132 replies to this topic

[Hillslam]

Voted grasshopper.

Black knight is stupid. Way too 80s manga.

[SgtMagor]

just thought this was interesting, that some peeps weren't voting for the BK because there is no melee, but isn't the Hopper just as famous for its melee abilities as the Black Knight, even though Sarna doesn't mention the Hopper using any melee attacks?

[Nathan Foxbane]

SgtMagor, on 05 October 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

just thought this was interesting, that some peeps weren't voting for the BK because there is no melee, but isn't the Hopper just as famous for its melee abilities as the Black Knight, even though Sarna doesn't mention the Hopper using any melee attacks?

No it is not. It is famous for being a good jack-of-all-trades 'Mech with an extremely rugged and reliable design. Even the Black Knight is not famous for its melee ability. Just one official variant and one custom 'Mech: BL-9-KNT (Clanbuster) and BL-6/10-KNT Ian/Ross.

[Escef]

SgtMagor, on 05 October 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

just thought this was interesting, that some peeps weren't voting for the BK because there is no melee, but isn't the Hopper just as famous for its melee abilities as the Black Knight, even though Sarna doesn't mention the Hopper using any melee attacks?

Melee in TT actually favors the Knight over the Hopper. To punch the Hopper goes down to 2 medium lasers and a large, the Knight punches harder and goes down to a small, 2 mediums, and 2 larges. If you go for kicks the Knight still wins, it kicks harder. Only thing the Hopper has is DFA, which is stupid risky.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Escef, on 05 October 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

Given that it makes every letter you post, including lower case, larger than the default font's uppercase, it looks like you are using some kind of Super Caps Lock. It's annoying. And since you insist upon using it, I'm just going to block you so that I don't have to see it.

Wow look at that. Discrimination over text size. You saw it here first folks! 10/5/2014. Im gonna write it down on my swimsuit calender with Escef's name next to it!

Edited by Alwrath, 05 October 2014 - 11:59 AM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Escef, on 05 October 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Melee in TT actually favors the Knight over the Hopper. To punch the Hopper goes down to 2 medium lasers and a large, the Knight punches harder and goes down to a small, 2 mediums, and 2 larges. If you go for kicks the Knight still wins, it kicks harder. Only thing the Hopper has is DFA, which is stupid risky.

If you get initiative the Grasshopper positions much better. Since jump jets are carte blanch for facing changes, getting melee attacks into thin rear is much easier. If the engagement terrain is chosen right, loosing the initiative roll is a non issue since it can just jump right back into cover. In a slugging match, though the BK as the advantage due to mass. Well, I guess that would also depend on the BK too. Compared against a 7-KNT the GHR gets a slight advantage because the BK has two tons less armor.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 05 October 2014 - 12:01 PM.

[Deathlike]

Just FFS.

Let me address a comment before I get to my main points (posted in that voting thread)...

Mcgral18, on 03 October 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Neither are very good choices, both will need some hardpoint inflation.

All variants are nearly identical.


HammerHands would have been nicer, a 75 tonner with Dakka and JJs.

I took a quick look at the Hammerhands, and I'm sure it's epic awesome, but the primary variant listed is slow (it is as bad as a Cataphract-4X, in terms of speed, so it'll suffer with the base engine cap rule PGI is using). Can someone fill me in if there's a faster variant or what the projected engine cap happens to be? I can't see it being good (I just looked it up, it'll be capped @ 270, which doesn't even give you the extra heatsink option slot from a 275+ engine).

The arms of the BK are large... if the mech's scale+hitboxes are designed correctly, then it's great for shielding... just like the Centurion and Victor. It is possible to be as bad as an Awesome though. We'll have to see what it ends up looking like. At worst, the BK will have 5 energy hardpoints at high points of the mech (2 @ RT, LT and 1 on the head).

The Grasshopper has energy hardpoints spread out... which even on the Primary variant, it is one across the board (LA, RA, LT, RT, CT)... and generally speaking the CT energy hardpoint tends to be low mounted (it's not always guaranteed though) so that means you'll have to JJ higher (but, we'll see if that will be the case). Trying to use the arms as shields will limit firepower to the LT and RT (and the head for some variants), so to say that the Grasshopper will be superior is not a given.

It has ALWAYS been dependent on scaling and hitboxes.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Deathlike, on 05 October 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

Just FFS.

Let me address a comment before I get to my main points (posted in that voting thread)...



I took a quick look at the Hammerhands, and I'm sure it's epic awesome, but the primary variant listed is slow (it is as bad as a Cataphract-4X, in terms of speed, so it'll suffer with the base engine cap rule PGI is using). Can someone fill me in if there's a faster variant or what the projected engine cap happens to be? I can't see it being good (I just looked it up, it'll be capped @ 270, which doesn't even give you the extra heatsink option slot from a 275+ engine).

In addition to being extinct (which makes bring it up moot), it does not get a better engine in any variant. There are also only two very extinct versions at this point in the time line.

Deathlike, on 05 October 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

The arms of the BK are large... if the mech's scale+hitboxes are designed correctly, then it's great for shielding... just like the Centurion and Victor. It is possible to be as bad as an Awesome though. We'll have to see what it ends up looking like. At worst, the BK will have 5 energy hardpoints at high points of the mech (2 @ RT, LT and 1 on the head).

The Grasshopper has energy hardpoints spread out... which even on the Primary variant, it is one across the board (LA, RA, LT, RT, CT)... and generally speaking the CT energy hardpoint tends to be low mounted (it's not always guaranteed though) so that means you'll have to JJ higher (but, we'll see if that will be the case). Trying to use the arms as shields will limit firepower to the LT and RT (and the head for some variants), so to say that the Grasshopper will be superior is not a given.

It has ALWAYS been dependent on scaling and hitboxes.

Well, there's your problem, despite some good durability, using the mobile Grasshopper to poptart or brawl heavily is not optimal. It is not suppose to anchor a battle line, it is supposed to augment the anchors. Hit-and-run and as a mobile response 'Mech to fill up gaps or exploit weaknesses is where it shines.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 05 October 2014 - 12:32 PM.

[Escef]

Nathan Foxbane, on 05 October 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

If you get initiative the Grasshopper positions much better.

That can be said of any mech with initiative. But, yes, jump jets. Everything's better with jump jets. However, the Hopper's maneuver advantage against the Knight can easily be mitigated by terrain and other units on the Knights side (you don't jump a Hopper behind the Knight if there's a Hunchie 2 hexes behind him).

In a knock down, drag out, one-on-one between a Knight and a Hopper, it really does come down to initiative rolls. Bad rolls on the Hopper's side make melee a bad idea. As a member of a force, I'll take the Hopper over the Knight most of the time, jets have too much potential.

[Keeshu]

I see them both getting into the game eventually. I'll just do a little comparison.

All 4 timeline appropriate Black Knights have the following hardpoints:
2E RT, 2E LT, 2E RA, 1E LA, 1E Head
Always a small laser in the head, 4 Medium lasers spread throughout the sections, 2 Large Lasers in the side torsos, and varying types of Large laser or PPC in the right arm.

Minimum hardpoints for each Grasshopper:
5H: 1E CT, 1E RT, 1E LT, 1E RA, 1E LA, 1M Head
5N: 2E RT, 1E LT, 1E RA, 1E LA, 1E Head
5J: 1E CT, 1 AMS RT, 1E RA, 1E LA, 1M Head



Pros for Black Knight:
#1 Monty Python reference, and being on the cover+name for an expansion for Mechwarrior 4.
#2 Slightly more armor due to being 75 tons instead of 70 tons. However, if using the same speed with a standard, you'll have almost the same amount of weapon space (more or less depending on which speed you are going on the mechs).
#3 More Energy Hardpoints (8 Energy, However 1 is a head laser), compared to Grasshopper (minimum 3-6 depending on the variant)

Pros for Grasshopper:
#1 Relatively unseen mech, which makes MWO more interesting and makes it more different from previous Mechwarrior titles.
#2 Jumpjets to allow better positioning, and making it easier to attack then cool off (or you can take them off for heat sinks if you wish to do so)
#3 CT Energy, and Head missile means it will always be able to fight as long as it's alive. (Personally I'll be putting a Large laser + SRM 4 in those slots)


Similarities:
Both energy boaters, that can be compared to other mechs. Black Knight with the Awesome 8Q. Grasshopper with the Quickdraw (Which is 10 tons lighter) and Cataphract 3D (which lacks CT+Head hardpoints and has lower arms in exchange for 2 Ballistic Hardpoints).

They are both capable of Zombieing quite well.
Black Knight will have 2 Energy slots per torso with 1E in the head.
The Grasshopper has 1E per torso, 1E CT, 1M Head. 5N being the exception with 2E RT, 1E LT, 1E HD (but no CT).
They maybe a bit slim, but I believe that they will still be very easy to hit the side torsos on, so they will probably be able to kill through side torso if they use an XL. We'll have to see their in-game model to really decide though.

Alex is a mastermind at making mechs look good so they will probably look awesome whenever they get in the game anyways.


My personal conclusion:
If you want to run a higher energy alpha with slightly more armor and don't care for jumpjets, go Black Knight
If you want to have a Jumpjetting mech, and run cooler (due to lack of energy weapon slots), go Grasshopper.







Personally I prefer the Grasshopper. I'd run 1 ER Large (CT), 2 Large Lasers (1 per side torso), 2 Medium lasers (1 per arm), 1 SRM 4 (head), 4 Jumpjets, 6 Extra Double Heat sinks, 4 Jumpjets, BAP (for my LRM friends and because information is ammunition), Standard 280 (would like it faster but I wanted to have more firepower).
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...029ccd467c72973
Though you'll have to do a little bit of imagining since we don't have the grasshopper in smurfy yet. Imagine the Medium pulse laser is 2 Medium lasers, and the 2 extra tons of SRM ammo is the SRM 4 in the head. Pretend the ER large is in the CT, and the 2 Large lasers are in the side torsos.


However, if I were to do a Black Knight I'd do this: 2 ER Large Lasers (1 per side torso) 2 Large Lasers (1 per side torso), 4 Medium Lasers (or 3 Medium 1 Tag), BAP, Standard 300, 6 extra Double Heat Sinks. Max Armor
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...631de382b0d5979
Orion is the closest thing to it. Pretend the ER and Normal Large Lasers are in the Side Torsos, and pretend the ac/10 ammos are medium lasers.

[El Bandito]

Deathlike, on 05 October 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

It has ALWAYS been dependent on scaling and hitboxes.

Very true. Hence I think the mech with more zombie potential and slimmer profile (similar build but 5 tons lighter) is safer bet. The Grasshopper.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 October 2014 - 03:27 PM.

[El Bandito]

Edited the OP to correct 2 common mistakes people make about the Grasshopper.

[Livewyr]

Why exactly do we want an inferior copy of the CTF-3D?

[Escef]

Livewyr, on 06 October 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

Why exactly do we want an inferior copy of the CTF-3D?

When did the 3D gain a missile slot? Or have the ability to zombie with CT or head weapons?

[Deathlike]

Escef, on 06 October 2014 - 10:57 AM, said:

When did the 3D gain a missile slot? Or have the ability to zombie with CT or head weapons?

Only the Cataphract-4X would be referenced for both, and it's arguably the worst phract of the bunch.

The ability to zombie with a missile head hardpoint is not actually a huge plus.

[Escef]

Deathlike, on 06 October 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

Only the Cataphract-4X would be referenced for both, and it's arguably the worst phract of the bunch.

The ability to zombie with a missile head hardpoint is not actually a huge plus.

Not particularly, but than the only thing we have that can do it is the 4X, which is slow as hell and long outclassed by the Jagers.

[El Bandito]

Deathlike, on 06 October 2014 - 06:30 PM, said:

Only the Cataphract-4X would be referenced for both, and it's arguably the worst phract of the bunch.

The ability to zombie with a missile head hardpoint is not actually a huge plus.

CTF-4X is a cool running ballistic mech with no weight/need available for the SRM4, due to heavy ACs it boats. Grasshopper is an energy only mech with plenty of weight that can be spared for the SRM4.

Hence your example is flawed if you cite the CTF-4X. One huge reason that CTF-4X sucks is due to 255 engine lock. Grasshopper can potentially get engine rating up to 340, judging from other CTF variants. Plus it can jump.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 October 2014 - 07:02 PM.

[El Bandito]

Livewyr, on 06 October 2014 - 10:46 AM, said:

Why exactly do we want an inferior copy of the CTF-3D?

Cause even an inferior copy of the 3D is still better than a slightly smaller AWS-8Q.

And to quote Vassago Rain again:

Quote

A weaksauce jumper is almost always better than an average walking robot, for obvious reasons.

Bad Knight is an average ground bound mech. Therefore GHR is the better choice. But if you wish to vote for the sake of aesthetic reasons instead of performance, then be my guest.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 October 2014 - 07:12 PM.

[Deathlike]

Escef, on 06 October 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Not particularly, but than the only thing we have that can do it is the 4X, which is slow as hell and long outclassed by the Jagers.

Actually, the other mech that can do it is the Shadowhawk... but not the 2K.

The difference is that most builds that use said head missile hardpoint are Streakboats, SRM boats, or LRM boats... even if we end putting 2 of them on it (they also happen to have a CT missile hardpoint to boot, minus the 2K).

El Bandito, on 06 October 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

CTF-4X is a cool running ballistic mech with no weight/need available for the SRM4, due to heavy ACs it boats. Grasshopper is an energy only mech with plenty of weight that can be spared for the SRM4.

Hence your example is flawed if you cite the CTF-4X. One huge reason that CTF-4X sucks is due to 255 engine lock. Grasshopper can potentially get engine rating up to 340, judging from other CTF variants. Plus it can jump.

I'm not saying the CTF-4X is a good example, but rather that it isn't the priority due to obvious design decisions. Putting 1 SRM4 on the head for an energy heavy mech is a waste of something that could be used for more DHS... and ALL energy heavy mechs need DHS.

Edited by Deathlike, 06 October 2014 - 11:11 PM.

[Deathlike]

Let me put it in better terms...

Let's use the Quickdraw-5K as the best "example" for lots of energy hardpoints, and a missile hardpoint.

I suggest people actually put together AND run good builds using that missile hardpoint and builds not with it.

You'll quickly find out that the tonnage is BEST used for more DHS and larger lasers and/or PPCs with most of the damage dealt by Medium Lasers. The Missile hardpoint is effectively "a novelty slot" generally speaking, unless you think a 6 Med Laser/MPL build is a good idea.