161 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Because it stands to reason there wont be mention of implants in the TROs or things that arent dealing specifically with the Mechwarrior.

Those rules generally dont cross over.

While your mechwarrior might have a sub dermal implant, and a shock resistence implant, there are no rules in the TT for how that effects a head hit in a mech. The two systems werentvery combatible, and im not saying OMG ACCEPT THE IMPLANT REVOLUTION.

You can use whatever version of the rules you want. Im just saying that they absolutely exist, and you cant just cherry pick part of the lore that supports your argument when theres tons of lore that doesnt.

Thats what happens when you have a thousand different people write up the lore for something.

Edited by KraftySOT, 29 September 2014 - 12:56 PM.

[Zyllos]

3rdworld, on 29 September 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

Both of those. Also add in reinforcing camping, promoting high alpha & high armor mechs, with a dash of Dashi, and a side of nerfed brawling. Lights and mediums not having the life/firepower needed to trade will be for dessert.

If you want to see what your idea is like in practice. Get a Streak mech. Take it into the testing grounds. Shoot at an atlas. That would be your lights and mediums. To see how the dire wolf is effected........well.....I guess just play a match in a dire wolf.

Incorrect, a CoF would never spread as wide as an Assault mech. The CoF is to make weapons hit different locations on a Medium mech and larger sized target while missing on a Light mech sized target.

Plus, this is based on assumption that a player is keeping the crosshair pixel accurate on the CT of a mech. So, through deviations of a CoF and a player not being able to keep the crosshair exact on a location over time (that is important) will introduce spreading of damage while being in control of how much spread happens by the player.

The promotion of camping is a poor argument to not using movement based CoF. What your forgetting is that every mech is limited on how many weapons it can fire before CoF is introduced in a given time period. Thus, while someone is camping, the standing still player only gets the benefit of firing a few weapons with accuracy. Once fired, that benefit is lost for that time period and now that player has lost the position benefit as their target is already moving.

Edited by Zyllos, 29 September 2014 - 01:02 PM.

[KraftySOT]

Also in the manual snippet you posted, they mention Noiesel Summer Games.

Should totally read up on that.

There are implants that help make up for the fact that some people naturally arent that good at differentiating the REAL WORLD from the world thats being fed into their mind via the neurohelmet. Some people are simply more open to the transmissions, and some helmets are better than others, as well as the implants that exist to help make sense of some of the information thats being recieved and sent.

This is why the jacked up Elementals are awesome, and the Word of Blake is awesome.

Not saying this stuff is pure gold or anything...but it exists in the lore, and theres plenty of cases of 'famous mechwarriors' who were discovered to have implants and theres a whole "Olympics" that spawned out of people who can do amazing things with the neuralinterfaces.

When a Javelin throwing contest...is actually throwing a Javelin...thats pretty cool.

Like ... loadermechs...construction mechs...civilian mechs...farm mechs...those have joysticks and no helmet.

[stjobe]

KraftySOT, on 29 September 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

You can use whatever version of the rules you want. Im just saying that they absolutely exist, and you cant just cherry pick part of the lore that supports your argument when theres tons of lore that doesnt.

What I said was that you don't use an implant to "jack in" to your 'mech. You use a neurohelmet that is mainly used for getting some very limited data out of your head (although some even more limited data can also go the other way).

My main contention was actually with your idea about aiming; the Tech Manual is quite specific in several places that all the MechWarrior does is pick the target - which incidentally the 'mech has discovered, identified, and classified - and tell the 'mech when to fire. The 'mech does all the targeting and aiming, which makes a CoF not such an outlandish idea after all.

I mean, we're in a thread about cone of fire and targeting, after all.

[KraftySOT]

Everyone cant just jump into a mech and do a pole vault. Or even stop himself from Risky Business sliding across pavement. But with an implant, a good helmet, and some skill, one can probably do a hand stand in a light mech.

Youll never see that in a video game. Though Titanfall is alot closer to what a mech in the hands of a good pilot with an implant, or a genetically bred sub dermal implanted clan pilot, would look like in a Hunchback.

Maybe I should have added that theres various levels of 'jacked in' that a Mechwarrior might be. A green mechwarrior, with naturally bad attributes, and a bad helmet...your 5/6 pilot...that mech is doing most of the work.

A 2-1/2? A 1/1?

They could dance ballet on ice in an Atlas.

[KraftySOT]

stjobe, on 29 September 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

What I said was that you don't use an implant to "jack in" to your 'mech. You use a neurohelmet that is mainly used for getting some very limited data out of your head (although some even more limited data can also go the other way).

My main contention was actually with your idea about aiming; the Tech Manual is quite specific in several places that all the MechWarrior does is pick the target - which incidentally the 'mech has discovered, identified, and classified - and tell the 'mech when to fire. The 'mech does all the targeting and aiming, which makes a CoF not such an outlandish idea after all.

I mean, we're in a thread about cone of fire and targeting, after all.

As said, theres one case of an implant jack in the IS directly to the brain stem, known, and all implants use WAN connections otherwise...unless youre talking about clanners, elementals, manie domini word of blake, some pirates, and a couple famous mechwarriors.

So its not unheard of. I think we can agree on that. I didnt mean to say, that every jack was a physical jack, but every pilot is definitally 'jacked in' as the definition goes. A WAN jack in, is still a jack in. Even if theres no physical connection. It doesnt have to mean neuromancer style net jacks in the back of your neck (but as said that exists, just only that one guy supposedly)

I just like nerding out with you because A) youre one of my favorite posters and more posts makes meh happy, and B.) you know this stuff like the back of your hand.

Im down with a COF because its at least more TT than what we have now. I just dont think its the easiest solution.

[KraftySOT]

To be 'jacked in' all you have to do is be transmitting and RECEIVING "thoughts"

You dont need a physical connection, though in the sci fi world that seems to be the most 'effective'.

In the mechwarrior/BT universe, that has alot of levels of vagueness. But it runs the gambit from, no wetwire, all the way up to directly to the brain stem, with various degrees of proliferation. The clans its all their front line troops. In the IS, its a single inventor, and then its up to the individual whether he's going get a surgery and an implant, or rely on his natural ability.

Well then of course WOB...who pretty much showed it the positives and negatives. Same with clan SJ that had integration addicts...a clan with a drug problem.

Edited by KraftySOT, 29 September 2014 - 01:22 PM.

[3rdworld]

Zyllos, on 29 September 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

Incorrect, a CoF would never spread as wide as an Assault mech. The CoF is to make weapons hit different locations on a Medium mech and larger sized target while missing on a Light mech sized target.

Plus, this is based on assumption that a player is keeping the crosshair pixel accurate on the CT of a mech. So, through deviations of a CoF and a player not being able to keep the crosshair exact on a location over time (that is important) will introduce spreading of damage while being in control of how much spread happens by the player.

The promotion of camping is a poor argument to not using movement based CoF. What your forgetting is that every mech is limited on how many weapons it can fire before CoF is introduced in a given time period. Thus, while someone is camping, the standing still player only gets the benefit of firing a few weapons with accuracy. Once fired, that benefit is lost for that time period and now that player has lost the position benefit as their target is already moving.

So does splash.

blah blah i calculate TT hit tables, while ignoring things like leading a target and bullet drop. Do you seriously play at a level where people just stand and look at you? Or is that the game you want to play?

No, actually it is accurate. All i have to do is, twist away, while you run and still can't hit anything near damaging. And limiting weapons? Now we have ghost heat soon ghost accuracy. That is going to be totally hard to circumvent using a few hard hitting weapons over many smaller ones. We can test this one as well, you run at me shooting lbxs, and I will stand still using gauss.

Edited by 3rdworld, 30 September 2014 - 09:04 AM.

[Tombstoner]

I see all these things as something to obtain in game. no reason the game cant have different levels of neuro helmet. its just the game doesn't let secondary items affect shot precision very well. the game lacks a mechanic for this sort of thing and why the targeting computer simplistically gives a damage boost for no good reason.

Artemus altering missile spreed is more about converting LRM's into FLD pin point weapons where all missiles hit the same section and aim for the CT.

[Eddrick]

[Tombstoner]

3rdworld, on 29 September 2014 - 02:14 PM, said:

So does splash.

blah blah i calculate TT hit tables, while ignoring things like leading a target and bullet drop. Do you seriously play at a level where people just stand and look at you? Or is that the game you want to play?

No, actually it is accurate. All i have to do is, twist away, while you run and still can't hit anything near damaging. We can test this one too. And limiting weapons? Now we have ghost heat soon ghost accuracy. That is going to be totally hard to circumvent using a few hard hitting weapons over many smaller ones. We can test this one as well, you run at me shooting lbxs, and I will stand still using gauss.

How does leading your target and bullet drop affect lasers? This is where the cof allows for inter weapon balancing. They would be highly accurate along with gauss. Conversely ppc's wouldn't be as accurate nor would auto cannons.
see what happened right there i cut the meta in half.

The point is the game needs an additional degree of freedom for game balancing. Weapons having more or less accuracy and precision is expected by most gamers. Its detrimental to the new player experience. just like full PVP is in .5 security space in EVE.

Also torso changing is a gimmick that some mechs enjoy due to art work and hit point load outs. Nothing to do with player skill. skill at what turning left and right....

[Adiuvo]

Tombstoner, on 29 September 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Also torso changing is a gimmick that some mechs enjoy due to art work and hit point load outs. Nothing to do with player skill. skill at what turning left and right....

oh dear.

[1453 R]

Tombstoner, on 29 September 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Also torso changing is a gimmick that some mechs enjoy due to art work and hit point load outs. Nothing to do with player skill. skill at what turning left and right....

Wow. Just...wow. And the ultracomps think I'm terrible...

[Mcgral18]

Tombstoner, on 29 September 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

Also torso changing is a gimmick that some mechs enjoy due to art work and hit point load outs. Nothing to do with player skill. skill at what turning left and right....

Well, feel free to do that. The WubShee loves mechs who do that.

It makes practicing those headshots so much easier.


Instant, perfect convergence is an issue. Many solutions have been offered over the years. Some are viable.

[notjoe]

[Psydotek]

I'm not sure a cone of fire would/could be appropriate.

However, I fully support an expanding reticule. Weapon fire would still remain accurate, but you would have a harder time aiming when the circle/crosshair are expanded halfway across your screen.

[Tombstoner]

1453 R, on 29 September 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Wow. Just...wow. And the ultracomps think I'm terrible...

Didn't say i didn't do it. i just hold it in low regard, but seriously it has a range of effectiveness that varies based on the mech. That is a simple fact.

Awesome vs. stalker comes to mind. Please some one argue that torso twisting is equally effective in those mechs. Is that really the game you want to play. where mech selection comes down to how art work impacts torso twisting and how it affects damage distribution and thus survivability as long as its got the hard points.

Then people wonder at the lack of mech variation and cry about the clans. guess what toso speed is based on engine size so yea the TW is going to be one of the fastest in the game. and people still think pin point convergence is not an issue and i expect regard torso twisting as the height of kanly.

[Pht]

KraftySOT, on 28 September 2014 - 05:17 PM, said:

To be fair...youre 'jacked in' to your mechwarrior.

You aren't. That's not how the neurohelmet works.

Quote

The way a Stinger aims its medium laser, is you think about moving the arm with the mount, and aim it the same way you would if you had a laser strapped to your actual arm.

No.

"5.4 The limitations of the Neurohelmet Control Interface
While the Neurohelmet can help translate the MechWarrior's basic intentions to the BattleMech and give a small amount of sensory feedback to the MechWarrior, they aren't capable of real-time "mind reading" that would be necessary in order to directly control a BattleMech's movements or weapons systems - nor can they input enough data to a MechWarrior to replace the cockpit information systems.

