744 replies to this topic

[Hoax415]

Actually they just decided to start with only weapon quirks for the most part.

Here's hoping that they create some new roles later like "missile boat" and "scout" that have non-weapon quirks like lock time, lock range, or even better the ability to lock multiple targets for scout mechs (I wish).

[Tarzilman]

The armor and structure quirks for the quickdraw must be a joke.
Doesn't change anything when the CT will stay as big as a barn door.
Didn't you guys realize its enormous CT?

[no one]

Okay, I understand that they're trying to make champion or competitive 'Mechs better here and that's understandable, but you should focus on making stock 'Mechs viable first. Like the Locust 1V can't even comfortably fit both a large laser, four machine guns and ammo.

Try to make the stock builds competitive with the meta builds, instead of making meta builds so much better than the stock builds that there's no competition.

I have a fair amount of experience with exploding locusts, let me ass-pull pretty numbers take a whack at this.

Locust 1E - Tier 4 Brawler

Spoiler

Additional Structure (LL&RL) +8
Additional Structure (LA&RA) +4

Small Laser Range +35%
Medium Laser Range +15%
Energy Weapon Range +20%

Small Laser Heat Gen -40% (Small lasers have no business being 2 heat, ever.)
Medium Laser Heat Gen -15%
Energy Weapon Heat Gen -20%

Laser Beam Duration and Cooldown -.25 sec

Movement:

• Acceleration +35%
  
• Deceleration +15%
  
• Turn Rate +25%

Locust 1M - Tier 5 Skirmisher

Spoiler

Additional Structure (LL&RL) +8
Additional Structure (LA&RA) +4

LRM Lock Speed -15%
Missile Weapon Lock Speed -15%

LRM Heat Generation -15%
Missile Weapon Heat Gen -10%

LRM Reload Time - 15%
Missile Weapon Reload Time - 10%

LRM Velocity +20 m/s
Missile Velocity +20 m/s

Sensor Range + 20%

Medium Laser Range +35%
Energy Weapon Range 15%

Medium Laser Heat Gen -25%
Energy Weapon Heat Gen -15%

Medium Laser Duration and Cooldown -.25 sec
Laser Weapon Duration and Cooldown -.25 sec

Movement:

• Acceleration +25%
  
• Deceleration +25%
  
• Turn Rate +25%

Locust 1V - Tier 5 Support

Spoiler

Additional Structure (LL&RL) +8
Additional Structure (LA&RA) +4

Machine Gun Rate Of Fire +35%
Ballistic Weapon Rate Of Fire +15%

Machine Gun Range +35%
Ballistic Weapon Range +10%

Medium Laser Range +20%
Energy Weapon Range +10%

Medium Laser Heat Gen - 45%
Energy Weapon Heat Gen -15%

Medium Laser Duration and Cooldown -.25 sec
Laser Weapon Duration and Cooldown -.25 sec

Movement:

• Acceleration +35%
  
• Deceleration +15%
  
• Turn Rate +25%

Locust 3M - Tier 4 Brawler

Spoiler

Additional Structure (LL&RL) +8
Additional Structure (LA&RA) +4

Small Laser Range +50%
Medium Laser Range +10%
Energy Weapon Range +15%

Small Laser Heat Gen -45%
Medium Laser Heat Gen -10%
Energy Weapon Heat Gen -15%

Laser Beam Duration and Cooldown -.3 sec
+25% AMS effectiveness

Movement:

• Acceleration +30%
  
• Deceleration +20%
  
• Turn Rate +25%

Locust 3S - Tier 4 Skirmisher

Spoiler

Additional Structure (LL&RL) +8
Additional Structure (LA&RA) +4

Streak Lock Speed -25%
Missile Weapon Lock Speed +10%

S/SRM Heat Generation -25%
Missile Weapon Heat Gen -15%

S/SRM Reload Time - 15%
Missile Weapon Reload Time - 15%

S/SRM Velocity +80 m/s
Missile Velocity +20 m/s

S/SRM Range + 30%
Missile Range + 10%

Medium Laser Range +15%
Energy Weapon Range +10%

Medium Laser Heat Gen -25%
Energy Weapon Heat Gen -15%

Medium Laser Duration and Cooldown -.2 sec
Laser Weapon Duration and Cooldown -.2 sec

Movement:

• Acceleration +25%
  
• Deceleration +25%
  
• Turn Rate +25%

You seriously read all that? You be crazy.

