647 replies to this topic

[Em3r4ld]

CTF-IM is by far the best CTF, and the best heavy, Tier 3 is a joke xD how is it on-par with a DRG-Flame?

CTF-4x is classed in the same tier as the 1x and 2x? Also seems wrong.

Vindicators need their own tier, add tier 6 for how bad they are srsly tier 5 at least.

[Lynx7725]

I'm not even sure how to interpret the tiering. What's the criteria? What shuffles a mech into Tier 1 and into Tier 5? Is it an absolute measure or relative? If it's relative why are there no Tier 1 Mediums? Is there a quota system per Tier?

This tiering system obfuscate more that it enlightens, really.

[Vassago Rain]

Lynx7725, on 30 September 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

I'm not even sure how to interpret the tiering. What's the criteria? What shuffles a mech into Tier 1 and into Tier 5? Is it an absolute measure or relative? If it's relative why are there no Tier 1 Mediums? Is there a quota system per Tier?

This tiering system obfuscate more that it enlightens, really.

It's to show that some choices are much better than others, but in a deep system, you could be bad at one thing, but exceptional at something else.

Here's a king of fighters 13 'tier chart' for ranking characters based on new player compatibility.

[Karl Marlow]

Vassago Rain, on 30 September 2014 - 09:47 PM, said:

As expected, a lot of people in here are operating as if it's still 2012.

No, the hunchback 4P isn't a magical scalpel. It has no range, and gets the shoulder blown apart by every half-way decent robot on the field in very quick order.
No, ECM isn't godtier omega levels of mandatory, because there's about 10 counters to it, and outside the DDC, all current ECM carriers are underarmed.
No, your 2012 hillhumping isn't comparable to madcats doing KOF-styled short hops and blowing robots up in seconds.

The fact that we're all posting in a thread about how most IS mechs are worthless would hopefully give pause to the more ridiculous claims.

Is this a good time to ask for the Urbanmech to be released?

[El Bandito]

VND-1AA should be T3. It is the best VND and one of the better Mediums over all.

Look at how bad the IS Heavies are. And people had the gall to think Orion can be as good as Timbie? Ha!

Edited by El Bandito, 30 September 2014 - 10:36 PM.

[Lynx7725]

Vassago Rain, on 30 September 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

It's to show that some choices are much better than others, but in a deep system, you could be bad at one thing, but exceptional at something else.

Maybe. Let's say the Jagers. Most Jagers are in the same Tier. The Hero FB is one Tier higher. IIRC, the FB just has the potential to have a bigger engine, plus the Hero perks. Is it the bigger engine, or the hero perk that pushed it to a higher tier?

[Killashnikov]

I cannot see how any Dragon variant gets above tier 4. The problem lies in the geometry, and Dragons all share that....

[Deathlike]

Lynx7725, on 30 September 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

[/size]
Maybe. Let's say the Jagers. Most Jagers are in the same Tier. The Hero FB is one Tier higher. IIRC, the FB just has the potential to have a bigger engine, plus the Hero perks. Is it the bigger engine, or the hero perk that pushed it to a higher tier?

Hardpoints. Purely hardpoints. Look at the poor Catapult-K2, and see how far we've come since the Gausscat.

[Vassago Rain]

Lynx7725, on 30 September 2014 - 10:37 PM, said:

[/size]
Maybe. Let's say the Jagers. Most Jagers are in the same Tier. The Hero FB is one Tier higher. IIRC, the FB just has the potential to have a bigger engine, plus the Hero perks. Is it the bigger engine, or the hero perk that pushed it to a higher tier?

Firebrand has...

High energy mounts.
More side torso energy.
Bigger engine max.
Cash bonus.

In addition to all other jag bonuses.

[Kmieciu]

Quirks seem like an easy way to buff a chasis, since all you have to do is to change some numbers in the XML file.

But the correct thing to do would be to fix some of the hitboxes. For example the Raven's "ghost" legs. And compare the Dragon to the Mad Dog. The new clan mech has perfect hit boxes: you see them loosing arms, and side torsos before dying. The Mad Dog "feels" much more durable than the venerable Dragon, despite being the same weight.

Having said that, I'm curious what quirks they will come up to make Dragons and Thunderbolts viable against the Timberwolf, because I sure don't have an idea.

Edited by Kmieciu, 30 September 2014 - 11:01 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

Kmieciu, on 30 September 2014 - 10:51 PM, said:

Quirks seem like an easy way to buff a chasis, since all you have to do is to change some numbers in the XML file.

But the correct thing to do would be to fix some of the hitboxes. For example the Raven's "ghost" legs. And compare the Dragon to the Mad Dog. The new clan mech has perfect hit boxes: you see them loosing arms, and side torsos before dying. The Mad Dog "feels" much more durable than the venerable Dragon, despite being the same weight.

Any torso hit on dragons is potentially lethal, because IS XL engines, whereas the vulture has a clan XL, so it's not even half as fragile.

Less to do with hit boxes, and more related to tech.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

First off, I continue to be amazed at the recent communications and transparency - KEEP IT UP!

My feedback on the Tier Table ...

General: I have no idea exactly what criteria you used to determine each 'mech's ranking, but I'm sure you have volumes more data than I possibly have access to, most of the placements make pretty good sense, though. Each of these comments is purely my observation and speculation.

Light:
- Tier 3 'mech effectiveness seems pretty varied. I could see possibly moving the FS9-S and JR7-O up to Tier 2, and the COM-DK and SDR-A down to Tier 4.
- Tier 5 'mechs are all in a pretty bad place, but I'm not convinced that the COM-1B and SDR-5K are that much worse than the RVN-4X (or, for that matter, COM-DK and SDR-A), and could probably be moved up into Tier 4. RVN-H (not currently on the list) belongs in Tier 5.

Medium:
- Tier 2: Not all Shadow Hawks are created equal ... SHD-2K could be moved up to Tier 1, and SHD-2H could be moved down to Tier 3.
- Tier 3: KTO-GB, with it's gimped engine size and twist ranges and rates compared to other Kintaros, should either have it's eisting quirks re-examined or get bumped down to Tier 4.
- Tier 4: CN9-YLW is still the fastest (if a bit fragile) AC/20 on the battlefield, and should probably be Tier 3. TBT-5N could probably use a bit more work than the other Trebuchets, and could be Tier 5.

Heavy:
- Tier 2: I'm not sure the JM6-F is in a category all on it's own, but OK.
- Tier 3: CPLT-K2 and CTF-IM (and maybe JM6-DD and JM6-S) outclass the QKD-5K, CPLT-J, and CPLT-A1 by a pretty big margin, and probably belong in Tier 2. JM6-A has always seemed weird to me ... maybe move the JM6-DD and JM6-S up to Tier 2, and leave the JM6-A in Tier 3 with an additional missile-related quirk?

Assault:
- Tier 1: VTR-9K is Tier 2.
- Tier 3: I'm not sure what differentiates the BLR-3M significantly from the BLR-1D and BLR-1G ... BLR-3M should probably be Tier 4. Comparing the AWS-8R to another missile boat--the BLR-1S, in Tier 4--the BLR has more armor, more hard points, and a bigger engine cap ... AWS-8R should probably be Tier 4.
- Tier 4: Every Stalker (including those in Tier 4) do something better than the STK-4N, while it's not quite as miserable as the AWS chassis, it probably belongs in Tier 5.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 30 September 2014 - 11:01 PM.

[Leopardo]

1 thing - move ANANSI to tier 4

[Lynx7725]

Deathlike, on 30 September 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

Hardpoints. Purely hardpoints. Look at the poor Catapult-K2, and see how far we've come since the Gausscat.

Vassago Rain, on 30 September 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

Firebrand has...

High energy mounts.
More side torso energy.
Bigger engine max.
Cash bonus.

In addition to all other jag bonuses.

Fair on the mounts. Engine practically speaking, I don't see many "Fast" Firebrands, so is PGI looking from a purely theoretical perspective, or is practical user experience coming in? (And that brings in the problem of "which user? High ELO, Low ELO, no ELO?).

I've actually no issue with "based on our perspective", that kind of thing happens. It's just that I would like to know what that perspective is based on.

And of course if the Cash Bonus is one of the reason that boosted the tiering, then it gives some credence to the P2W crowd...

[Vassago Rain]

Lynx7725, on 30 September 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Fair on the mounts. Engine practically speaking, I don't see many "Fast" Firebrands, so is PGI looking from a purely theoretical perspective, or is practical user experience coming in? (And that brings in the problem of "which user? High ELO, Low ELO, no ELO?).

I've actually no issue with "based on our perspective", that kind of thing happens. It's just that I would like to know what that perspective is based on.

And of course if the Cash Bonus is one of the reason that boosted the tiering, then it gives some credence to the P2W crowd...

The game is no longer being balanced by feel by Paul, but has been turned to a more sensible 'balancing from the top down,' while allegedly asking the good players for their input.

[Lynx7725]

Vassago Rain, on 30 September 2014 - 11:06 PM, said:

The game is no longer being balanced by feel by Paul, but has been turned to a more sensible 'balancing from the top down,' while allegedly asking the good players for their input.

In which case I'd simply not have the correct perspective to comment on this. Shrug, life carries on...

[Kmieciu]

Vassago Rain, on 30 September 2014 - 10:55 PM, said:

Any torso hit on dragons is potentially lethal, because IS XL engines, whereas the vulture has a clan XL, so it's not even half as fragile.

Less to do with hit boxes, and more related to tech.

Have you tried to core the Mad Dog? I swear this bugger can soak more cUAC5 than the Timberwolf. I have yet to see one cored without loosing side torsos first. Mad Dog's CT hitbox is almost as small as on the Stormcrow.

Dragon on the other hand can be cored from any angle. It has the "Jenner syndrome".

Edited by Kmieciu, 30 September 2014 - 11:12 PM.

[NextGame]

MightyMeatShield, on 30 September 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

Edit: Where's the Huggin?

Tier 6, where it belongs

[NextGame]

overall, list looks within parameter, id buff tier 4 & 5 and leave 1-3 as they are, which are sufficiently playable.

If I had an AC/20 pointed at my head and was told to shuffle some mechs around on the list I would make the following comments:

• it looks to me as though the cbill firestarters have been downgraded against the strength of the ember rather more than anything else.
  
• Personally I think the oxide is terrible, and the 5 mlas locust is better. I would also kick the following mechs down to tier 4 in the light category: COM-DK, SDR-A, JR7-K, JR7-O as they are blatantly worse than the firestarters and ecm carrying lights. I would also consider moving the SDR-5K up a tier to join them, as it isn't that bad if you use it properly (again, personal preference)
  
• Huginn tier 5 obviously
  
• the SDH-2D, 2D2 and GRF-3M are probably your medium Tier 1's.
  
• The jumpjetting blackjacks (arrow & 1) with 1 ballistic and 3 energy are probably a better fit in tier 2.
  
• the other blackjack with a ballistic (1DC?) is clearly better than the energy variants and should be in tier 3
  
• The sparky is tier 2 or 3 depending on the map and the pilot, probably best to leave it where it is.
  
• I didn't think the wolverines were that bad in general.
  
• Heavies look generally ok, although I would put the jagers more on a par with each other, the tanky/brawler orions are probably better off in tier 3 than 4, which I think might be all of them other than that silly one with missile hardpoints in its arms, and the catapult A1 is a terrible mech imo, and would be solidly in tier 4 if everyone used it as badly as I do.
  
• Assault looks more or less ok, I would possibly make DDC a tier 1 due to the ecm. I'm not sure that the assault tier 3's and 4's are really that different from each other in capability beyond the stalker 4N being terrible.

[YueFei]

I don't think HBK-4SP should be Tier 4. It's not the best mech in the game or even in the weight class, but I tend to think it's more toward the middle of the pack, not the bottom of the barrel. Should be Tier3.