349 replies to this topic

[Sandtiger]

Carthoo, on 16 October 2014 - 01:56 AM, said:

I believe ya, coz there are kvazillion of people running trial DW (why! why o god!) and even owners od DW had pretty bad builds/ skill even worse than mine.

In "Ravager" build I posted in dw builds, I am able to do 200-300 dmg in games where I die right on start (ambushed by meds, etc), 500-800 if I die in the first half and 1200+ if I survive whole game. Still consider myself nab, coz this is only build Im able to run those numbers with. Yet I see lots of daka 6xcuac5 DWs, lots of energy DWs and lots of full-gauss/lbx builds. Yet most of them are harmless - not sustainable dps, not able to aim, only short range fire abilities....they all seems to play as targets. Yesterday I faced 2 DWs alone and won, coz one hit alpha - missed and overheated, hit alpha second time - missed and died. And the other one was shooting 6 er med lasers only.

Its those people who make DW looks bad - so sure, DW isnt some "killeverything" mech without need of pilot, but you see few people who makes miracles in omniwep DW (aka 2x gaus/ ERLL, 2x LBX/LRM and x lasers) - but really only few. Then you see some pure daka wolfes pilots doing good....and then you got the majority of too carefull, too slow and too...not so good....pilots.

Long story short - wed need some elite pilots in other assaults vs elite pilot in DW to see, if its really the OP king of battlefield many are bit**ing about...

But I dont believe that trollgoyle has any chance of dethroning DW - there are 2 other candidates waiting, and much better suited for the job....Mad Cat and Mad Dog...

I like my Prime variant with Dual Gauss Cannons, and Dual ERPPC's. Before I went that route, I had Dual Gauss, and Five ERML's. I swapped the ERML's when the last nerf hit for 5 MPL's and was murdering the competition. I like the range capacity that my GR, ERPPC variant gives me though, and have been training with that. Your right, their are some DW pilots who shouldn't be behind the stick. However, we were all beginners once too. =]

[TibsVT]

Sandtiger, on 16 October 2014 - 01:00 PM, said:

Your right, their are some DW pilots who shouldn't be behind the stick. However, we were all beginners once too. =]

But some people just can't play a chassis to save their lives no matter how much time they spend in them (I'll be the first to admit I cannot play Light and I struggle in Medium weight chassis). Those people are the ones who are whinging/making everyone else look bad.

[Tesunie]

Carthoo, on 16 October 2014 - 01:56 AM, said:

But I dont believe that trollgoyle has any chance of dethroning DW - there are 2 other candidates waiting, and much better suited for the job....Mad Cat and Mad Dog...

What? The King Crab didn't even make the list? I think (honestly) that the King Crab will be able to give the Direwolf concern. Of course that will depend upon hardpoints, hitboxes, etc. (At least as far as "dethroning" the Direwolf as "King Assault". Not to mention, "King" is part of the King Crab's name... )

[Alek Ituin]

Tesunie, on 16 October 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

What? The King Crab didn't even make the list? I think (honestly) that the King Crab will be able to give the Direwolf concern. Of course that will depend upon hardpoints, hitboxes, etc. (At least as far as "dethroning" the Direwolf as "King Assault". Not to mention, "King" is part of the King Crab's name... )

Assuming the King Crab will have a very slim but wide frontal profile... Should do just fine against Dakka Whales.

It'd be like trying to shoot an edge-on razor blade equipped with twin AC/20's.

[Tesunie]

Alek Ituin, on 16 October 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

Assuming the King Crab will have a very slim but wide frontal profile... Should do just fine against Dakka Whales.

It'd be like trying to shoot an edge-on razor blade equipped with twin AC/20's.

I feel the King Crab will have small(ish) front hotboxes, but because it's basically a low "disc on legs", it will be wide, front and side profile. This will leave the King Crab smaller overall (similar to the Stalker) shorter (easier to get cover, but also can block the arms easier as well), but probably with larger side torsos (I'm thinking it will feel more like a large Stalker with the sides) and susceptible to side attacks more than a front on assault.

Taking a little imaginative guesswork here, I'm thinking the King Crab will be a mech that, if you stare it down, you die. If you attack from a flank or rear (or above)... it's going to have difficulties.

Of course, this is speculation. We wont know for certain anything till December, when it comes out.


Same could be said for the Gargoyle. It's going to be a fast, heavily armored mech. It looks like it will be taller and thinner. Being thinner means it might be able to "dodge" damage that would hit most other mechs of it's size. It's normally easier to land damage on a horizontal axis than on a vertical axis. We humans deal more with side to side than with up and down. Thus, this mech also will have to be a wait and see. It's hitboxes, shape, speed and build options may make this mech a possible "great mech". It's possible, but honestly unlikely (from what I'm seeing). (It probably will just be a good mech, but not one of the "greats", if you know what I mean.)

Edited by Tesunie, 16 October 2014 - 07:20 PM.

[Carthoo]

Tesunie, on 16 October 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

What? The King Crab didn't even make the list? I think (honestly) that the King Crab will be able to give the Direwolf concern. Of course that will depend upon hardpoints, hitboxes, etc. (At least as far as "dethroning" the Direwolf as "King Assault". Not to mention, "King" is part of the King Crab's name... )

Sure, but as you said, we do not know hardpoints of KC, nor anything else. I was talking about mechs we have or DO know. And personally I think, that any mech able to kill DW faster than other 4 gauss DW (2 salvos) would really be too much for the game, since every other mech will die instantly.

[Sandtiger]

KelesK, on 16 October 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

But some people just can't play a chassis to save their lives no matter how much time they spend in them (I'll be the first to admit I cannot play Light and I struggle in Medium weight chassis). Those people are the ones who are whinging/making everyone else look bad.

Kalesk, I feel your pain. I was terrible in lights until I knuckled down and said ok WHAT ONE PILOT CAN DO, ANOTHER DAN DO!!! (plagiarized from the movie "the edge" with Anthony Hopkins, and Alec Baldwin) After a month of intense frustration, I am now a regular zap bang in a light! I actually love piloting them. I just had to train myself, and watch other light pilots to see some of their tricks.

Then I moved to mediums, and I must say. I kick a$$ with them now too. I have since moved on to heavies, and am now past the frustration stage, and in the In your face stage ~Grins.

Keep at it little brother, you will be Carnage Incarnate if you persist. =]

[Carthoo]

Sandtiger, on 17 October 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

Kalesk, I feel your pain. I was terrible in lights until I knuckled down and said ok WHAT ONE PILOT CAN DO, ANOTHER DAN DO!!! (plagiarized from the movie "the edge" with Anthony Hopkins, and Alec Baldwin) After a month of intense frustration, I am now a regular zap bang in a light! I actually love piloting them. I just had to train myself, and watch other light pilots to see some of their tricks.

Then I moved to mediums, and I must say. I kick a$$ with them now too. I have since moved on to heavies, and am now past the frustration stage, and in the In your face stage ~Grins.

Keep at it little brother, you will be Carnage Incarnate if you persist. =]

Well good for you, altough I dont believe, that even elite pilot in heavy/med can take down good pilot in best assaults... . Btw I found the thing I was doing bad in light and meds - staying in fight, trying to do dmg, instead hit&run. Still cant pilot them to some use

[Pariah Devalis]

Tell that to the two Direwolves that thought they had cornered my widdle stormcrow. Final tally: 1.5 dead whales to one missing left torso and arm. As in, I killed one, ripped half of another off, and still kept fighting even with most of my guns gone for the rest of the game. Pilot skill is an incredible equalizer.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 October 2014 - 07:58 AM.

[Sandtiger]

Carthoo, on 17 October 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Well good for you, altough I dont believe, that even elite pilot in heavy/med can take down good pilot in best assaults... . Btw I found the thing I was doing bad in light and meds - staying in fight, trying to do dmg, instead hit&run. Still cant pilot them to some use

I hear you. I'm not going to lie, its tough. But it can be done. You just have to play to your mechs strength's and equip it correctly. Not to mention your load out will never be perfect for EVERY scenario. Also, targeting & knowing where to hit them is essential, use of terrain, use of cover, etc... I'm not talking about going head to head in Mediums, and Heavies. (unless you can safely deliver the killing blow) But you can pilot them to multiple kills and excellent scores. =]

Yeah, I have to use hit and run tactics as well. Dodging in and out of cover to shoot them before they can return fire works well too.

Pariah Devalis, on 17 October 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

Tell that to the two Direwolves that thought they had cornered my widdle stormcrow. Final tally: 1.5 dead whales to one missing left torso and arm. As in, I killed one, ripped half of another off, and still kept fighting even with most of my guns gone for the rest of the game. Pilot skill is an incredible equalizer.

Well Spoken! "There is no substitute for experience" (Sean Connery in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade)

[Tesunie]

Carthoo, on 17 October 2014 - 02:30 AM, said:

Sure, but as you said, we do not know hardpoints of KC, nor anything else. I was talking about mechs we have or DO know. And personally I think, that any mech able to kill DW faster than other 4 gauss DW (2 salvos) would really be too much for the game, since every other mech will die instantly.

Though my Banshee 3E doesn't have the single pin point high damage alpha, it's dual AC5s, dual AC2s and dual PPCs seem to make good work of a Direwolf. Seems to feel (to me at least) that I am at least on an even standing with them...

It's not necessarily the mechs or the loadouts that are the problem. It's the High Pin Point Damage Alpha (HPPDA) that is the problem (with no real clear solutions capable of working in the game right now). When someone can sink a single alpha into their target, and kill a Locust with a std engine by hitting their arm/sidetorso/leg and having the remaining damage destroy the CT as well... or a med mech gets hit with that same alpha to the chest and go from pristine to dead... That's more so the problem.

I do hate to say it, but even with just the minimum hardpoints for it's build (2B, 1E, 1M for many of them), a King Crab can do a good job emulating the same HPPDA with dual Gauss (or AC20) and a PPC. If they give 2E (which I'm confident they will on some variant)... I imagine hardpoints like this for some of them (pure guesswork):
2E 2B 2M (0000)
1E 4B 1M (0001?)
1E 2B 4M (Can't recall designation at moment, but the dual SSRM2 version.)
(Or some combination of the above)

I see the Dual AC20, LL, LRM15 variant being one. I hope to see the Dual Gauss, LL, LRM15 (I think that's it) (and I hope it has 4B total in the arms). I also suspect we will see the variant with dual SSRM2s in it (the 2-4M hardpoint option) (Sorry, I'm on my backup computer as I move, so I don't have all my data a click away right now).


As for mechs we currently know about going into the game, for hadpoints and stuff. The Timberwolf is a good general platform. When it comes to assaults, the Direwolf is probably king at this time because of it's weapon payload and armor values. (As tough as an Atlas, with more weapons). If it has a pilot that can compensate for it's speed, and a team that works around and with the Direwolf... It can be a tough mech to beat at this time.

Edited by Tesunie, 17 October 2014 - 08:58 AM.

[Carthoo]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 October 2014 - 07:56 AM, said:

Tell that to the two Direwolves ...

As I said before, lots of people unable to use DW/ lots of bad builds. Not to say, they couldnt aim according to your dmg. Or thought it good idea to get some "componnent destroyed" for money/ achievment. You wouldnt survive solo fight with my hybrid daka wolf - not a chance in stormcrow. Not to mention quadro gauss/ lbx/ ac 10-20 builds in hands of good pilot. I meet lots of guys like this, but congrats, you surely needed to use amazing mooves.

Tesunie, on 17 October 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Though my Banshee 3E doesn't have the single pin point high damage alpha...

Yup, Ill give you that - lots of people underestimate Banshees durability/ payback abilities - I used to do the same. No problem to solo any banshee in "Ravager", but if the Banshes pilots is good, DW is gonna have some serious dmg.

Otherwise agreed, said it too. Mad Cat/ Mad Dog - perfect heavies.

Dw needs to be agressive (not overagressive tho) - nothing worse to see, than coward in DW shooting from second line. Yet without at least SOME team support. DW dies eventually. Even if pilot does miracles. One of my game enemy team was pretty average (whole team match score 20-50, needed whole lance to match my match score and dmg)....yet my team was completely useless and camping. Seconds after enemies realized, that my team wont stop running/ getting out of camp, me and my only support (Victor) were overrun in few secs. Strength in numbers is best one No mech, not even behemot, king crab etc can fight 8-9 mechs at once...no matter what class they are

[Pariah Devalis]

Carthoo, on 17 October 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

As I said before, lots of people unable to use DW/ lots of bad builds. Not to say, they couldnt aim according to your dmg. Or thought it good idea to get some "componnent destroyed" for money/ achievment. You wouldnt survive solo fight with my hybrid daka wolf - not a chance in stormcrow. Not to mention quadro gauss/ lbx/ ac 10-20 builds in hands of good pilot. I meet lots of guys like this, but congrats, you surely needed to use amazing mooves.

Yes, but was not your premiss:

Carthoo, on 17 October 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

Well good for you, altough I dont believe, that even elite pilot in heavy/med can take down good pilot in best assaults.

Considering one was a Penta-UAC5, 3 ERMLas Dakkawolf and the other appeared to be boating UAC10s on Industrial, you have a pair of high end assaults with good pilots (they did not miss, but I did not give them many chances to hit me) being taken out by a better pilot in a much smaller, far out-toned matchup. I am not even saying I am elite. I am saying that whether or not I am, pilotage overruled superior assault mechs.

I am simply attempting to disprove that statement. Incidentally, I hope I recorded that.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 October 2014 - 01:23 PM.

[TibsVT]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 October 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

Considering one was a Penta-UAC5, 3 ERMLas Dakkawolf and the other appeared to be boating UAC10s on Industrial, you have a pair of high end assaults with good pilots (they did not miss, but I did not give them many chances to hit me) being taken out by a better pilot in a much smaller, far out-toned matchup. I am not even saying I am elite. I am saying that whether or not I am, pilotage overruled superior assault mechs.

I am simply attempting to disprove that statement. Incidentally, I hope I recorded that.

I would also like to back Pariah here by noting that Dire Wolves cannot manoeuvre quickly enough to hit the more nimble Meds if they are hit from behind or unawares.

[Carthoo]

And thats why I consider myself NAB. I can AIM, I can do tremendous DMG aiming to KILL/ destroy crusial components (primary weps, IS xl mechs toros), not to do DMG - but I die a lot coz moving to place where I can be ***** by meds/ lrms boats, or outmaneuvered. Or I loose grasp of the situation and die coz that (overlooking enemy ecm covered lance for example).

In my book they were nabs like me, not anywhere near good pilot - pursuing much faster mech to location, where he can use his mech to the MAX, while they can only wait to be *****.

I dont know the match situation when this happened (if they were last, desicively outgunned, wanted kill...), yet according to what you said, you probably are elite pilot or had really lucky moment - at least elite stormcrow pilot.

For me, good assault pilot has overall knowledge of all mechs capabilities, doesnt loose knowledge about actual situation, does know maps and good/ bad places and perfectly knows his mech and its abilities - and uses them. These guys didnt - or you were that much better.

Edit: Long story short - If light mech gets my DW, its team fault they let him. If med guy gets me when I PURSUED him....I suck. Just my opinion, dont take it Im forcing it on you please.

Edited by Carthoo, 18 October 2014 - 06:50 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Unfortunately, it seems I did not have the video recorded. :\

In the situation, I was in front of both mechs. I had an alleyway to back into that would cover my mech, but both Dire Wolves were in a perpendicular passage. I engaged them by darting out slightly from cover, placing one Dire Wolf in front of the other to limit their focus fire tremendously, discharged my weapons, and backed up into cover. I proceeded to do this about 4 times before the frontmost Dire Wolf pushed in on me, whereby I accelerated past him, torso twisted, and blew out his center torso. I then charged the enemy Dire Wolf on a trajectory to put myself beside and behind the enemy assault mech and managed to amputate a side torso before he did the same to me.

At that point, reinforcements arrived and he was more distracted with the friendly D-DC beating on his mech than the half stripped Stormcrow with red armor. XD

[FearNotDeath]

So let's start early what quirks are going to be needed to save the Gargoyle?

1.) Weapon's only weight half as much on the gargoyle due to mysterious space technology.

2.) Gargoyle accel/decel is the same as the locust with max engine size.

3.) 30% more armor on each point of armor.

[Tesunie]

FearNotDeath, on 18 October 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

So let's start early what quirks are going to be needed to save the Gargoyle?

1.) Weapon's only weight half as much on the gargoyle due to mysterious space technology.

2.) Gargoyle accel/decel is the same as the locust with max engine size.

3.) 30% more armor on each point of armor.

...

I think you are underestimating what the Gargoyle may be capable of. If it doesn't run well base, then I could see, at most, movement bonuses (faster twist/turn and Acc/Dec), maybe laser weapon cooldown/coolrun and maybe additional armor for it's arms... Maybe.

Of course, we can't gauge the Gargoyle yet because it's not in the game. I'll wait and see how it does once it's in the game. For all we know, it may be a great fast assault mech. (It may even be preferred for pilots who like faster mechs as their assault of choice in CW/Dropship mode...)

[TibsVT]

Tesunie, on 18 October 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

...

I think you are underestimating what the Gargoyle may be capable of. If it doesn't run well base, then I could see, at most, movement bonuses (faster twist/turn and Acc/Dec), maybe laser weapon cooldown/coolrun and maybe additional armor for it's arms... Maybe.

Of course, we can't gauge the Gargoyle yet because it's not in the game. I'll wait and see how it does once it's in the game. For all we know, it may be a great fast assault mech. (It may even be preferred for pilots who like faster mechs as their assault of choice in CW/Dropship mode...)

Please don't feed the troll...

[FearNotDeath]

KelesK, on 18 October 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Please don't feed the troll...

Who's trolling? I've never seen any of these claims of 80kph locusts destroying decent pilots in assault mechs and I've been playing since beta. I assumed I was being trolled by claims of an 80 kph assault mech being fast enough to stick on my side and not take fire back before it kills me.

I do agree about when weight limits are put in game it may find a niche. Isn't the point of this thread to gauge where the gargoyle will be when released? If you don't like negative feelings towards it I don't know what to tell ya maybe get thicker skin.