72 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

Technoviking, on 21 November 2011 - 04:22 PM, said:

^ Pay to win with Cone of Fire! ^

I'd take faster gimbals, but not better dice rolls.

All weapon systems would have to have a counter balance - nothing could be that much more effective than others - it might be the most accurate, but it might not hit as hard, or might have a little bit shorter effective range or whatever.

[CeeKay Boques]

True true, pay to win was a little harsh, any of these weapons could be balanced by cool fluff factors. I'm letting my anti-CoF mix with my peanutbutter, and it wasn't delicious.

[Andrew Harvey]

Ghost, on 21 November 2011 - 01:03 PM, said:

Sidegrades. Sidegrades everywhere.

All seriousness though, I like this idea. In addition to small differences in characteristics, there were some pieces of equipment that were know to have issues. Introducing that aspect would be really interesting, though I'm sure it will make everyone who likes the 'lowest-bidder' Clint unhappy.

[Hollister]

so lasers would have four stats with heat staying the same. the stats would be damage, recharge time,range, accuracy and have them set on a scale of 1 to 10 with a 20 point total limit.

so laser A would be standard at 5 acc, 5 dmg, 5 rchg, 5 range.

while laser B is 5 acc, 3dmg, 8 rchg, 4 range

laser C is 8 acc, 8 dmg, 1 rchg, 3 range.

and so on for a example of this.

Edited by Hollister, 21 November 2011 - 05:23 PM.

[CeeKay Boques]

Hollister, on 21 November 2011 - 05:19 PM, said:

so lasers would have for stats with heat staying the same. the stats would be damage, recharge time,range, accuracy and have them set on a scale of 1 to 10 with a 20 point total limit.

so laser A would be standard at 5 acc, 5 dmg, 5 rchg, 5 range.

while laser B is 5 acc, 3dmg, 8 rchg, 4 range

laser C is 8 acc, 8 dmg 1 rchg, 3 range.

and so on.

Yeah... I guess, that's a math game though. I'd rather seem them FUNCTION differently. From Sarna on AC20s:

Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range.
An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower (possibly 1 shell), and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output.

The Crusher would perfom WAY differently than the Chemjet. Just changing their stats would be akin to a Diablo/WoW type dressing up of your Mech. I would rather they do something diffrent, have a different crosshair. Something fluffy rather than mathmatical.

[Hollister]

I was just using that for lasers since there is really nothing else you can do to them to make them unique. A/C's should function how they are said to function while still doing there respectively rated damage.

[Andrew Harvey]

Technoviking, on 21 November 2011 - 05:25 PM, said:

The Crusher would perfom WAY differently than the Chemjet.

That's a really interesting idea. Those Chemjet guns would be the bane of Light 'Mechs everywhere. Having a single round rather than a stream would mean it'd be harder to hit smaller/faster 'Mechs. But 'oh man, when you do get a shell on target? Critical hits for everyone.

[VYCanis]

Hollister, on 21 November 2011 - 05:32 PM, said:

I was just using that for lasers since there is really nothing else you can do to them to make them unique. A/C's should function how they are said to function while still doing there respectively rated damage.

not true

lasers

Duration of fire- Longer duration means that the laser is easier to hit a target with, but much harder to concentrate damage with.
damage per second
recycle rate
heat per second
effective range- point after which damage begins to drop off
color
price
resiliency- how much damage they can take before breaking

Straight up taking a page from the ngng podcasts, but if you have a light mech and your main armament is a med laser or 2, it would be in your interest to take the most expensive medium laser you can buy with a lot of focus in one particular performance aspect, as opposed to a more balanced model, as this med laser is your main gun, so what if it runs like a heat hog.

However a larger larger mech that might carry quad medium lasers as a compliment to bigger weapons, they'd probably want cheaper/more balanced/cooler running models since if they were to try the same type of overclocked lasers they might be too expensive to replace as they break in combat, or simply overtax their heat budget for that chassis, or both.

Such a weapon approach allows players to customize their rides to vary in performance without actually diverging from their original loadouts.


different weapon categories can have their own types of variable factors

Edited by VYCanis, 22 November 2011 - 12:19 AM.