Edited by no one, 29 October 2014 - 05:26 PM.

[Kjudoon]

A question about the CPLT A1 then.

It has nice missile buffs.
Because it's support, do those buffs apply to short range SRM/SSRMs?

I'm very intrigued with this whole Quirk process.

[mania3c]

Honestly... I am confused... not only quirks doesn't make sense (Catapult k2 with medium laser bonuses...wut??)but it seems that this niche "pro" scene is dragging whole good idea into wrong direction..basically these quirks are forcing current meta into unused mechs..instead actually trying to make these mechs useful in different way..

What about some AMS bonuses? What if snipers could have Zoom quirks? Jump Jets quirks? maybe some module bonuses? even ECM quirks? why is everything about weapons and more weapons? We all know when meta will shift into different weapon sets...these unused mechs will become either useless again or just too powerful .. I understand PGI has to consider current meta..but ..why the hell are you forcing meta builds for these mechs?

Let me guess why K2 has balistic bonuses and medium lasers..because more players are playing these variants with heavy ballistics in torso and mounting medium lasers in arms..so..you are just enforcing this idea instead actually fixing this variant and give it solid PPC buffs so it would make sense to play something different than AC20/40/gaussapult?

C'mon.. quirks are good idea but you are making it very obvious what are you trying to do..and honestly...it's not the good way.

Edited by mania3c, 30 October 2014 - 01:18 AM.

[Demos]

Ovion, on 29 October 2014 - 05:49 AM, said:

I think the CPLT-K2 should have the PPC quirks, and I think the LCT-1V shouldn't have any ERLL quirks, but mostly glancing over it they seem fine, and like they'll increase the viability of a LOT of mechs.

+1

IMHO the mechs should orient more on their stock load-out, e.g. the K2-catapult mentioned above or the CN9A with the SRM4 Quirk. This one favors the champion build, of course, therefore I can understand the decision from an economic point of view. But the K2 should be revised.

[Haakon Magnusson]

I absolutely love they are trying to make the variants (more) relevant in their default configuration.

But it boggles the mind why they are buffing weapons which aren't even in the variant by default.
In some variants signature weapons all of a sudden are changed to variant timeperiod inappropiate or simply weapons variant never carried.

If PGI wants to make it's own variants, please do. But if you are utilizing the large wealth of fluff available (By picking the variants from lore) make them somehow appropiate.
Yes, this irks me... ON1-K with uac5 etc etc

[Macksheen]

Please do take a look at hero mechs and ensure their load out matches their quirks at least. It may suck, but if they don't match you're really doing a disservice to them. These are mechs that people spend real $ on, yes?

Arrow ... AC20? Comes with and is usually run as lasers and 6MG

Grid Iron ... UAC5? Comes with a Gauss (which is bad anyway) but odd that you're not boosting what it comes with.

Protector ... AC20? Not horrible I suppose, but it doesn't match what it comes with.

[JimEvolved]

Okay I specifically want to take issue with the GI quirks because I love my GI and want to play it even more, but this quirk pass is just really bizarre.

Take a look at Mechspecs.com, or anywhere that seriously discusses GI builds, and you will see instantly that the preferred combination is AC20 + ML. I could even see, especially with the hardening of hunch, a serious quirk pass that makes a GI Gauss build more viable, but to totally ignore both the most common GI builds and also the stock builds in favor of a build no one runs, and isn't very good anyway? Why would you do that PGI, especially to a mech that was already a tier 5 to begin with?

Now, if the Quirk Pass somehow allowed me to load 2 UAC5s plus MPLs, then maybe I've got a build but the only way to do that is to drop down to a 200 engine or worse, what good is that? You're a sitting duck!

