaries can gain extra effects like
- variant XYZ bonus
- certain weapon or equipment types get cheaper
- transport cost (for starsystem with a space station or space dock) reduced

Example with numbers:

Spoiler

You are a Steiner pilot and you want to buy a new mech.
You would have 15% off for any assault mech and 5% off for anything else.
You decide to buy an 80 ton Zeus Steiner assault mech and would gain the 15% Steiner assault mech discount plus the 20% Steiner-Variant discount for a total of 35% off.
Now your friends conquered 10 planets in the last month and slaughtered many innocent evil Kurita pilots.
These 10 planets give you additional 10% off for any transaction and you will pay only 45% of the original price for your 80t Zeus assault mech.

In addition you hold a planet with a space station that grants you 20% less travel costs and a planet with a factory for PPCs that grants you 20% reduced cost for PPCs and their repair and customization costs.
You will equip your Zeus with a brand new PPC for 25% off the price (5% black market Steiner bonus + 20% planetary bonus).

After a battle you can repair your PPC for 25% less again.
The chassis (Internals and armor) will be 45% off (like when you bought the mech), but the equiped AC will only be 5% off, as it is a Davion weapon and you only get the blackmarket Steiner bonus.

After reaching the next loyality rank, the bonus of each Steiner bonus is increased by 10%.
- Steiner Blackmarket bonus 5% base + 0.5% (additional 10% of the 5% base) ( for non-Steiner equipment. not added to the total for a Steiner variant)
- Steiner Assault bonus of 15% base + 1.5% (10% of 15%)
- Steiner Variant bonus of 20% base + 2.0% (10% of 25%)
- 10 planet bonus of 10% total (no loyalty bonus)
Total: 45% + 3.5% = 48.5% (for steiner assault variants)


Quick timewarp to the future:
You rised to loyalty rank 5 (max) with house Steiner and helped conquer 30 planets from Clan Jade Falcon and gained the Rank of Duke of the Isle of Sky.
- Steiner Blackmarket bonus 5% base + 2.5% (5 level for 10% each = 50% extra) =7.5% ( for non-Steiner equipment. not added to the total for a Steiner variant)
- Steiner Assault bonus of 15% base + 7.5% (5x 1.5%) = 22.5%
- Steiner Variant bonus of 20% base + 10% (5x 2%) = 30%
- 30 planet bonus of 30% total (no loyalty bonus)
Total: 65% + 17.5% = 82.5% discount for Steiner assault variants

And as a Duke, your bonus is calculated as if your loyalty level would be one level higher (max +1) = level 6.
(I see this as the maximum for a player to reach)
- Steiner Blackmarket bonus 5% base + 3% (6 level for 10% each = 50% extra) =7.5% ( for non-Steiner equipment. not added to the total for a Steiner variant)
- Steiner Assault bonus of 15% base + 9% (6x 1.5%) = 24%
- Steiner Variant bonus of 20% base + 12% (6x 2%) = 32%
- 30 planet bonus of 30% total (no loyalty bonus)
Total: 65% + 21% = 86% discount for Steiner assault variants

for any assault mech: 24% (assault) +30% (planets) = 54%
for any steiner non-assault mech variant: 32% (variant) + 30% (planets) = 62%
for any non-assault and non-steiner variant: 8% (black market) + 30% (planets) = 38%

Dropship idea with repair and rearm between each fight

Spoiler

You would need to bring X mechs per player (up to 8 dropship slots were mentioned in one of the CC posts about CW last year).
You would have certain contract or campaign variables including:
- income per battle
- % of lost structure/ammo/armor repaired by contractor
- price for repair and rearm depending on standing to the contractor (see Faction/House bonus above)
Between the battles, you would then get % of the repairs for each round (a round= battle the mech is not used) and can speed up remaining repair and rearm with your CBills.
Repair and Rearm might be limited to certain maximum per round.

Example:
Say, your Atlas got destroyed (Status is 20% total) and the contractor repairs 20% of the mech for free for each round ( battle this mech is not used) and you could repair up to 50% extra per round.
This would make sure you always have something to fight in, even with only basic repairs done, if you don't have many mechs, Dropship slots, or not enough Cbills to repair (because you lost too often).

You decide to bring a Victor for the second battle and pay for maximum available repair from your own or your units CBill bank.
After the second battle, the Atlas (from 20%) will get 20% repaired by the contractor to bring the Atlas structure, armor and ammo up to 40% status.
You decide to also repair the full additional 50% by yourself to a maximum of 90% armor, ammo and structure values.
You can now decide if you want to spend another round for repair, or take the Atlas with 90% repair into the 3rd battle and repair your Victor, or take any other mech from your Dropship slots.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Sweet, sounds good so far.

[Shredhead]

This has brought up several questions for me:


Why are merc units forced into a house? Where's the problem making them a seventh "house" that is allowed to attack planets on behalf of whatever house they want (RP have a contract with at that moment)? You could even make them stick with the first contract's house they take for the whole 24 hour duration (restricting them to defend/attack planets only on behalf of that particular house).
I fight for my moneys, not some powdered whimps sitting their fat asses flat on a throne!


The other big problem I see is modules! We have to be able to swap ALL modules between ALL 4 mechs between the spawn periods, otherwise this will be a huge disincentive to all pilots, especially those who don't own that many! You don't want that greenhorn that just bought his first module to feel disadvantaged after he lost his first mech!

Edited by Shredhead, 25 September 2014 - 12:47 AM.