I'm guessing it has to do with the roof-mounted ballistic hardpoint, combined with the Dragon's good mobility. That's just speculation, though.
Really though, does this singular feature push it up to Tier 3? I have noted that the good mobility is negated when utilizing an AC20 in the shoulder-slot, and the two high-energy points in the 1C are arguably better than one ballistic point here.
I believe I've covered your observations in my first post.
So tell me, in consideration of the points I've made-
why is the Flame Tier 3?
Edited by Abigail Acerose, 30 September 2014 - 03:12 PM.
What's the plan as far as modifying the mechs of lower tiers? Is it to have all mechs a tier 3 or higher? To have them all considered tier 1's? What are you looking towards as far as what you want the chart to eventually look like?
If the Highlanders lose their negative quirks with the Victors, they belong where they are (except perhaps the P, which is just terrible now that poptarting with a boatload of PPC's isn't a thing anymore). If they aren't just flushing its existing quirks, however, it's just a second rate missile boat now; slow, clumsy, few hard points and absurdly heavy jump jets that don't actually do anything.
Otherwise, I'm largely in agreement with the list; Mino[r] quibbles but none that matter enough to mention.
Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 30 September 2014 - 04:03 PM. Sorry, spelling, unless you have a problem with the Dakotas :)
There isn't anything else to use the weight/space for. You can only use so much ammo effectively anyway.
You mean aside from having a bigger engine, or even more missile tubes? If you're using up a lot of tonnage with Artemis but you don't have a good enough engine then it's usually a waste because you won't be able to exploit direct fire opportunities as easily, or if you're not firing missiles directly then that means wasting a lot of tonnage & crit slots.
Of course such issues can be overcome by skill and/or playstyle, but to say there's nothing else to use the weight/space for is wrong.
Also: Folks, remember that your personal results pugging in a mech have pretty much zero impact on tier rankings. Your Elo ranking will adapt to the mech you use most frequently, rendering random anecdotal evidence moot. Also, at mid to low Elo levels a great many weaknesses of chassis are not apparent because many/most enemies don't know to/don't know how to exploit those vulnerabilities. If a mech you love and use frequently is rated low, rejoice, for its going to get a lot better
- Honestly, just remove the Grid Iron and replace it with a Hollander... Thanks for recognizing it needs help.
- All the Thundetbolts should be moved up a single tier for their current place, more towards tier 1. Aside from a wider profile, they are not as lacking as some make them out to be.
- Oxide could use a drop in tier in my estimates. It CAN have a good build but its lack of ammo room makes it a concerning and far from desirable light to run, especially for a hero mech.
- Atlas RS needs a bump down a tier (at least tier 4), it is nowhere near the Atlas BH or Atlas D...
Yep, Huginn missing. Wonder how they are going to fix it though as the problem is ammo dependancy. Unlimited ammo would be quite a stretch. Energy hardpoints as a quick?
LocationPeriphery of the Inner Sphere, moving toward the core worlds with each passing day.
Posted 30 September 2014 - 03:34 PM
Let us not kid ourselves here...
The JR7-D is a tier 1 light mech and so is the Raven 3L. The Oxide is a tier 2 with the SRM brawler meta...
Also, any Jagers except perhaps that A should be in tier 2 for heavy's with the Firebrand. The CTF IM is the only IS mech that can mount 3 ballistics in 3 separate locations, that is a tier 1-2 heavy as well.
There are some Shadowhawks like the 2D2, 2D, and 2K that should be tier 1 mechs. The 2D is the quintessential "20 Shawk", the 2D2 is the Missile boat, and the 2K is the energy sniper. Also the GRF-3M should be in that conversation for tier 1 as well, and the YLW is a tier 2 at least...
LOL @ lets buff 2 of the top 4 lights in the game to be BETTER!!!
Just FYI, I play a JR7-D and RVN-3L pretty much exclusively if I play IS lights...those guys are pretty much good where they are...
Now the JR7-K and the RVN 2X/4X/Huginn...yeah, those guys need help.
Fall Damage
Don't have a strong opinion on this. It would be nice to suffer less leg damage from simply running across bumpty terrain in my locust, though.