I love the Quirk Pass generally, but I am really disappointed in what's been proposed for the GI. PGI I hope you change your mind and either find a way to use Quirks to let us make a solid Gauss build, or, even better, give us quirks that focus augments what are already the best builds on a tier 5 mech, which is AC20 and ML.

[Lord Auriel]

which is what the 4G should sport, and it is already reflected in the 4G quirks.
From what I have seen so far, i'm really looking forward to trying out new builds.
and regarding the QD, there was a ninja fix to the CT hitbox some time ago.
There's a workaround for everything and I'll adapt to the new situation....

Change is great.. let's give it a try!

Edited by Lord Auriel, 30 October 2014 - 07:22 AM.

[Haakon Magnusson]

JimEvolved, on 30 October 2014 - 06:59 AM, said:

Okay I specifically want to take issue with the GI quirks because I love my GI and want to play it even more, but this quirk pass is just really bizarre.

Take a look at Mechspecs.com, or anywhere that seriously discusses GI builds, and you will see instantly that the preferred combination is AC20 + ML. I could even see, especially with the hardening of hunch, a serious quirk pass that makes a GI Gauss build more viable, but to totally ignore both the most common GI builds and also the stock builds in favor of a build no one runs, and isn't very good anyway? Why would you do that PGI, especially to a mech that was already a tier 5 to begin with?

Now, if the Quirk Pass somehow allowed me to load 2 UAC5s plus MPLs, then maybe I've got a build but the only way to do that is to drop down to a 200 engine or worse, what good is that? You're a sitting duck!

I love the Quirk Pass generally, but I am really disappointed in what's been proposed for the GI. PGI I hope you change your mind and either find a way to use Quirks to let us make a solid Gauss build, or, even better, give us quirks that focus augments what are already the best builds on a tier 5 mech, which is AC20 and ML.

This is what boggles the mind, PGI makes hero mech.. decides that it would be cool if it has Gauss and mpls... Fine. THEN Russ (As the face of quirk pass and apparently PGI on the whole) decides that the variant they created should actually use uac5s and tells us this via quirks, whaaat?!
Alright, then man up, admit your layout was poor and change the original variant to match quirks you gave it, because clearly now you mean it should use these... OR make the quirks match what is in the variant. Please?

And while you are doing this, fix the quirks on variants where you are buffing weapons the variant does not have... OR make a new variant which matches those quirks.

Other than that, I fully endorse and promote this quirk pass... just be consistent

[JimEvolved]

Macksheen, on 29 October 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

Exactly. Quirk the lore or quirk what people most often run, but UAC5 makes no sense. It's not like you can actually put 2 on the thing.

You can, but you have to drop the engine way down to something in the neighborhood of a 200 in order to keep enough armor on, have enough ammo, and also mount a couple of MPLs. I wouldn't consider it an effective build.

[Macksheen]

JimEvolved, on 30 October 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

You can, but you have to drop the engine way down to something in the neighborhood of a 200 in order to keep enough armor on, have enough ammo, and also mount a couple of MPLs. I wouldn't consider it an effective build.

You know what I mean - something workable ;-)

Besides, that referential 200 STD with 2xUAC isn't going to be leveraging the quirks enough to get out of T5

[EvilTwinTepe]

As many have said - losing some heat sinks along with a major chunk of your weapons is not a penalty at all since their generating less heat. What if instead of speed we went with another player's suggestion (a slow constant heat build up) or modified Torso Twist amount (degrees) and twist speed?

The IS quirks look pretty interesting, though they'll make outfitting a mech more tedious (you'll need to read all the quirks) and you'll feel like your screwing yourself if you ignore have the quirks (putting an LBX10 in a Hunchback quirked for an AC20).

Edited by EvilTwinTepe, 30 October 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[DevilCrayon]

You've got some black-on-dark-grey text going on in that last update.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

After finally reviewing the complete Quirk list, and I found far fewer issues than I was expecting, however there are a number of inconsistencies, where it appears that PGI is attempting to hit the moving target that is the Metagame. In these cases it seems like a weapon quirk was chosen based on a user preference (or even exploiting and existing temporary mathematical advantage) rather than a traditional lore based loadout.

This is problematic for several reasons. First, the meta game will (should) continue change and evolve, attempting to chase that target with quirks will ultimately result in chassis that always yesterdays news. Secondly, new mech purchases are all stock mechs, and the largest purchaser of stock mechs are new players. Not only do these new mech not have immediate access to advanced technology, but if there default loadouts are not benefiting immediately from quirks it puts and undue hardship on the players who purchased them.

Example: Catapult K2, slated for a minor quirk to ballistic weapon cooldown which does not even apply to their equipped machine guns, as well as minor quirks to Medium lasers. This is probably great if you were involved in last ballistic and medium laser meta, but fast forward 6 months when IS ballistics are burst fire, and PPCs project speed has been restored to 2000m/s, and it’s misaligned quirks are worthless.

I would love to hear some arguments defending the Quirks, and if quirks should receive a quarterly pass so they can keep up with the current metagame.


Note: The list below does not include any heroes, I did not want to second guess PGI’s quirk inconsistancies to mechs they designed in-house.

AS7-K -- Recommendation: Replace PPC quirks with ERLL.
(Banshee, Awesome, and Battlemaster are all actual PPC chassis, and there are no other ERLL assault mechs)

BNC-3M -- Replace LPL quirks with PPC. (Stalker is assault with LPL bonus)
(A mech designed to carry PPCs not gaining any PPC bonuses, this quickly becomes theme; along with the pairing advanced technology quirks on old chassis.)

BLR-1D --
BLR-1G –
BLR-3M --
BLR-3S --
Having 4 nearly identical Battlemaster variants is a problem in itself. Additionally it competes directly with Victor, Awesome, Stalker, and Highlander. I would approach this using a durability and speed quirks, with a mix of ML and Missile buffs. I definitely would not wander in LL (Stalker/Awesome) or Gauss (Victor/Highlander) territory.

BJ-1DC -- dramatically lower AC bonuses, give generic AC bonus and generic energy bonus.
(I love the concept and have been using it since release but a 40% AC5 bonus is broken as hell).
BJ-1X -- remove LPL quirks, add ML quirks, energy cooling, and/or Flamer quirks
(no mech has flamer quirks, while the Wolverine 7K is already a stock LPL medium mech)

CTF-2X -- replace AC20 quirks with LL quirks
(I can appreciate there are no Heavy AC20 chassis, there are also no Heavy LL chassis, and this mech could really take advantage with those high mount points)

CPLT-2K – replace Ballistic quirks with PPC quirks
(iconic PPC heavy mech, with PPC housing built right into the model)

CN9-A – Replace SRM4 quirks with AC10, ML, and/or LRM10 quirks
CN9-AH -- Replace SRM4 quirks with LRM10 quirks
CN9-D – Replace SRM4 quirks with generic missile quirks.
(here are a list of Chassis where SRMs would be appropriate: Kintaro, Wolverine, Trebuchet, Hunchback, Shadowhawk, Quickdraw. Here is a list of chassis where they are not appropriate: Centurion)

CDA-3M – replace LL quirks with UAC5 and/or generic ballistic quirks
(the first two I can kind of understand, but the 3M’s defining characteristic (besides ECM) is an autocanon)

COM-1B – replace MPL quirks with LL and generic energy quirks
(Commando is one of few light chassis that actually carries a stock LL, none of which get LL quirks)

DRG-1C –
DRG-1N –
DRG-5N –
(This is a chassis that has long been considered sub-par, a full review of the chassis and hardpoints is a far better option than Ballistic musical chairs, and shoehorning in ERLL. PGI giving multiple ballistic slots for every large bore AC was design decision that has bitten them a couple of times, as it simply encourages those variants to take more smaller ACs, while chassis with a single smaller AC end up taking the single largest AC available.)

FS9-K – replace SL quirks with LL
FS9-S – replace ERLL with SL or Flamer quirks
(Just to clarify, the FS9-K carries a LL, the FS9-S does not)

GRF-1N – remove SRM quirks, add PPC and LRM10 quirks
GRF-3M -- remove SRM quirks, add ERPPC and LRM20 quirks
(refer to Centurion notes, there are enough SRM and SRM boats in the medium weight class, no need to wedge excellent, traditional LRM platforms in there as well)

HGN-733 – remove LL quirks
HGN-733P – remove LL quirks

HBK-4J – replace ERLL quirks with ML quirks

KTO-18 – replace LRM5 quirks with SRM6 quirks
KTO-19 – replace SRM4 quirks with higher generic missile quirks
(Someone had confused the Kintaro with the Griffin and Centurion, the 18 should be a brutal skirmisher, while the 19 a more generalist supporting 3 different missile types)

LCT-1V – replace ERLL quirk with large MG quirks

ON1-K – replace UAC5 quirks with ML quirks and general AC quirks
ON1-M – replace SRM6 quirks with LB10X quirks and general missile quirks
ON1-V – replace LRM5 and AC5 quirks with generic AC, SRM, LRM quirks
ON1-VA –replace SRM6 and AC20 with large SRM4 quirks and general missile quirks
(there is a certain irony in pushing SRM4s quirks on so many chassis except for the mechs that actually carry SRM4)

QKD-4G – replace LL quirks with good general Energy and Missile quirks
QKD-5K – replace PPC quirks with ML quirks
(The Quickdraw has the same issue as Battlemaster, with 4 nearly identical variants. Differentiating them can be difficult, but should not be solved by stealing roles from other chassis)

SDR-5V – replace ERLL quirks with MG quirks

[tresspaser]

Greetings:
Haven't sifted throught the last 20 pages of the posting, so forgive me if someone already mentioned all the things i am about to state.

The XL engine on clans is very controversial, however by logic and foresight of what the future might be, if your destroy a part of an engine, no matter how advanced the technology is, it needs to loose performance. Thus there should be a loss of speed to the destruction of a side torso. Heck, you wanna make it different, let the two torsos be destroyed and the mech still lives, but can not move making it essentially a turret. This would compare to Mercenaries where you got legged and the mech would fall but you where still in action although you can only do as much as the position you are in lets you.

My next point is with the Hunchback G and Grid Iron. They are locked to being an AC20 exclusive and an UAC exclusive mechs respectively.
In the case of the Hunchback G give it a AC10 quirk with half the bonus and period, the enngineers meant it to be done with a heavy autocannon and thus receive bonuses with heavy autocannons. If an LBX is equiped the just add a cooldown bonus for it not an increase in critical, since its already good enough critical chance.
In the case of the hunchback it should be treated the same as the G with some kind of bonus for LRM missiles and SRM or SSRM missiles in order not to loose the benefit of having a second hunch and versatility and variety. Because thats what makes it a HERO mech. Another option on this mech would be a free cooldown bonus for the Gauss and a low constant bonus, of your judgement, for any ballistic weapon and this way keep the diference of this mech proliferate and not disappear.
Another point would be that any mech with an AC10 bonus should also have an LBX10 bonus since both cannons should be somewhat the same physical sizes.

Couldn't find any other things that would worry me, thanks for the quirks.

[Felio]

It seems like the quirks were designed without taking the hardpoints into account.

The SHD-2H has three ballistic hardpoints, obviously for three MGs or (ambitiously) AC/2, but it's quirked for the AC/5. It can't take three AC/5s, though, unless it uses a standard engine, moves like an Atlas and has no other equipment.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Felio, on 01 November 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

It seems like the quirks were designed without taking the hardpoints into account.

The SHD-2H has three ballistic hardpoints, obviously for three MGs or (ambitiously) AC/2, but it's quirked for the AC/5. It can't take three AC/5s, though, unless it uses a standard engine, moves like an Atlas and has no other equipment.

This is because the 'stock' 2H only carries one AC5. I'm not really sure why PGI gave it 3 hardpoints.

Most of the quirks are aimed at making 'stock-ish' loadouts more attractive.

[Macksheen]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 01 November 2014 - 10:07 AM, said:

This is because the 'stock' 2H only carries one AC5. I'm not really sure why PGI gave it 3 hardpoints.

Most of the quirks are aimed at making 'stock-ish' loadouts more attractive.

Because of the SHD champion...which they should have done on the M anyway, but whatever.