744 replies to this topic

[HekiDanjo]

I have one concern about the JJ change: Won't someone think of the mediums!! I mean children!
Using a lone or pair of JJ to pivot was the only really good trick left in the bag. Maneuverability was about all we had going for us. We are routinely matched in firepower by lights since their raw speed can keep them safe and we now have heavy mechs that go just as fast as well do and pack much more firepower.
Could this change be tied to the mass of the mech maybe?

[Weaselball]

I don't have time to read through all 26 pages of this post, so I apologize if this has been suggested already, but how about a slightly different approach to the whole fixed-JJ's on clan mechs idea:

Make it so that ONLY the S-Variant Timber (and the respective variants of the Kitfox) can equip jumpjets (fixed jumpjets), and only if you're using that chassis' center-torso. If you're using a different variants CT (let's say the timber prime) and you equip an S variant side torso, you have no option to equip jumpjets and none are fixed.

This helps to make the Timberwolf-S and Kitfox-S a little more unique in that they're the only two main chassis of those variants that can jump, and will also have max-JJ's (assuming they bring their respective ST's as well). Bust out your prime or C variants and equip an S side-torso, and no-jumping.

Now there will be some issues possibly (people just having multiple of the s-variant with different omni-pods), but in that case they'll still have to work with the fixed center-toso JJ that they'd have to work around.

Just a thought.

[WVAnonymous]

My only comment is if you have considered kicking money over to Smurfy but have not, think about it.

Keeping track of all of the quirks with the current UI will be impossible.

[VtTimber]

I'm liking this direction. I am still one for fully hardwired JJs. Have a Victor 9S? you better include 4 tons for those 4 stock JJs. They are really starting to address this with the fixed JJ's in the omnimechs. Now it's time to do it for all JJ mechs and then change the dynamics so that JJ's are something truly worth having.

This would definitely increase variety and role warfare.

Edited by VtTimber, 01 October 2014 - 09:09 AM.

[Jody Von Jedi]

Russ,

My question centers around the purposed mech quirks.

I see the TBT is mostly tier 4 (LG tier 3). TBT is my favorite mech in the game. I run mostly SRM loadouts on all of the TBT variants, except the 7K (AC/20 loadout).

That brings up a question that may have already been answered: Will the quirks benefit the mech's "lore" based weaponry? Or be more broad, say in the case of the TBT, a missile based quirk in general, or will they be just an LRM based quirk?

Jody

[Ens]

GRF-S ( what´s that btw? ) Tier 3
GRF-1E ( Sparky ) Tier 4

so what now?

[Chronojam]

Quote

Although we hope to eventually put in a full engine critical hit system that would affect both IS and Clan 'Mechs, we are going to start out with a change to place some penalty on a Clan 'Mech that loses a side torso. Essentially, there needs to be some penalty for losing 2 critical engine slots. Using the tabletop game as a guideline, we have decided to not make movement a part of the penalty but to save that for some future implementation on the effects of heat on your 'Mechs functionality

A set of heat-related penalties such as HUD failure, throttle decreases, sluggish arm and torso movement, increased lockon time, chance for forced-shutdown despite overriding, and even making weapon cooldown take longer would be so much more interesting than something like Ghost Heat.

[Little Details]

Russ Bullock, on 29 September 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

Again I think this ends up helping build diversity.

When I currently run my Dragon mechs it seems each one looks dang similar. AC10, medium lasers and SRM.

Now I might actually make my 5N about AC2 and my FANG about AC10 and my 1C about Gauss etc. A reason to diversify my Dragon mech's from each other.

The alternative is just buffing all weapons for every Dragon so you have the same issue you have now where I take the same thing out in my 5N that I take out in my 1C or near enough.

Wrong. Completely 100% wrong. It's "your" fault making your loadouts similar to each other across the variants. I always run completely different loadouts per variants, even though 1 is more superior than the other 2 in a lot of instances. By you buffing a particular weapon system in each mech, you're ultimately funneling the user into running that buffed build, thereby decreasing player-driven choices. Might as well institute hard point sizes or locked loadouts because that is, in essence, what you're doing by saying - this variant gets a buff to ac20, this variant gets a buff to gauss. Most people that know what they're doing will not run a non-buffed loadout variant in that case. I understand your point about not giving a buff to everything across the board, but there is a big difference to giving the HBK-4G an ac20 buff and the 4P a ML buff. Instead, you could give the 4G and AC/Ballistic buff (so the 2xAC5 build gets a buff if you want, or an AC20 if you go that way) and the 4P gets an Energy Buff for those that would rather run 2LL/5ML versus 9ML. Please rethink this.