Jump Jet Thrust
As long as we are talking about the summoners 5 jump jets being as effective as 5.5 or 6 now, I think this is a good idea. I don't want pop-tarting to become easy again, because then I wont want to do it anymore... no fun if its easy...
Jump Jet Turn Rate
Sounds OK.
Omnimech Fixed Jump Jet Slots
This is a good change, IMO.
I always thought that it was odd that a Timberwolf S Right torso would allow you to add a jumpjet to the left torso.
It is good that the Timberwolf is getting a 'nerf' of sorts. To bring the TW in line, either the TW needed to be changed, or we would have to endure more nerfs to all clan weapons, which have an effect on the already weak chassis as well. This seems like the lesser of 2 evils.
Some people, (including myself) used the S side torsos for hardpoint reasons. I have used the S side torso on a TW that in fact had 0 total jump jets.
Fortunately, things do not look as bad for the kitfox.
It will no longer be able to fit an LBX10 in the right torso, but a UAC10 will still fit.
The left torso will no longer be able to fit a UAC2. I think I will miss the 2x UAC2 kitfox the most... while not a good build, it was surely one of the coolest looking mechs in game.
Other than those two things, all other effects should be quite minor. You will still be able to rock a single jumpjet, in either torso, if you just want that slight mobililty boost.
I have a build with a JJ in each leg... people who have builds like this may want to consider moving things around so that they have a JJ in each torso, if they want to ensure that they can still jump after sustaining heavy damage. Alternatively, you can have 2 jjs in 1 leg, and 0 in the other.
My kitfox builds will still work, with some minor changes. Can't say the same for my TW builds, and honestly, this is how it should be.
Destruction of a Clan Side Torso
"Although we hope to eventually put in a full engine critical hit system that would affect both IS and Clan 'Mechs"
This vague statement scares the hell out of me. Something as important as the destruction of an entire mech should never be left to a dice roll in a skill based game. Critical hits to weapons and heatsinks are great, immersive, and necessary. Critical hits that result in mech destruction should be avoided. Please implement a deterministic (non-luck based) system, or do not allow crits to fully destroy a mech.
If the change only has an effect on heat sinks/turn rate/speed, then I will be OK with it. But if a mech can die because of bad luck, while another in similar condition can survives 2 more hits, then I will not be OK with that, at all.
That being said, the heat sink loss for the side torso will be a welcome change.
Updated Reward System
Im sure no-one will really argue with that.
Inner Sphere Quirk System
Sounds good overall.
The AC20 bonus for the Hunchback does have me slightly concerned. Mechwarrior is all about customization. I hope that weapon specific buffs stay relatively rare, so as to not detract from the customization aspect of the game. More general quirks (ex: all ballistics, all lasers, etc.) should be the norm.
That being said, I do am infact looking forward to the Hunchback AC20 quirk.
Negative Quirks Removed for Victor
Great! About time! The Victor was nerfed because of its jump-sniping prominence, but this was before all JumpJets were nerfed in general. I think it will be a good mech again, but not OP like it was, because its OPness was based on the jumpjets, which are now globally nerfed.
Please roll back all negative quirks for the Highlander as well. Remember that the jumpjets on that weigh 2 tons, so if anyone wants to try to make it a jumpsniper again, they are going to be dedicating 8-10 tons to jumpjets, and they still won't be jumping as high as they once were, back in the HGN/VTR meta days.
Comments on Mech Tiers:
Looks fairly reasonable overall.
Everything is within 2 tiers of where I would have placed it... Most are within 1... but if I say a mech needs a 10% buff, and you give it a 5% buff, I will still be a happy man.
Interesting to note that there are no tier 1 mediums. I will be happy to see buffs across the medium class, even though the shadow hawk buffs will of course be very slight.
The tier 1 medium is of course the stormcrow, but it is a clan chassis so it's not listed here.
I suspect that if PGI were to construct a similar list for clan lights, there would be no tier 1 clan lights. (The kitfox would probably be tier 2 or 3, while the Adder would be a tier below it.
