If there was no skill gap in this game I would possibly agree with the sig.
Spreading damage is the goal of the person being shot, putting it into one location is the goal of the shooter. Knowing movement and twisting to avoid having those 2 second side core episodes is a skill just as much as hitting the CT or ST consistently. Adding any type of forced missing de-emphasizes both the aiming and the movement of both the trigger man and the target. My opinion for what it is worth.
Also forced missing using weapons with 4 second cooldowns would be incredibly frustrating.
Give lighter Mech enough agility to dodge a shot they see comeing or torso twist to place a shot they see comeing where they want it to hit. Yes, it blers the line between Mech and Mecha. But, if you want both sides to be in the players control. There is very little choice.
It would also, shift balance away from Assault Mechs. Because, all that heavy firepower means very little if the target if dodging your shots.
+1 for parallel firing arcs based on where the weapons are on the chassis. If specific variants get an unexpected buff with this, a few negative quirks will bring them in line.
Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure PGI has settled and balanced around pinpoint convergence for so long that actually expecting them to take a few steps back and try something entirely new while they STILL haven't released CW is farfetched. I'd very much like to see pinpoint convergence removed and TTK of mechs increased but I don't believe it is happening any time soon...
Moreover, I'd also like to add that it wouldn't hurt if they globally increased the weapon cooldown and general feel and bulkiness of the heavier mechs and weapons. I'd like to see AC20s, especially the IS one to rock my mech backwards after each shot, I want Light mechs that can't be one shotted at all but cannot also rear torso kill someone in 2 seconds. I want to see Assaults pounding each other for a full minute to bring one down not 5 seconds. I want to see Assaults struggling to kill fast Light therefore relying on their team's Mediums to do the job as it should be. A slow brutal, mech pounding action, not a Call of Duty headshot competition. That's what I want to see.
I didn't have to assume that you failed to understand it - you exhibited that you had: "Suggesting that what you've presented is not inherently unpredictable" if a thing is inherently unpredictable - than it can't be predicted in any way - macro, micro, you name it. Yes, I presumed you hadn't read the whole post; because of your missing the point; even if you disagreed with it.
I wasn't going to post again, because I don't think you're interested in listening to anyone who disagrees with you, but here we are. I'm going to be frank - I don't think you understand statistics. Truly random circumstances are totally unpredictable on the level of an individual test, and pseudo-random circumstances like those generated for the purposes of games like this one are functionally close enough to fit this criteria. On the scale of hundreds or thousands of instances, the frequency of a particular outcome can be predicted. So yes, something can be predictable in some scales, but not others.
However, since it's the result of one test at a time that matters for the purposes of this game, the fact that your system uses a PRNG to determine where individual hits land means that the results of an individual salvo are inherently unpredictable.
Pht, on 28 September 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:
You're absolutely right. I didn't post the math or the rules they work with. At this point, it's hard enough to get people to understand that human aiming skill and human choices WILL be the factors that control gameplay outcomes. The OP is pretty much strictly an example of gameplay witht he 'Mech's weapons handling performance put into the game, as it should be. The exact specifics are in another post I made a while back in the suggestions forum - a post I need to update with a few corrections.
I think this is the key - you've explained the end result of the system you'd like to see without explaining how the system works, or how all this information will be conveyed to someone actually playing the game. A cone of fire system - for all its faults - is at least intuitive, and easy to represent on a HUD. If I'm misunderstanding the system that you're presenting - and by all indications, I'm not the only one - the onus is yours to take the time to explain it, since your OP clearly fails. Being snide and telling people that they fail to understand your genius without explaining further helps no one, least of all you.
I've explained it to you before, you're not "jacked in" to your 'mech, and it's the 'mech doing the aiming, not you:
(Tech Manual, p. 40)
(Tech Manual, p.42)
Not according to Sarna or the books. The neurohelmet can both send and receive, and you can actually feel where your extremities (the mechs arms and legs) are, and have input into those processes, depending on your ability or a surgical implant or a direct link (though only one person that anyone knows of, actually attached it to the brain stem)
Some people are more adapt, some are less. Some helmets are better, some are worse. Its more than just aiming a joystick, which almost no mech contains by our time in the timeline. You have the ability to lean in to shots, or pick up clubs, lay prone, hop over an obstacle, fist fight, trip, grapple, etc...there is a degree of the mech doing it itself, but you are assisting and then beyond that, controlling the mech.
Aiming isnt a matter of moving a crosshair (a crosshair thats attached to torso movement) with a joystick onto the target.
Its a matter of moving your eye point, with an attached crosshair, to a target, and the mech doing its best, with your assistance, to make those shots happen. Depending on your helmet and level of skill, or having the implant, (skill implants came with Maxtech? im not sure, but I think its in the Mechwarrior RPG rules first edition) you have more or less control over that process.
Like how Stephen Hawking communicates with people. Via eye movement.
Thats how you aim. But with a helmet on that can send information to your brain that cause nerve endings to activate giving you a feel for where your Stinger's weapon in his hand is, and you can assist, or even completely control, that arm, and that aim point.
How else would you trip a mech? Or grapple? Or fist fight? Or use a chainsaw or a hatchet? Load a piece of rebar into your gauss rifle?
Do anything that the mechs no "programmed" to do, and requires direct input from the pilot?
And by "control stick"
They basically mean a wii remote.
Unfortunately:
Mechs act like Robotech mechs brah.
Activision made you soft St Jobe
I still love your posts and think youre great, I just disagree.
And I think this idea while good, is overly convoluted, and id just rather see weapons in Torsos not converge, and weapons in arms act exactly like they do now.
Weapons, especially in high points on torsos...are already overly powerful. Weapons in arms SHOULD be better and more useful, yet come at the risk of being in the arm.
And notice the helms dont even have visors.
Theres no HUD.
Its the helmet sending that information straight to your brain. Youre seeing the hud in your eye, via the transmissions from the helmet. Its not like a modern apache helicopter where the hud is on a visor, and its not like Korea or Vietnam in a fighter plane where the hud is on a piece of glass infront of your optical sight.
Edited by KraftySOT, 29 September 2014 - 09:52 AM.
Theres only one case (known) of a hard wire jack, but every mechwarrior is 'jacked in' to their mech. Transmitting and receiving directly to the brain is whats referred to as "jacked in" you dont have to physically be plugged in...though clearly that helped the old doctor.
Here I just pulled some random screenshot off google
See here with the medium lasers, how the two in the arms are converging, and are firing at a different point than the lasers in the torso. Thats fine. Keep that.
See the torso lasers converging.
Stop that. Thats ridiculous. The left laser should be firing as straight forward as the near center line laser. What is it doing? Rotating in its mount?
Problem solved.
Edited by KraftySOT, 29 September 2014 - 10:09 AM.
Theres only one case (known) of a hard wire jack, but every mechwarrior is 'jacked in' to their mech. Transmitting and receiving directly to the brain is whats referred to as "jacked in" you dont have to physically be plugged in...though clearly that helped the old doctor.
Here I just pulled some random screenshot off google
See here with the medium lasers, how the two in the arms are converging, and are firing at a different point than the lasers in the torso. Thats fine. Keep that.
See the torso lasers converging.
Stop that. Thats ridiculous. The left laser should be firing as straight forward as the near center line laser. What is it doing? Rotating in its mount?
Problem solved.
The problem is then that any mechs that mount many weapons in arms will be much more valuable over mechs that mount weapons in torsos. But maybe that isn't an issue...
The problem is then that any mechs that mount many weapons in arms will be much more valuable over mechs that mount weapons in torsos. But maybe that isn't an issue...
Seeing that mechs with most of their mounts in the arms are already at a disadvantage and that wouldnt really change drastically (being that the least armored is the arm and theyre the easiest to strip half the weapons from) I dont think thats a problem at all.
A Nova SHOULD be a powerful choice, but a risky one. Even with non converging torso weapons the widest spread on a mech would be the Awesome (hes just so wide) at just a few meters. Easy enough at close range to take away half the Nova's firepower in a single alpha. As it is people seem to avoid the arm heavy mechs. A little boost doesnt hurt anyone.
I pilot a Banshee mostly so I know what im asking for.
A Jagermech doesnt change, a Nova doesnt change. Just the poptart capable mechs change. All their weapons dont hit the exact same spot anymore, but theyre still very close.
Its subtle, its easy to change, and it has a huge impact on gameplay and TTK, but still feels subtle, and doesnt punish anyone unduly.
I really hate when people state that removing convergence removes skill. If we go to a RNG it means you can't always predict exactly where you will hit, but it also means that the more skilled player will still be putting more shots on target than the non-skilled. So net change is very little.
If you remove convergence the the person more skilled at pinpoint aiming will be better able to manage their shots than the person who is less skilled. For one they will be able to quickly adjust aim slightly in order to chain fire different weapons and have them all hit the same location while unskilled players might be alpha striking in an attempt to get something to hit the enemy.
In fact it might take more skill without convergence to get all your weapons on target at range so if you really are arguing against RNG because you believe it removes skill then you should be arguing for non-convergence since it will require more.
I mean face to face a Banshee against a Nova, im going to still hit mostly the CT at close range if I want too, but I now that my farthest out pulse lasers arent going to hit the ct, theyre going to hit the LT of the enemy because im firing from the RT with those, and the mounts are out almost to the arm.
But a smaller target like a Shadowhawk...or A commando...im going to plaster his RT, CT, and LT because the hit boxes fort those mechs are rather thin, instead of just exploding them with a single alpha. A commando will still have lost his RT from my AC20, and his LT and CT will be mostly nuked...but not dead. Big difference.
And in the sake of science...it probably wouldnt help the Direwhale or Catapult at all...their CT is as wide as my entire torso. So theres that.