Edited by LT Satisfactory, 01 October 2014 - 10:20 AM.

[Glythe]

Russ Bullock, on 29 September 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

If you want to take out the AC 10 perhaps the Hunchback 4H is for you.

Again if we don't allow some particular load out to be the most specialized and effected by the Quirks then it becomes very hard to bring these mechs up from tier 5 to competitive without laying insane amounts of general quirks to absolutely everything. Which creates less diversity

This is just not true. I suspect you're going to create less diversity because only a handful of builds will be viable on IS mechs. Off the top of my head only the Atlas (7D) and Catapult (C1) are remotely competitive IS mechs I still own. Most of the default loadouts are really quite stupid for the arena we have. But for those two mechs I've only done a minor tweaks such as DHS/ES upgrades, and larger engines with only a few weapon changes.

The problem with the system you're implementing is that I fear many of the builds will remain in the "Do Not Use" category. No offense but a hunchback with an AC/20 is not an effective mech. Do you know why? The AC/20 was fine when it had 660m range and there were no clan mechs in the game. Clan mechs have 800m range lasers and the heavies are almost as fast as the HBK with a max engine. Are you giving the HBK a quirk to make the AC/20 have triple max range? Somehow I think not. Let us also not forget that you really can't afford the AC/20 in terms of weight unless you are using a slow engine to be about as fast as a dire wolf or you are using an XL engine (and die from a single large alpha). Unless you're going to increase the HBK's max engine size (please please please) it is probably going to remain a crap mech. What it sound like you're going to do is make about 1/5 of all the revamps be viable.

QFT

Past, on 29 September 2014 - 07:56 PM, said:

Weapon specific quirks are lame i don't want to be forced down a certain load out or miss out on benefits in a game where customizing to your preference is king. Saying we will help under performing mechs but only if you play them how we tell you feels off to me.

It seems to me blanket buffs would be the way to start and then add the quirks later to keep it interesting. Why not give IS mechs 1.7 DHS? They take up 1 more critical slot than the clan version and the IS mech dies when they lose an XL side torso. Clan mechs have the advantage with variable weapon mounts (giving them overall many more possible guns than IS variants). I don't think you're prepared to give the massive buffs uncompetitive IS mechs need to make them be a valid choice when compared to a clan mech. Couple that with an added overall faster rate of fire for IS mechs and then you have an interesting dichotomy. Clan mechs have lots of guns but run hot while IS mechs run cool and have high DPS.

Rather than making a dragon about using this specific AC variant you could have let mechs (where applicable) break the rules with ghost heat. Wouldn't it be interesting if the Jagermech could fire double AC/20s without ghost heat? It got nerfed hard with the loss of 660m range. It's been nerfed by proxy with the addition of fast clan mechs with long range. Wouldn't the 'laser back' be interesting if it could fire 12 medium lasers without ghost heat?

Also generally speaking you guys really need to intensify the ghost heat on clan mechs because on average they have somewhere between 30-60% more weapons than IS mechs. As such they should run into ghost heat 30-60% faster or it's just not fair. If you want to move the game away from massive alpha online then you need to make radical changes.


The JJ changes are nice but I still think we should be able to 'fly' more (higher/longer especially in light mechs).

I'd like to suggest again that we remove the shake but add measures to prevent pop tarts from returning. Namely if you fire a PPC/gauss rifle in mid air you shut down. Think about a car on a hot day running the AC at full blast. Then you add in fall damage penalties for falling while in shutdown (think about losing 15% health on your leg from each shutdown fall). No one would poptart with anything besides lasers as they are largely ineffective. I guess that does leave ballistics so there would have to be something preventing their use. But you get the idea.

Edited by Glythe, 01 October 2014 - 10:26 AM.

[Sandtiger]

Chronojam, on 01 October 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

A set of heat-related penalties such as HUD failure, throttle decreases, sluggish arm and torso movement, increased lockon time, chance for forced-shutdown despite overriding, and even making weapon cooldown take longer would be so much more interesting than something like Ghost Heat.

AMEN!!!!!!! PREACH ON BROTHER CHRONOJAM!!!!!!

[Hoax415]

Not shocked at all that people are complaining about weapon specific buffs before they have even seen the system.

Here's the thing, if you don't use weapon specific stuff its hard to justify certain variants because many just have -1 or +1 hardpoint.

Say you are PGI trying to do the quirk pass on the cbill Trebs which are all t4 so they make for a good example.

If you avoid weapon specific quirks then basically what is your reasoning for not giving all 4 of them very similar quirks?

Pretending I'm Russ I'd be thinking things like:

TBT-5J: Jump Jet Quirks are obvious first choice and biggest deal since that's the variants big change. Things like faster air turn speed, less heat from jets, faster up thrust, whatever is possible.
-Jump Jet Quirks.
-Energy Weapon Quirks.
-Maybe some kind of arm weapon Quirk? More arm range, or faster arm movement? This is kind of just a meta observant idea since the mech can mount more arm lasers than other Trebs.


TBT-5N: See how quickly this gets difficult? This is just a very vanilla mech. Without specific quirks it just ends up getting things like +torso twist, +armor, +missile stuff zzzz
-Missile Weapon Quirks.
-LRM Weapon Quirks. We need that LRM vs SRM distinction, it gives this variant a reason to exist. Does it mean a smart player runs this TBT as a LRM not SRM based build to min/max? Yes it does.
-Target Lock Speed. This is because 50 ton LRM boats are pretty meh because they don't have the tubes and more importantly the ammo capacity for long 12v12 matches. This will make the 5N a better direct firing or close in LRM support mech and helps drag it out of tier 4.


TBT-7M:
-Missile Weapon Quirks.
-Narc Quirks. Yes more weapon system specific quirks based off the canon loadout. It gives flavor and purpose to the variant. It supports the lore.
-Side Torso Armor / XL protection quirks. The idea here is this is a designed for XL variant. So lets reflect that by making it have better side torso protection.

TBT-3C: Again things are getting quite difficult to differentiate between all these M+E 50t mechs. This one just combines quirks from other variants in a new jumble and again acknowledges that it is designed for XL.
-Missile Weapon Quirks.
-Energy Weapon Quirks.
-Side Torso Armor / XL protection quirks.

TBT-7K: Here's the most unique of the TBT variants and I think a good example of how weapon system specific quirks aren't the end of the world. You can build it with 2 PPC or 2 AC5 or 1 of each but its not like you can use 3-4 of them at 50t so most people will probably go either or. That looks like an interesting mech to me. If someone really hates PPC's they can go LL + AC5 or ML + AC5 and still be using buffed weapons.
-Energy Weapon Quirks.
-PPC Weapon Quirks.
-Ballistic Weapon Quirks.
-AC/5 Weapon Quirks.

While I get where people who think maximizing the blank slate potential of a variant is paramount are coming form. I personally prefer the idea that the quirk pass is designed to make a variant good at something. Not just better.

Otherwise we might as well just buff armor, heat dissipation and energy cooldowns and range on all 5 and call it a day.

Edited by Hoax415, 01 October 2014 - 01:08 PM.

[SweetJackal]

Russ Bullock, on 29 September 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

The key is a boost without resurrecting pop tarting

Late to the party for this one but there are plenty of choices for this. Improving JJ Mobility beyond what it currently is while giving an accuracy debuff while in the air, continuing the reticule shake until feet hit the ground, will cut the option of poptarting. Or turning weapons in the torsos and fixed position arms to a fixed distance convergence instead of instant-dynamic convergence we have now will make it more difficult to provide pinpoint damage from multiple weapons to the same location.

The impacts go far beyond that mind you, changes like this change the shape of the game. I trust your judgement on the matter though, I do like the direction PGI has been heading in now that it's been autonomous.

[Karl Marlow]

Rebas Kradd, on 29 September 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

What, Russ is also buffing artillery strikes?

That's not something anyone wants to hear.

Also...

Wow that's a good tagline for his upcoming Twitch interview. He's going to look back on the last 2 years.

[bobo03]

Sorry, but I disagree with the forcing of locked jump jets depending on the omnipod used. That is absurd. How is it that you are allowing the less technologically advanced inner sphere mechs customize something as "integral" as you are making clan jump jets out to be, purely optional on those chassis? Jump jets, like the majority of weapons on clan mechs excluding the summoner and nova are NOT permanent. IT IS AN OPTION TO USE IF THE CIRCUMSTANCES DICTATE IT. You guys have COMPLETELY missed the point of what an omnimech is supposed to be. A clan mech is designed to carry a weapons loadout that takes into consideration the mission, the environment...etc...and MOST IMPORTANTLY, that pilots preferred fighting style. Have you not realized that the omnipod loadouts listed on sarna and wherever else were just the most POPULAR loadouts designed. They were not however mandatory. If you want to be so limiting to the clan mechs, at least have the decency to release ALL of the omnipods for the mechs to give us more flexibility in spite of the seemingly oh so obvious desire to kneecap clan mechs being what they are supposed to be. SEVERELY PISSED that I payed for something that changed when you got good and ready to.

Edited by bobo03, 01 October 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[Corbon Zackery]

The fall damage for assaults needs to be looked at. The negative scale is so messed up if you fall off a small bump you receive a -32 hit to your legs. One of the reasons light mechs are still at 7%.

So now at -33 for assaults that's going to be painful since most assaults have no JJ to slow the fall rate. Pretty much every bump on a map is going to damage a assaults legs.

So I would a do a little more research into the fall mechanic.

[a gaijin]

Everything in the October Roadmap makes sense and adds balance -- and thus fun.

Specialty mechs (the Hunchback and Awesome come to mind) DO need buffs that are associated with their core type. That's what makes them what they are and happy that the quirks will be based upon mechs core configurations. /thumbsup
Really happy that jump jet (and fall damage) "physics" is being taken more seriously because again, it just makes sense.

Agree and happy with the implementation of a reward system for mediums and lights -- that's been needed for a looong time.
I haven't piloted a medium since the release of my favorite mechs (all 3 are Clan heavies).
Though I kind of miss piloting a Hunchback I doubt I'll ever go back--unless a HBK IIC is released

I agree that the Clan side torso heat sink loss is an acceptable balance, and again it makes sense that the engine heat sinks would be in the ST while keeping the really vital parts of the fusion engine in the CT. Kudos PGI for that intelligent choice for the sake of "balance."
That is enough of a nerf for the Clans. I realize the Inner Sphere (IS) mech pilots all want the Clan mechs nerfed into oblivion but the thing the IS Mech Lovers need to realize is that MWO is a frakkin BattleTech game and that the Clan mechs simply are supposed to be a more powerful and nimble due to the advanced technology that the IS simply doesn't frakkin have.
(All you MechWarrior and BattleTech old timers better back me on this one!)

In the novels, the way the Inner Sphere forces defeated the Clans at the Battle of Tukayyid (and a few other battles) was by use of clever strategies (guerilla warfare, mines, surprise artillery strikes for example) and tactics (A.K.A. fighting dirty) that the Clans refused to use because of the Clanners' sense of honor.

MWO does NOT need nerfs to Clan Tech or technical "upgrades" (buffs) to IS Tech to "balance" the mechs because the Clan mechs are simply supposed to be high tech and better quality than IS hardware (excepting said specialist chassis as stated above).

What the IS needs is a way to "fight dirty."
I don't recall the Clans ever using artillery against the IS Forces (I may have just forgotten though. Any Lore Masters around to verify that or correct me?).

Maybe things such as Artillery & Air Strikes should not ever be allowed on Clan Mechs?
Maybe in CW Assault maps the Inner Sphere bases will have mine fields while Clan Bases do not.

And in CW matches two Clan Stars VS one IS Company would seem to make the most sense.
And it falls into line with the "Clan sense of honorable warfare" VS the IS "screw the honor let's kill the invaders" thinking.

For those who just want to pug drop only and not participate in CW: the match maker ought to either
a ) equally mix # of IS & Clan mechs on each team -or-
b )screw it, just throw balance out the window -- it's a pug match.
Obviously (a) is the better choice.

Again, PGI, just give the Inner Sphere some "dirty fighting" assets or implement a way to help out IS houses "use dirty fighting tactics VS honorable Zellbrigen warfare" and not technical buffs to IS Tech nor nerfs to Clan Tech (again, excluding specialist chassis such as Awesomes & Hunchbacks -- the few that really DO need buffs).