[Hollister]

So I have been thinking how the four stats I had with the lasers could transfer over to other weapons with out making them over powered and cater to peoples wants or needs. I am going to use the same thing I had with the lasers, so one major characteristic about the weapon will not change, while 4 stats about it can to suit a persons needs. These stats would also not be big enough as to change it into something that is not within its own category but still enough to make it some what unique. What I mean by this is that a PPC should never be equal to a clan ER PPC in damage and range, ect

Will also give basic examples of each.

I will start with A/C's as that was already talked about. I hope i explain this enough so people can understand.


With A/C's the one thing that will not change is the amount of rounds fired to the specific amount of damage that A/C does.
What could change is the Range, Accuracy, reload time, Kinetic forces/recoil. I choose these because they are the best I could come up with that would balance each other out. What I mean by kinetic forces/ recoil is the amount of recoil produced is when fired and kinetic forces the A/C does when it hits a mech. So a A/C with alot of kinetic forces may beable to knock a mech down easy, it will also knock itself down if running to fast or to much of a degreed slope. This also includes LBX's I decided to give them the same stats because changing the choke or spread of the pellets would just turn them into head shot cannons.


So a A/C with a Rng 3, Acc 3, RT 7, KF/R 7. This A/C may reload fast and has more recoil but, it does not have the range or accuracy it needs to hit far of mechs.

While a Rng 8, Acc, 7, RT 3, KF/R 2 This A/C would be able to hit mechs more far off into the distance, but has more reload time and less kinetic forces on the mech it is hitting.


Moving on to missles.

The one thing about missles that would not change is the range. The four stats that would are, damage, accuracy, time to target, ammo. Accuracy does not mean lock on, it refers to the missles abiltiy to fly straight. Time to target is how fast the missle flies in the air before it reaches the target.

A missle of dmg 7, acc, 3, TtT 7, Am 3. this missle may have more damage and fly faster, the amount of accuracy it has and ammo you have are far less so the need to make each shot count is needed to make use of such missles.

Another missle would be dmg 3, acc 7, TtT3, Am 7. This missle while having more ammo and straight line accuracy you are lacking damage and increasing the amount of time it takes to hit the target.

PPC

The one thing that would not change is the accuracy since that is one of the biggest characteristics about PPC's, what would change is damage, range, recharge time, heat.

A PPC of dmg 8, range 2, rchg 3, heat 7 so this PPC would have more damage, have less heat, longer recharge time, and less range

While another PPC is dmg 3, rng 7, rchg 3, heat 7. this PPC would have more range and less heat, at the cost of a longer recharge time and less damage.

I could not think of anything for Gauss rifles to make them a little more unique, so would most likely group all ballistics into one category.

I am not trying to turn the game into something it is not, just want to make it slightly more unique to a players combat style and how they want to fight.

Edited by Hollister, 22 November 2011 - 01:16 AM.

[Hollister]

VYCanis, on 22 November 2011 - 12:18 AM, said:

not true lasers Duration of fire- Longer duration means that the laser is easier to hit a target with, but much harder to concentrate damage with. damage per second recycle rate heat per second effective range- point after which damage begins to drop off color price resiliency- how much damage they can take before breaking Straight up taking a page from the ngng podcasts, but if you have a light mech and your main armament is a med laser or 2, it would be in your interest to take the most expensive medium laser you can buy with a lot of focus in one particular performance aspect, as opposed to a more balanced model, as this med laser is your main gun, so what if it runs like a heat hog. However a larger larger mech that might carry quad medium lasers as a compliment to bigger weapons, they'd probably want cheaper/more balanced/cooler running models since if they were to try the same type of overclocked lasers they might be too expensive to replace as they break in combat, or simply overtax their heat budget for that chassis, or both. Such a weapon approach allows players to customize their rides to vary in performance without actually diverging from their original loadouts. different weapon categories can have their own types of variable factors

I can see where you are going with this but im trying to make this easyer to balance and not be a head ache for some people as this is a game for the masses. I also think that some aspects of lasers should not be changable like color. A Clan ER Laser should be green, while a Inner sphere laser should be red. Also i am just using this as a reference, as comments and opinions that improve overall end game play are always needed.

[VYCanis]

I see your point about wanting to streamline it, but disagree, i think having more variable stats would make the weapon easier to balance, and create a greater degree of variance, and makes them feel more like real weapons.

you can probably do a borderlands approach. which would be a lot of fun i think.

different manufacturers favoring different aspects.

i mean, just look at the list, imagine the fun people can have with looting.

Models

The Medium Laser is manufactured on the following planets: Brand Planet Company
Aberdovey Mk II Epsilon Eridani Kressly Warworks
Allied Technologies 2 Nirasaki New Age Systems Incorporated
Argra 1L New Samarkand New Samarkand Armor Works
Argra 3L Aix-la-Chapelle Diplan 'Mechyards
Argra 3L Luthien Defiance Motors
Blankenburg Terra Blankenburg Technologies
Bowie Electronics Terra Bowie Industries
Ceres Arms Capella Ceres Metals Industries
Ceres Arms St. Ives Ceres Metals Industries
ChisComp 38 New Avalon Achernar BattleMechs
ChisComp 39 New Avalon Achernar BattleMechs
Defiance B3M Coventry Coventry Metal Works
Defiance B3M Furillo Defiance Industries
Defiance B3M Hesperus II Defiance Industries
Defiance B3M Pandora Red Devil Industries
Defiance B3M Storfors J.B. BattleMechs Incorporated
Diplan M3 Luthien Defiance Motors
Diplass Optimax Apollo Diplass Technologies
Diverse Optics Type 2 Corey Hellespont Industrials
Diverse Optics Type 2 Lushann Lushann Industrials Limited
Diverse Optics Type 2 New Vandenburg Concordat Telecom and TransStellar
Diverse Optics Type 2 Sian Hellespont 'Mech Works
Diverse Optics Type 2 Sterope Sterope Defense Industries
Diverse Optics Type 14 Chahar Trellshire Heavy Industries
Diverse Optics Type 18 Alphard Marian Arms Incorporated
Diverse Optics Type 18 Chahar Trellshire Heavy Industries
Diverse Optics Type 18 Irian Diverse Optics Incorporated
Diverse Optics Type 18 Sterope Sterope Defense Industries
Diverse Optics Type 20 Kessel Diverse Optics Incorporated
Firefly Type II Apollo Roe Weapon Systems
Firmir Standard Betelgeuse Firmir Weaponry
Harmon Starclass Son Hoa StarCorp Industries
Hellion B-II Andurien Free Worlds Defense Industries
Hellion B-II Westover Free Worlds Defense Industries
Hellion Spitfire Terra Ford Military Limited
Hellion-V Andurien Bergan Industries
Hellion-V Andurien Brooks, Inc.
Hellion-V Irian Irian BattleMechs Unlimited
Hellion-V Kalidasa Kali Yama Weapons Industries Incorporated
Hellion-V Kendall Bergan Industries
Hellion-V Kendall Brooks, Inc.
Hellion-V Shiro III Grumman Amalgamated
Hellion-V Trellisane Gutierrez Aerospace
Intek Asuncion Kallon Industries
Intek Arc-Royal TharHes Industries
Intek New Syrtis Johnston Industries
Intek Terra Leopard Armor
Irian Weapons Works Super 6 Irian Irian BattleMechs Unlimited
Irian Weapons Works Super 6 Kendall Kali Yama - Alphard Trading Corporation
Kajuka Type 2 Bright Blossom Sian Saroyan Special Projects
Kajuka Type 2 Bright Blossom Texlos Kajuka (Aerospace Division)
Krieger Orestes Odin Manufacturing
Krieger Terra Pandora 'Mech Works
Krupp Model 2 Mars Krupp Stellar Technologies Inc.
Magna Mk II Kalidasa Kali Yama Weapons Industries Incorporated
Magna Mk II Lopez Magna
Magna Mk II Mars General Mechanics
Magna Mk II New Valencia General Motors
Magna Mk II Shiro III Irian BattleMechs Unlimited
Magna Mk II Stewart Corean Enterprises
Magna Mk II Twycross Trellshire Heavy Industries
Martell Alshain Bergan Industries
Martell Model 5 Canopus IV Majesty Metals and Manufacturing
Martell Corey Hollis Incorporated
Martell Delavan Dynamico Limited
Martell Fletcher Flame Tech
Martell El Dorado General Motors
Martell Pinard Pinard Protectorates Limited
Martell Terra Skobel MechWorks
Martell Stewart Corean Enterprises
Martell Victoria Shengli Arms
Martell Wallis Ronin Incorporated
Maxell Chukchi III Maxell Metals Incorporated
Maxell TR Terra Bowie Industries
Maxell-UD6 Terra Caletra Fighters
Omicron 950 Terra Aldis Industries
Omicron 3000 Campbelton Fusigon Heavy Weaponry
Omicron 3000 Illiushin Vandenberg Mechanized Industries
Omicron 4000 Campbelton Fusigon Heavy Weaponry
OMI HighBurn New Earth New Earth Trading Company
Photech 806c New Avalon Corean Enterprises
Phototech 806c Terra StarCorps Industries
RAMTech 800 New Kyoto RAMTech
Rassal Blue-Beam Arcturus Arcturan Arms
Sapphire Terra Grumman Industries
Starflash Terra Leopard Armor
Starflash Terra Skobel MechWorks
Starflash II Amity Imstar Aerospace
Starflash II Atreus Imstar Aerospace
Starflash II Trellisane Grumman Amalgamated
Victory 23R Marduk Victory - (Norse BattleMech Works)

[SeDevri]

Hollister, on 22 November 2011 - 01:02 AM, said:

With A/C's the one thing that will not change is the amount of rounds fired to the specific amount of damage that A/C does.

The one thing about missles that would not change is the range.

Actually these are some of the things that SHOULD be variable as described in the table top game books.

For ACs the Damage shouldn't change but might be based off the number of shot fired(ie. one AC5 fires 5 shots that do 1 damage each while another might fire 1 shot for 5 damage.) This would also allow people to choose which type they are more comfortable with.

For missiles the only thing that shouldn't change is the amount of missiles fired(based on there type, ie. LRM20 fires 20 missiles, an SRM6 fires 6 missiles)

[SeDevri]

VYCanis, on 22 November 2011 - 02:21 AM, said:

I see your point about wanting to streamline it, but disagree, i think having more variable stats would make the weapon easier to balance, and create a greater degree of variance, and makes them feel more like real weapons.

you can probably do a borderlands approach. which would be a lot of fun i think.

different manufacturers favoring different aspects.

i mean, just look at the list, imagine the fun people can have with looting.

This! I love the game Borderlands, though obviously the variance wouldn't be nearly as wide, but still it would be awesome to see that much variety.

[Corsair114]

I do think lasers should be accurate. Probably should be their defining characteristic, even. Ballistics have to lead the target, you hope the bullets get to the same place as the poor fellow you're blazing away at, but you can't ever really guarantee they'll arrive. This makes them less than ideal against small, fast moving 'mechs like Jenners or Fleas. However, they generate low heat relative to missiles or lasers, which makes them very appealing just by virtue of the fact that they simplify heat management.

Lasers don't blow you up with ammo explosions, despite the fact that, outside of unfriendly fire, they're 2nd leading cause for spontaneous ammo evacuation (now just now pulling ahead of bad Taco Bell food). Ok, maybe a little loss in accuracy in the form of a damage gradient, but firing 15 degrees off point habitually would make me a sad panda. Or recoil (not, specifically mean lasers, PPC's are a whole different beast). Or I could have read VYCanis's post and simply liked it. Probably would have saved me some typing, even. Exactly along the lines I was thinking.

Missiles... what's their defining characteristic? In games, classically, they never miss and they hurt, but are easy to neutralize. Buildings get in the way, they get shot down by a Phoenix LAM, etc. They also tend to be relatively slow. See, these are the tricky ones, and the thing you want to watch out for when coming up with variables that make something a Always/Never weapon. If you build an AC that randomly blows up on people, then not a sole will use it (much, seen my fair share of crazies, and juicers, and...). Unless it is hideously overpowered (like it's the best of its type ever until it jams / breaks / melts / Folds into a different place in the time-space continuity), at which point you have the problem where it becomes the only gun of its type worth having.

Ok, it's almost three in the morning and I'm not entirely certain why I stopped by, but please, come up with some ideas for missiles. Can't for the life of me think of any where one is... huh, could just use the various ammo types. Gives them a flexibility direct-fire weapons will never have. Nifty. Launchers are the launcher, ammo's the part that's mutable (have Inferno SRM, will cook your laser boat).

[Hollister]

SeDevri, on 22 November 2011 - 02:26 AM, said:

Actually these are some of the things that SHOULD be variable as described in the table top game books.

For ACs the Damage shouldn't change but might be based off the number of shot fired(ie. one AC5 fires 5 shots that do 1 damage each while another might fire 1 shot for 5 damage.) This would also allow people to choose which type they are more comfortable with.

For missiles the only thing that shouldn't change is the amount of missiles fired(based on there type, ie. LRM20 fires 20 missiles, an SRM6 fires 6 missiles)

That is what I ment by "With A/C's the one thing that will not change is the amount of rounds fired to the specific amount of damage that A/C does. "

As for missles a SRM 6 will always fire 6 missles, but things that can change are dmg, straight line accuracy, ammo, and time to target. Which leads to over all missle characteristics, as in a bigger sized missle can pack more explosives meaning more dmg but would take up more room in a magazine meaning less ammo, also straight line guidence equipement would take room up inside of a missle taking away from its ability to do more damage, fly faster, ect. A missles time to target would also take up room since more fuel would be needed since it is burning it faster. These are some of the reasons I choose those changable stats since a missle is only so big and can only fit so much in it, and bigger missles take up more room in magazines.

[Moppelkotze]

Don't you have AC and UAC for that?
AC fires slower doing more damage per hit, UAC fires faster doing less damage per hit.
Same with pulse and beam lasers. Different types of lasers with different behavior
although they are in the same class (small, medium, large).
I also fear that the difference between those classes could neraly vanish.
So a high damage medium laser should never do as much damage as the "worst" heavy laser.
Same with heat.

[VYCanis]

i imagine that with missiles you can also have different types of flight performance for any given launcher

maybe one srm 6 system fires its 6 shots all at once, with some guidance, in a zig zagging cluster, at a slight angle for a little extra range but sacrificing close range performance, and has a slightly slower than average missile speed compared to other launchers, and hits for lower than average damage and knock.

where as another brand of srm 6, the shots volley out in 3 pairs, have next to no guidance, fire straight at no angle, and have a high missile speed. and hit for higher than average damage and knock.

The former would be great for saturating faster moving targets out at the far end of the short range bracket, but would suck in a point blank brawl or in a city.

the latter would be great at really close ranges. or in a city

so long as pushing any one aspect pulls down another somewhere else, you can have some very interesting balance.

like say there is an srm system that is at the upper limit of damage per missile and speed. but, yeah, no guidance, zig zags, has lower than average range, fires one missile at a time, and has a slower than average recycle rate. It'll hit like a dump truck, but good luck getting them to go where you want.

[Moppelkotze]

So you have a SSRM6 and 3 SRM2 ?

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Moppelkotze, on 22 November 2011 - 03:58 AM, said:

Don't you have AC and UAC for that?
AC fires slower doing more damage per hit, UAC fires faster doing less damage per hit.

No, UAC can fire at double the rate of a comparable AC.
Effectively doing *twice* the damage, at twice the ammo consumption rate, along with a chance to jam.
Sort-of comparable to the single and double shot on the AN-94.
That's the entire strength of an UAC, the capacity to do double the amount of damage for roughly the same weapon tonnage/space. AC/5 is 8 tons/4 crits, UAC/5 is 9 tons/5 crits. Bad example, ofcourse, since the AC/5 sucks.

TacOps has a rule that lets regular ACs fire at the same rate as an UAC, but at a much higher chance to jam than an UAC.

Quote

So a high damage medium laser should never do as much damage as the "worst" heavy laser.

A Heavy Small Laser does more damage than an IS Medium Laser, btw. xD
Same damage as an IS Pulse Laser.
Then again, we're comparing IS tech with ClanTech here.

[Xhaleon]

Alizabeth Aijou, on 22 November 2011 - 06:03 AM, said:

No, UAC can fire at double the rate of a comparable AC.
Effectively doing *twice* the damage, at twice the ammo consumption rate, along with a chance to jam.
Sort-of comparable to the single and double shot on the AN-94.
That's the entire strength of an UAC, the capacity to do double the amount of damage for roughly the same weapon tonnage/space. AC/5 is 8 tons/4 crits, UAC/5 is 9 tons/5 crits. Bad example, ofcourse, since the AC/5 sucks.

If CBT didn't use the ridiculous cluster hit table for rapid fire weapons, UACs would simultaneously be not-so-useless and horribly-broken; UAC/5 and UAC/20 respectively for those.