BUT IT HELPS...and it isnt complicated, and it isnt hard to do, and it isnt aiming with dice.
Stop that. Thats ridiculous. The left laser should be firing as straight forward as the near center line laser. What is it doing? Rotating in its mount?
Problem solved.
I always envisioned torso weapons as being in limited-transverse mantlets, rather than being literally bolted down. I mean, we had the technology to do that in 1918, but we don't in 3049?
A Jagermech doesnt change, a Nova doesnt change. Just the poptart capable mechs change. All their weapons dont hit the exact same spot anymore, but theyre still very close.
What about the Non-Hero Victor and Heavy Metal? All of the weapons they use for Poptarting are in the Arms.
The problem is then that any mechs that mount many weapons in arms will be much more valuable over mechs that mount weapons in torsos. But maybe that isn't an issue...
It shouldn't be. Arms are easily removed which is why Boomcats/Gausscats were so annoying for so long as you had to drill out the CT or both RT/LT to disarm them. Things like Dragons/Centurions would have their arms ripped off fairly quickly. This was also back when there was not instant pinpoint convergence but a delay in it and the closer weapons were to the CT the quicker they seemed to be on target. Double whammy against armed mechs. Add in that armed mechs can't twist as far as the ones that typically don't have movable arms like Jenners/Catapults, Stalkers, and such and you have another disadvantage. They can bring their arm weapons around further than the others, but only one arm and the weapons there.
KraftySOT, on 29 September 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:
Seeing that mechs with most of their mounts in the arms are already at a disadvantage and that wouldnt really change drastically (being that the least armored is the arm and theyre the easiest to strip half the weapons from) I dont think thats a problem at all.
A Nova SHOULD be a powerful choice, but a risky one. Even with non converging torso weapons the widest spread on a mech would be the Awesome (hes just so wide) at just a few meters. Easy enough at close range to take away half the Nova's firepower in a single alpha. As it is people seem to avoid the arm heavy mechs. A little boost doesnt hurt anyone.
I pilot a Banshee mostly so I know what im asking for.
A Jagermech doesnt change, a Nova doesnt change. Just the poptart capable mechs change. All their weapons dont hit the exact same spot anymore, but theyre still very close.
Its subtle, its easy to change, and it has a huge impact on gameplay and TTK, but still feels subtle, and doesnt punish anyone unduly.
I have to agree and this is the main reason I have believed arms should help with convergence but other mounts would not. Arms are not a huge advantage and any weaponry that needs to be place therein becomes more vulnerable. Remember people, one of the first things people comment on when talking about hit boxes is if the arms are big enough to soak damage for the torsos or not meaning many players consider the arm's value to be as shields.
I always envisioned torso weapons as being in limited-transverse mantlets, rather than being literally bolted down. I mean, we had the technology to do that in 1918, but we don't in 3049?
nb4 "mantlets are lostech"
Actually...
Its funny you mention the Char...the front gun cant traverse left and right at all, not even a degree...it can only traverse up and down.
The upper gun can also only traverse up and down and the entire turret rotates.
Also if you hit up Strat Ops page 193...youre going to see it clarified in the quirks, that a marauder cant torso twist, his weapons are just on mounts.
This is true for alot of mechs, however no mech we have but!:
The wolfie has a turret, that can totally converge with the arm weapons.
Clearly those will never converge.
Joseph Mallan, on 29 September 2014 - 10:52 AM, said:
to be fair. That isn't the official Hunchback art.
Those two PPCs will never meet. You really gotta pick which side to aim your arm ppc with, so those two hit the same spot, and then other one is whacking an arm or torso.
This wouldreally benefit this game alot.
With all the torso twisting, running, hiding behind cover, and such, itd help mechs survive just a tad longer...and barely change anyones gameplay that much...OTHER than the people with the huge pin point alpha strikes.
Would the Nova still have one? Sure...as it should.
And seriously when you look at the size of these weapons, the size of them on the mechs, how much other crap is in the mech, with ammo, heat sinks, etc...there isnt ROOM for mounts that traverse.
The mechs that have them, CLEARLY say so in the lore, the TROs, the new rules, the quirks...its ridiculous we cant get that here to stop the poptarts, instead of JJ nerfs and ghost heat, that really didnt fix the issue.
Edited by KraftySOT, 29 September 2014 - 11:04 AM.
Cof/unpredictable Randomness would cause the epeen circle strokers to run from this game.
Do I think we need something to fix the Pinpoint alpha at every range. Yes. Cof/unpredictable Randomness is not the fix though.
I'm for an adjustable convergence. you want to snipe far out you need to set the convergence far out. So a mech gets in close to you, those guass rifles that are ranged to 1300 will be hitting spread out on him.
Example: Wing mounted machine guns on American fighters were set to converge between 200 - 300 yards.
Most WWII fighter sims allow you to adjust that convergence to suit your taste.
Edited by Jacob Side, 29 September 2014 - 11:15 AM.
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3rdworld, on 29 September 2014 - 07:48 AM, said:
