1430 replies to this topic

[StonedDead]

I have to say, I'm impressed how close this is still. Maybe we get both PGI?

[Hospy]

IraqiWalker, on 12 October 2014 - 01:02 AM, said:

The energy boating part is actually lack luster, and not a good argument for the BK, since that's a field dominated by the clans. On the other hand, the Grasshopper is extremely mobile, mostly due to it's JJs, and packs a wallop that can .

But the BK is an IS mech. It's kind of silly to say that the Clans make the BK obsolete, because the exact same mech that makes the BK substandard makes the Grasshopper substandard.

The Grasshopper has the same mobility as a CTF-3D. And if you think trading two ballistic slots for a head mounted missile is somehow an improvement, I don't know what to say.

[Grey Ghost]

Zekester81, on 12 October 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

I have to say, I'm impressed how close this is still. Maybe we get both PGI?

This isn't an either / or situation here, we are going to inevitability get both. This poll was just to see if the community was heavily skewed one way or the other. Looks like it's going to be a toss up. *cough* Grasshopper *cough*

[Nathan Foxbane]

Hospy, on 12 October 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

But the BK is an IS mech. It's kind of silly to say that the Clans make the BK obsolete, because the exact same mech that makes the BK substandard makes the Grasshopper substandard.

The Grasshopper has the same mobility as a CTF-3D. And if you think trading two ballistic slots for a head mounted missile is somehow an improvement, I don't know what to say.

I prefer lasers over ballistics, because I need not worry about ammo. The Grasshopper has a very different profile to the 'Phract. It will play different. Ballistics to beams is an odd comparison, too different. The missile in the head is a nice extra, not a make or break change. Still much more interesting than the BK. I do agree that either should not be compared to the TW, but if it is the standard insisted on (no matter how ludicrous) then it must be attempted.

[1453 R]

Hospy, on 12 October 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

But the BK is an IS mech. It's kind of silly to say that the Clans make the BK obsolete, because the exact same mech that makes the BK substandard makes the Grasshopper substandard.

The Grasshopper has the same mobility as a CTF-3D. And if you think trading two ballistic slots for a head mounted missile is somehow an improvement, I don't know what to say.

The difference is between a mobile striker with zombie capability and what could very easily be a narrow, Shadow Hawk-ish profile and what would almost have to be a 75-ton AWS-8Q. Complete with fatness and bad engine. It's actually fairly simple to get the Hopper up to a 340STD with its default energy armament and all four jets, which makes for a rugged, durable machine that can fight to the bitter end even better than Clan 'Mechs (Lost both shoulders? Still got that heavy beamer in the gut!) and can very nearly keep up with said Clan 'mechs.

Is it the right way to fight the Clans? Possibly not given its relatively light armament for its size (I would personally hope for a couple of extra beam hardpoints somewhere and sacrifice two heat sinks for two more ISML), but it's for damn certain a better way to fight the Clans than a larger, fatter, slower 'Mech with a bloated, heat-intensive energy loadout on a fragile ISXL power plant.

Does the AWS-8Q strike you guys as a particularly potent Clanbuster, after all?

[Hospy]

You have, more or less, posted a QKD-5K.

Which also brings up an interesting point; we don't know what the Grasshopper model will look like, though we do know where the hard points generally will be. If the Quickdraw, a pretty slender mech in illustrations, could turn into a giant MWO model, there's no guarantee the Grasshopper won't. And the Grasshopper is stuck with its waist mounted weapons.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Hospy, on 12 October 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

You have, more or less, posted a QKD-5K.

Which also brings up an interesting point; we don't know what the Grasshopper model will look like, though we do know where the hard points generally will be. If the Quickdraw, a pretty slender mech in illustrations, could turn into a giant MWO model, there's no guarantee the Grasshopper won't. And the Grasshopper is stuck with its waist mounted weapons.

Unlike the Quickdraw the Grasshopper does not come with a thin skin. As for size, the Quickdraw is quite stout in the torso in almost all official illustrations. It has very long legs and a tall head, which makes it look thinner than it really is. If I recall right the Grasshopper is shorter than the Black Knight anyways.

[Jeon Ji Yoon]

Redshirt enraged, on 12 October 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

You want a Timberwolf with IS coating...but i don´t think the BK will fulfill that role.

Rakshasa gogogogo!

[Hospy]

I was comparing the previous poster's giant engined Grasshopper to get something really fast to something that is already in the game. Sure, the Grasshopper can bring better armor, but the engine cost to get something that fast gives the Quickdraw more effective tonnage to work with. And hi mounted energy hard points.

Quickdraw's blockiness isn't its problem, it's that it's really big. It's what, the third biggest mech in MWO? At 60 tons?

Going by miniature size (yeah yeah, I know, but it's not like we have anything else to compare with) the Quickdraw comes up to the Grasshopper's chin. Grasshopper mini is basically a skinny Banshee.

[1453 R]

Hospy, on 12 October 2014 - 12:34 PM, said:

I was comparing the previous poster's giant engined Grasshopper to get something really fast to something that is already in the game. Sure, the Grasshopper can bring better armor, but the engine cost to get something that fast gives the Quickdraw more effective tonnage to work with. And hi mounted energy hard points.

Quickdraw's blockiness isn't its problem, it's that it's really big. It's what, the third biggest mech in MWO? At 60 tons?

Going by miniature size (yeah yeah, I know, but it's not like we have anything else to compare with) the Quickdraw comes up to the Grasshopper's chin. Grasshopper mini is basically a skinny Banshee.

Fair points that do nothing to address that the Blaack Knight doesn't do a single thing the Awesome isn't already covering.

There's a chance, however slim any given individual may find it, that the Grasshopper could do what the Quickdraw was supposed to and be a mobile, agile energy striker, with increased durability to boot. I don't realistically see any chance the Black Knight could do anything except lose to TBR Laser Vomits that are more durable and carry stronger lasers in a faster chassis. Even if/when the TBR gets knocked on the head a bit, IS lasers are just too awful right now for a slow, outsized IS energy boat to have any impact.

This state is lamentable and should be addressed, but in the meantime the Grasshopper strikes me as a better IS energy-centrc heavy than the Knigget, simply due to not being a heavyweight-class Awesome.

[themoob]

the black knight doesn't have a torso the size of a barn, and is at the top of its weight class instead of the bottom, which makes it superior to the awesome.

[Hospy]

1453 R, on 12 October 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

Fair points that do nothing to address that the Blaack Knight doesn't do a single thing the Awesome isn't already covering.

There's a chance, however slim any given individual may find it, that the Grasshopper could do what the Quickdraw was supposed to and be a mobile, agile energy striker, with increased durability to boot. I don't realistically see any chance the Black Knight could do anything except lose to TBR Laser Vomits that are more durable and carry stronger lasers in a faster chassis. Even if/when the TBR gets knocked on the head a bit, IS lasers are just too awful right now for a slow, outsized IS energy boat to have any impact.

This state is lamentable and should be addressed, but in the meantime the Grasshopper strikes me as a better IS energy-centrc heavy than the Knigget, simply due to not being a heavyweight-class Awesome.

Well gee, if we're going to compare every mech to whether or not it loses to the Timber Wolf, PGI might as well stop making new mechs.

Awesome comparison is also pretty odd given that it's in the Assault class, and it's also the size of a barn with gigantic torso hit boxes.

If the Black Knight is a bad choice for being a heavy weight Awesome, what does that mean for the Grasshopper, which is just a bad version of a mech that is already in its weight class?

[1453 R]

Hospy, on 12 October 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Well gee, if we're going to compare every mech to whether or not it loses to the Timber Wolf, PGI might as well stop making new mechs.

Awesome comparison is also pretty odd given that it's in the Assault class, and it's also the size of a barn with gigantic torso hit boxes.

If the Black Knight is a bad choice for being a heavy weight Awesome, what does that mean for the Grasshopper, which is just a bad version of a mech that is already in its weight class?

Heh...losing to the Timber Wolf isn't necessarily so bad, as the Timber Wolf is certainly a ridiculous monster. That said, I don't foresee a 'Mech which many players in this thread are directly comparing to the TBR's best build managing to compete with it. Losing to the Timber Wolf whilst directly trying to do the TBR's job is certainly a mark against the machine, methinks. And since average-speed Laser Vomit is literally the only thing the Black Knight can do (besides slow Laser Vomit, anyways), it strikes me as reasonable to compare it to its nearest IS competitor, as well.

And frankly, the Quickdraw wouldn't be nearly so bad if it wasn't the size of a stack of houses itself. Even still, the Grasshopper is hardly a bad Quickdraw. You don't at all like the notion of a average-quick IS energy-centric jumper, but the notion of an average-slow IS energy-centric non-jumper somehow works out much better?

I just don't see the logic.

[Grey Ghost]

themoob, on 12 October 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

the black knight doesn't have a torso the size of a barn

That's pure speculation until we, at the very least, get to see the concept art.

[theta123]

3 frikking votes....this has to be the closest voting ever

[Hospy]

1453 R, on 12 October 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

Heh...losing to the Timber Wolf isn't necessarily so bad, as the Timber Wolf is certainly a ridiculous monster. That said, I don't foresee a 'Mech which many players in this thread are directly comparing to the TBR's best build managing to compete with it. Losing to the Timber Wolf whilst directly trying to do the TBR's job is certainly a mark against the machine, methinks. And since average-speed Laser Vomit is literally the only thing the Black Knight can do (besides slow Laser Vomit, anyways), it strikes me as reasonable to compare it to its nearest IS competitor, as well.

And frankly, the Quickdraw wouldn't be nearly so bad if it wasn't the size of a stack of houses itself. Even still, the Grasshopper is hardly a bad Quickdraw. You don't at all like the notion of a average-quick IS energy-centric jumper, but the notion of an average-slow IS energy-centric non-jumper somehow works out much better?

I just don't see the logic.

I'm referring to the Cataphract 3D, not the Quickdraw.

In any event, I prefer the Black McKnight because it offers something that the current IS lineup does not have currently, a dedicated heavy weight energy boat with a minimum of eight energy hard points. The closest we have at the moment is a Thunderbolt, a mech that suffers pretty heavily from the Awesome thickness problem.

The Grasshopper's niche of a heavyweight mobile jumper is one that can be filled by existing mechs, namely the 3D and the Quickdraw to a lesser extent. The other thing that severely worries me is that all of the Grasshoppers hard points, with the exception of the head mounted missile slot, are all low mounted, another thing it surrenders to the Cataphract.

As a tabletop player, yes I have a fond spot in my heart for the Grasshopper, but without DFA, melee, or random damage tables in MWO, I don't think it will nearly enjoy the same success in this medium.

[themoob]

Grey Ghost, on 12 October 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

That's pure speculation until we, at the very least, get to see the concept art.

alex doesn't just make up the mech... they're still based on something. so it's pretty darn unlikely the black knight will have anywhere near the torso size. and even still, its top of it's weight class, not bottom. can't dispute that.

[CycKath]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 11 October 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Do you really want Comstar supplying and supporting you? The Blakists cannot be trusted with your comms much less to defend you.

A Vote for Grasshopper is a vote for your freedom!

Which you are going to buy with MC of course, seeing you have chosen to forgo using ComStar-Bills...

[Uncle Totty]

Hospy, on 12 October 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Well gee, if we're going to compare every mech to whether or not it loses to the Timber Wolf, PGI might as well stop making new mechs.

This made me giggle.

[Nathan Foxbane]

CycKath, on 12 October 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Which you are going to buy with MC of course, seeing you have chosen to forgo using ComStar-Bills...

MC? Not if I can help it. Cold hard cash for a 'Mech pack sure.