337 replies to this topic

[Quxudica]

Wolfways, on 20 September 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

I do understand it. You take the amount of heat you generate, remove the amount that your heat sinks dissipate, then add the remainder to your heat scale taking any modifiers indicated.
But in MWO your heat sinks don't instantly negate an amount of heat but instead dissipate over time, while weapons cause spike heat.

Which is why, to implement a proper heat system with penalties, they will need to design a means to cause a gradual curve in heat generation and heat dissipation. It's a complicated question, but not remotely impossible.

[KraftySOT]

I understand everyone doesnt want TT. Some do. Some dont. Some dont care.

So a compromise is fine.

At least while at a run, or extreme distances or something. Im surely not suggesting that your shots are firing all over the place...just a slightly larger cone than they are now. So that at the longest range, its at least more challenging to hit the same location with all your weapons.

[Wolfways]

Quxudica, on 20 September 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

Which is why, to implement a proper heat system with penalties, they will need to design a means to cause a gradual curve in heat generation and heat dissipation. It's a complicated question, but not remotely impossible.

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure i remember someone from PGI saying that putting a system into MWO where the game has to take every weapon and heat sink into account and constantly calculate the increases and decreases would cause a lot of stress for the game system.
I could be wrong though...

[Mystere]

Quxudica, on 20 September 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Think this is the common misconception people have when people speak against convergence. While there may be some that want bloom fire randomness, I'd wager more argue what I've advocated: Shots from your weapons should always go to the same points, those points should just not be the same. If you have a PPC in your RT and a PPC in your LT and you fire them both at the same time the two projectiles should never converge together, there should always be space between them. This means in order to hit a target in the same spot with both you need to aim for the RT PPC then adjust your mech and aim for the Second PPC, or simply accept that your simultaneous PPC shots are going to hit more than one location on an eney mech.

additionally, Mechs that have multiple HPs in the same location that technically fire from the same muzzle (a failing of the art design imo) then the cross hair should enlarge based on the number of weapons. If you have six lasers in your arms and fire all at once you are hitting a larger area on the target than if you fired one or two weapons. But nothing about it is random.

These assume that the weapons only fire straight. They could as well have been set in the Mechlab or factory to converge at some distance.

[Quxudica]

Mystere, on 20 September 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

These assume that the weapons only fire straight. They could as well have been set in the Mechlab or factory to converge at some distance.

They weren't though, at least not remotely to the degree they are in MWO. In the BT universe you aimed your weapons individually for the most part. However even if this were the case, they would only converge at that one predetermined fixed range, short of that range they would not converge and long of that range firing lines would have crossed and started to spread again.

[KraftySOT]

Mystere, on 20 September 2014 - 03:21 PM, said:

These assume that the weapons only fire straight. They could as well have been set in the Mechlab or factory to converge at some distance.

Then they would converge only at that set distance and not dynamically.

This would work like War Thunder or War Birds convergence system.

Wolfways, on 20 September 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure i remember someone from PGI saying that putting a system into MWO where the game has to take every weapon and heat sink into account and constantly calculate the increases and decreases would cause a lot of stress for the game system.
I could be wrong though...

Yeah I dont know about that, because it seems the system they have now, takes every heat sink and weapon into account. All the weapons have heat stats, all the heat sinks have an effect, at least in the mech lab.

I think people would be rather upset if the system we have, doesnt have the fidelity to replicate what you see in the mechlab, in the game itself.

[KraftySOT]

Possibly the game doesnt have the resources to spare to have changes happen dynamically.

This would be a very big bummer.

[Mystere]

KraftySOT, on 20 September 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

Then they would converge only at that set distance and not dynamically.

Quxudica, on 20 September 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

They weren't though, at least not remotely to the degree they are in MWO. In the BT universe you aimed your weapons individually for the most part. However even if this were the case, they would only converge at that one predetermined fixed range, short of that range they would not converge and long of that range firing lines would have crossed and started to spread again.

That is what I am proposing (i.e. fixed convergence), half of it anyway.

The other half is allow the possibility of the pilot adjusting convergence in-match.

[Quxudica]

Mystere, on 20 September 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

That is what I am proposing (i.e. fixed convergence), half of it anyway.

The other half is allow the possibility of the pilot adjusting convergence in-match.

Either way I'd argue it should not be perfect convergence, there should always be spread, the amount of which determined by the weapon types, number fired at the same time, hardpoint locations and possibly mech quirks. A 65 point or higher alpha is still scary, but you shouldn't have pinpoint accuracy with it, especially if it's using multiple different types of weapons and arm/torso HPs.

[Kassatsu]

Nah man you're going about this all wrong.

You gotta reduce all weapon damage by 50%.

[n r g]

Kirkland Langue, on 20 September 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Don't expect the Devs to get rid of convergence - they are idiots. The issues with convergence have been known for years and at every pass they have sought to change other things (ghost heat, HP buffs, etc) to try and offset how convergence works. I have no idea why the DEVs think convergence is a good idea, but I suspect it's the same reason they introduced 3PV and dozens of other idiotic decisions.

At this point, might as well try to get PGI to work on areas which they might actually work on before they completely throw in the towel and work on selling their new MMO full time.

so what? 3pv sucks anyone and no one good uses it.

[Voivode]

I Zeratul I, on 19 September 2014 - 08:17 PM, said:

The 12 vs 12 format makes it extremely easy to focus fire.

If 12 mechs are shooting at you, life expectancy is short no matter how much armor you have.

It would different in a 4 vs 4 or 8 vs 8 format.

Or if mechs were more spread out.

QFT

[Xetelian]

Please double it. Just double it. Don't screw around with Quirks that new people aren't going to understand plainly. Just up the survival time to twice as long as it is now. No mess, no noobs harmed and we all get to see what running out of ammo looks like before getting either 3 kills or dying.

Really please double armor.

Edited by Xetelian, 20 September 2014 - 05:01 PM.

[Lulz Kev]

I don't want to pilot my YLW if armor / HP pools are increased.

Dire whales already eat so many ac20 shots before going down....

[ShadowbaneX]

KraftySOT, on 20 September 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

A TAC is the only way to really make an aimed shot against something that isnt immobile. Jumping clan mechs with pulse lasers and TACs aim shotting you is pretty par for the course in Megamek games lol

But honestly, youre linked into your mech through a wetware jack implanted in your brain. You had surgery before you piloted a mech (convientely forgotten alot of the times)

You aim. You. You are the mech. The mech walks like you, moves like you, ducks, runs, leans, goes prone, punches, kicks, trips, climbs, just like you. You think about moving your arm, you move your arm.

Which given the to hit percentages, means most shots fired at a run and medium to long range, miss. Even the best pilots in the books, have trouble hitting things. Its usually a matter of the disconnect between your eye point, and the actual point of origin of the weapons, and total lack of covergence.

Oh, right then. It's my brain aiming. You know how adaptable the human brain is? Suffice it to say, very. Which means that hunchback pilot that spends their entire life? Yeah, they're going to adapt to that. It'll be second nature. The best of pilots, would be able to lob those AC/20 shells on target like any athlete can adapt on the fly and throw a ball to make it easier to catch.

Different weapon systems? Also very adaptable. Different weapon systems in different arms, also can be adjusted and adapted.

And lastly? Remember what I said in my last post? Space Magic. If what the books say makes for a good, fun game, I say sure, impliment it. If it doesn't, then meh, do adapt it to make it fun and interesting. I wouldn't mind for things to be less precise, so that those 4 PPCs don't always hit the same location. Some scatter isn't horrible, and would go a long way to ensuring a bit more survivability without doubling armour & structure.

[Mystere]

Kassatsu, on 20 September 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Nah man you're going about this all wrong.

You gotta reduce all weapon damage by 50%.

Xetelian, on 20 September 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

Please double it. Just double it. Don't screw around with Quirks that new people aren't going to understand plainly. Just up the survival time to twice as long as it is now. No mess, no noobs harmed and we all get to see what running out of ammo looks like before getting either 3 kills or dying.

Really please double armor.

Alternatively, halve rate of fire.

Edited by Mystere, 20 September 2014 - 05:56 PM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Wolfways, on 20 September 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure i remember someone from PGI saying that putting a system into MWO where the game has to take every weapon and heat sink into account and constantly calculate the increases and decreases would cause a lot of stress for the game system.
I could be wrong though...

Its already do. lol.

Basically you would see two bars. or just even one bar, that will appear blue and will decrease with heat, that symbolize heat that you can manege, then red bar is rising showing up amount of overheat, more red you get more penalty`s you receive. Its really that simple. One day coding? maybe a week.

On time to kill topic, Im not sure if devs are honest with us. They say TTK is too short and they just come out with modules that decrease TTK even more. So what the hell devs wants?

Anyway my solution would be:
1. fix PP FLD, I dont beat up here how, probably hundreds of pages already covered that topic over the net, I can just add that I like the most targeting comp of HomelessBill, but do what ever, just do something with that MWO core problem
2. real heat scale
3. decrease ROF by 30%-25% at least off everything
4. real critical system, with engine hits, actuators hits, etc.