Suggestion:
Implement Zellbrigen "penalties" on all Clan Mechs until the Lore Timeline the Clans put Zellbrigen "on hold."
Penalties such as substantially reduced XP & C-Bills for Clanners violating Zellbrigen (e.g. Clanners should not focus fire against enemies; Clanners shooting an enemy that another teammate has already fired on awards a penalty instead of a reward).
Hit em in the XP & Cbill pocketbook bad enough to where Clan pilots won't want to violate Zellbrigen. I'm talking 75% penalty now.
Violate Zellbrigen and you'll be lucky to make 40,000 Cbills even though you got 3 kills and 7 assists. Actually the goal of Zellbrigen is that every Clanner has as many kills as possible and no assists.
Kind of crazy suggestion I know, but it is a balancing method that does not mess with either Clan tech or IS tech.

Remember that the methods of warfare are VERY DIFFERENT for IS Forces and Clan Forces.

IS Forces use any and all tactics but has crappy tech (for lack of a better term) and the Clan Forces use very limited "honorable" fighting tactics but have great tech & weapon systems.

PGI, please don't forget that the goal of MWO is BattleTech realized.

OMG this post got a LOT longer than planned so enough for now.
Overall, great job PGI and looking forward to the October Roadmap changes /thumbsup

And PGI staff, if my suggestions are too far off the wall, please tell me and I'll stop.


{small complaint}

Spoiler

Really hope that in a future update that the ERPPC has its speed increased.
After all, it is made of lightning so it should be "lightning fast." Maybe not "laser fast" but definitely not "cool blue jelly slow" like it is now

[Kael Posavatz]

The Clans in general did not make use of artillery.

Clan Wolf is the notable exception, deploying Nagas in discrete artillery stars, but even they saw limited use until Tukayyid when they more than proved their value.

All of the Clans had access to and made use of OmniFighters, though their proficiency in air-to-mud differed from Clan to Clan.

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

Love it! Especially the jump jet part and also that my TDR will finally get some quirks.

I don't think clan mechs need nerfs and I also don't really think IS mechs need a whole lot of buffs.
But some cool quirks for my Thunderbolts and Highlanders I won't complain about either

All those ppl whining about "clans are toooo haaaard, NERF them!" make me sick! I wish those whiny cry babies would just KEEP PRACTICING, get better, and stop whining. It's irritating as hell reading all that whining about crap needing to be nerfed when it's just fine.
I wonder if these are the people who always say "work is overrated."

Rococo Rockfowl will never buy or pilot a clan mech. Inner Sphere all the way, baby!

[Andi Nagasia]

bobo03, on 01 October 2014 - 01:50 PM, said:

Sorry, but I disagree with the forcing of locked jump jets depending on the omnipod used. That is absurd. How is it that you are allowing the less technologically advanced inner sphere mechs customize something as "integral" as you are making clan jump jets out to be, purely optional on those chassis?

Jump jets, like the majority of weapons on clan mechs excluding the summoner and nova are NOT permanent. IT IS AN OPTION TO USE IF THE CIRCUMSTANCES DICTATE IT. You guys have COMPLETELY missed the point of what an omnimech is supposed to be. A clan mech is designed to carry a weapons loadout that takes into consideration the mission, the environment...etc...and MOST IMPORTANTLY, that pilots preferred fighting style. Have you not realized that the omnipod loadouts listed on sarna and wherever else were just the most POPULAR loadouts designed. They were not however mandatory.

If you want to be so limiting to the clan mechs, at least have the decency to release ALL of the omnipods for the mechs to give us more flexibility in spite of the seemingly oh so obvious desire to kneecap clan mechs being what they are supposed to be. SEVERELY PISSED that I payed for something that changed when you got good and ready to.

separated for clarity,
also he's right, the only fixed equipment in an omni-mech is such equipment listed as FIXED,

Omni-Rules state that Optional JJ on S/Mobility class Variants are removable,
so by game and by lore they are removable, you cant state your ganna follow the rules,
but only follow the rules you like or when it suits you to follow them,

anyone feel the same, how can we stay Locked into our Lore/Rule bases on one hand,
then say, "well,... i don't really think this will work with what where doing" on account of other rules,
if a class needs balance, then you have a unique dynamic system of balancing their called Quirks,
why not use that to balance, instead of breaking the rules you set your self out to follow?

[Vlad Striker]

I think clan mechs can lose torso twist rate as good as heat dissipation with side torso destruction.
Second, do not make any weapon-specific quirks! Consider to make acceleration rate for one JJ depending from JJ class and total mech weight, please.

And thank you to keep game balance far from manchkins