The first Star League could not make helmets capable of this and neither can the Clans."

I can back all of this up with stuff from the authoritative source on the topic.

Not even the DNI in either it's old or it's current form, the VDNI, or the clan's EI implant are capable of this.

Quote

The mech is as accurate as you are.

It is not as accurate as mwo (or mw4/3/etc) have had it.

Again, the people that control the IP have pointed out in the official forum for asking questions of them, the people who write and control what BT is, that the hit location tables (which is where the hit percentages in the OP came from) represent the battlemech's abilities, and they are not as precise as you are saying. Furthermore, in none of the stories are they that accurate.

more later.

[KraftySOT]

Pht, on 30 September 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

You aren't. That's not how the neurohelmet works.



No.

"5.4 The limitations of the Neurohelmet Control Interface
While the Neurohelmet can help translate the MechWarrior's basic intentions to the BattleMech and give a small amount of sensory feedback to the MechWarrior, they aren't capable of real-time "mind reading" that would be necessary in order to directly control a BattleMech's movements or weapons systems - nor can they input enough data to a MechWarrior to replace the cockpit information systems.

The first Star League could not make helmets capable of this and neither can the Clans."

I can back all of this up with stuff from the authoritative source on the topic.

Not even the DNI in either it's old or it's current form, the VDNI, or the clan's EI implant are capable of this.



It is not as accurate as mwo (or mw4/3/etc) have had it.

Again, the people that control the IP have pointed out in the official forum for asking questions of them, the people who write and control what BT is, that the hit location tables (which is where the hit percentages in the OP came from) represent the battlemech's abilities, and they are not as precise as you are saying. Furthermore, in none of the stories are they that accurate.

more later.

Disagree with the first, totally agree with the last bit.

You dont have to have a DNI to be jacked in. Implants exist. Youre ignoring Manie Domini, and most of the Stackpole books. EI DOES work that way, and many mechwarriors have had implants that help make sense of the transmitted data from the neurohelmet. Star league helmets were worse, not better, than current helmets. I think you misunderstood that.

Being a 'medium laser expert' or a 'sniper' or a 'hot shot' is an implant, as well as an earned skill.

Youre completely ignoring the Mechwarrior RPG rules.

Its like the Major always says...INFORMATION IS AMMUNITION

Edited by KraftySOT, 30 September 2014 - 07:10 AM.

[KraftySOT]

And honestly since the IP is so convoluted with different authors and owners...the parts that really dont matter, like neurohelmets and joysticks, are the most *****.

There aint no joysticks or sensor screens in the cartoon...theres plenty of artwork in the TROs where the pilot has no helmet at all...theres DNI artwork yet only one guy did it? The clan artists have disagreed over what their implants look like...some its a hardjark, others put them in giant test tubes, some have the tattoos...

Its open for interpretation. If you want to go by the FASA definition, I wont knock you for it. But by 3067, DNIs are everywhere, clanners are all wired up, elementals have been wired up since before 3000 AD, and theres a plethora of mechwarriors with implants and who operate neurohelmets to varying degrees of skill...some of whom, participate in the Olympic like games on Noiesel.

The only way youre making a mech pole vault (an event) is with serious skill and implants, assisting the connection.

This is the whole reason the clans do what they do, and Xaing was working with DNIs and the elementals use DNIs....you have more control over your mech.

The only reason in the lore, people dont do it, is personal fear, addiction, cost, and the stigma attached. Its clearly desirable.

Also dont forget Smoke Jaguar had a drug addict epidemic because of "integration addiction"

Youre really glossing over how prolific this technology was and is to the BT universe...it just doesnt matter AT ALL in the TT rules.

Until youre doing the Mechwarrior RPG and getting mugged in alleys, no one gives a damn about a neurohelmet. Its all abstracted.

Edited by KraftySOT, 30 September 2014 - 07:25 AM.