All that changes would rise TTK in effect, while adding BT flavor and deep interesting game mechanics that provide thinking mans tactical felling.

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 20 September 2014 - 09:48 PM.

[stjobe]

KraftySOT, on 20 September 2014 - 02:25 PM, said:

A TAC is the only way to really make an aimed shot against something that isnt immobile. Jumping clan mechs with pulse lasers and TACs aim shotting you is pretty par for the course in Megamek games lol

But honestly, youre linked into your mech through a wetware jack implanted in your brain. You had surgery before you piloted a mech (convientely forgotten alot of the times)

I always want to know if the state pays for that procedure, or youre on your own.

At any rate...

You aim. You. You are the mech. The mech walks like you, moves like you, ducks, runs, leans, goes prone, punches, kicks, trips, climbs, just like you. You think about moving your arm, you move your arm.

You move the arm at what youre looking at, and think to fire the weapons. Wether or not you hit, is up to you as an individual. Not the computer. It has nothing to do with it, and no IS mech until after the clans invade, have onboard systems that do anything really...its all you. Some might have a command cockpit or more systems in the lore...but you dont even have a radar. Thats what BAPs, Magscans, and ECM are for...thats why LOS matters and you cant see a mech on the other side of a building, unlike an MBT today that can tell pretty much where everything is via connection with a satellite, awacs, troops, or even simple radar.

One of the main factors in a mechwarrior hitting or missing a target, is your own eye sight, and ability to bring the mechs weapons to your eye point and fire them, thinking about where the weapons are firing from.

A hunchback pilots whole life in a mech, revolves around putting that AC/20 on target. Its not moving a crosshair, its moving your actual own physical right chest and firing a weapon from it. Thats what your perspective as a mechwarrior is going to be like. Like youre firing these weapons from positions on your own body.

Which given the to hit percentages, means most shots fired at a run and medium to long range, miss. Even the best pilots in the books, have trouble hitting things. Its usually a matter of the disconnect between your eye point, and the actual point of origin of the weapons, and total lack of covergence.

I'm sorry, but this is quite inaccurate. Please read pages 30-43 in the Tech Manual, especially page 43:


(Tech Manual, p. 43)


(Tech Manual, p. 43)

The primary purpose of the Neurohelmet is to tap into the MechWarrior's sense of balance, to augment the gyros:


(Tech Manual, p. 35)

It is specifically stated that the MechWarrior does NOT link directly with the 'Mech:


(Tech Manual, p. 40)

Clan Neurohelmets provide some rudimentary sensory input from 'Mech to 'MechWarrior, but normally it's the other way around only:


(Tech Manual, p. 41)

So no, you are NOT the 'Mech. You do NOT pilot it with your brain. You do NOT just have to think to aim, you actually have to use a joystick to put a target designator on the target and the 'Mech's built-in computer network will use its actuators and myomers to do the actual aiming.

---

As for computers, I'm sorry but you're not correct there either. A BattleMech has a lot of computers, again please refer to the Tech Manual, pp. 30-43:


(Tech Manual, p. 42)


(Tech Manual, p. 43)

[Lightfoot]

MWO mechs do half the damage at twice the recycle as other MechWarrior games, but the mechs last half as long anyway. So the weapons should just be restored to normal Battle Tech operation and the mechs made tough enough to handle normal Battle Tech weapons.

What PGI is doing with all the weapon nerfs is making gameplay very shallow by leaving just a very few weapons that function normally. We have ACs+Lasers and LRMs, everything else is nerfed out of competition and it is starting to show up in-game this way. Gauss Rifle is very specialized instead of standard equipment on mechs (it is you know, just check all the stock mechs that get one). PPC is a total joke weapon being given all the long range drawbacks including 90 meter minimum range, but now it isn't even accurate. Only an idiot would take one over lasers. Point is all this was made necessary by MWO's fragile mechs going pfffft!!!! everytime they take a solid hit. It has nothing to do with balancing one weapon against another.

Make the mechs tougher before you nerf one more weapon PGI, and then try to restore normal Battle Tech gameplay and weapon balance. That would result in much deeper gameplay than you are currently able to offer in MWO.

[White Bear 84]

More longevity? The game needs to be developed past the 'biggest and ballsiest death ball wins' scenario. Power in numbers, power in focus fire. Mechs only get destroyed quick when half a dozen players are alpha striking the same player...