If you want my input, however:
Spoiler
*Note that I ommited mechs that I know little about, and just assumed you were right about those ones.
Lights:
LCT-1E v tier 5
LCT-3M v tier 5
RVN-2X ^ tier 4
SDR-5K ^ tier 4
SDR-5D ^ tier 2
(The RVN-2X is better than any locust, c'mon. The LCT-1E and LCT-3M are effective only becase there are some very skilled harcore locust pilots who choose those chassis and run them a lot. Unless you are talking performance per ton... but since the matchmaker treats the locust and raven as both 'lights' then what does performace per ton matter. Also, the lack of 10 true doubles for the xl190 really hurts the all energy locusts. True, they are the best 2 locusts, but that doesnt make them tier 4. The other locusts are instead, low tier 5, while the energy locusts are high tier 5.)
Mediums:
GRF-S ^ tier 2
KTO-GB v tier 4
TBT-LDG v tier 4
BJ-1X ^ tier 3
(I feel that the only top tier medium is the stormcrow, and I also agree that shadowhawks are close. I don't see how the sparky is any worse than other Griffins, however. Also, the BJ-1X is definately not tier 4. Its a solid and fast energy boat. Great? No. But definately good.)
Heavies:
CPLT-K2 ^ tier 2
JM6-DD ^ tier 2
JM6-S ^ tier 2
JM6-FB ^ tier 1
CTF-IM ^ tier 2
(I think you were very close on the heavies. But a mech that can mount two real pinpoint IS ac20s is not tier 3, even if it does have to choose between being slow or squishy. Also, the muromets seems effective, even if it isn't my style.)
Assaults:
HGN-733C v tier 3
AWS-8R v tier 4
AWS-9M ^ tier 4
AS7-D vv tier 5
AS7-RS vv tier 5
AS7-BH v tier 4
AS7-K v tier 5
STK-3H ^ tier 3
STK-4N ^ tier 3
STK-5S ^ tier 3
(HGN-733C is not tier 2 with the JJs as weak as they are now. Also, the 3 'bad' stalkers are only 'bad' because they are out-done by the other stalkers. If the other stalkers were removed suddenly, you would realize that these 3 mechs are not so bad. Yes - I own the 3 'good' ones and none of the 'bad' ones, but this is because of stalker vs. stalker comparisons, not stalker vs. other mech comparisons. And the Atlas is not good. Its weapons are low, and it moves slow. This is a terrible combination. )
Overall conclusions:
This is fantastic news!
Edited by Fire and Salt, 30 September 2014 - 03:54 PM.
Even if this list is not 100% - it is good enough to my eyes.
I am assuming that the long term plan is to push as many up the scale as possible to have the bulk of all mechs falling in 1/2 and maybe some 3s (not every mech is able to be saved)
However the other outcome I am guessing is that even the lower teir mechs should get quirks that at least give them a niche role and have a place even if limited.
This l seems like a good step for overall balance and for role warfare.
o0Marduk0o, on 30 September 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:
But you lose 0,5t worth a JJ while not being able to fill all crit slots anyway to make the one more internal heatsink useful. You will run out tonnage before slot space. Furthermore, I prefer external heatsinks being hit with crit rolls instead of weapons.
The thing is that the JR7-F can comfortably take endo steel and ferro fibrous and still have enough room for enough heatsinks, jumpjets, and 6 medium lasers while the firestarter can't.
So apparently a lot of the mechs I love to play and tend to do well in are Tier 4 and 5. Hunchback 4G is Tier 5? Orions are Tier 4? I'm a bit uncertain as to how to proceed. On the one hand these mechs do Extremely well. On the other hand free buffs.
Good list.
I understand why there is no T1 mediums, a lot of people would rather use a light heavy, or a heavy light other than use a medium. and the major reason mediums get used as much as they do is 3/3/3/3.
I'm not sure I agree how high the Atlas are on the list in general but most of my issues with it can't be remedied by quirks
JR7-F and FS9-K need to be the same class (along with the Ember). Either tier 1 or 2 but they're very similar in terms of loadouts and abilities, coming from someone who has played a lot of both.
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Asyres, on 30 September 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:
