348 replies to this topic

[Adiuvo]

Mcgral18, on 04 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

I'm gonna call bullshit on that one.

I'm saying 12 goddamn weapons shouldn't hit the same pixel if you fire them all at once.


Of course, I guess some people want CoD 3050, rather than a BattleTech game. Neither do they want any challenge in a game.


Fire everything, hit the same pixel, twist, wait for heat levels to alpha again, FIRE EVERYTHING, hit the same pixel, twist again.
So goddamned easy.

Since you can only do that with lasers.

Fire everything, hit the same pixel, hold onto same pixel for 1 second responding to dips in terrain and enemy mech torso twisting, twist, overheat.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kjudoon, on 04 October 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

Could always replace the target reticule with several ones in a cluster. Then with pinpoint skill tree advancment, shrink the cluster by half. No more insta-Alpha-Gauss-death because 80 point alphas land all on the same bodypart, but you're going to get stuff blown clean off. Want that single target reticule, only have one in a weapon group and use that.

Oh, and shake them all while moving in different ways.

The same people who claimed motion sickness would be back if we used this!

[Adiuvo]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 October 2014 - 10:21 AM, said:

Shooting requires a slow even pull. MW:O needs *CLICK* *CLICK* *CLICK* Not even close to the same thing Aduivo.

Nobody is under the impression that MWO compares to real life when we're piloting robots that would collapse under their own weight.

Though I always did want to use one of those sim pod things...

Edited by Adiuvo, 04 October 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Adiuvo, on 04 October 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Since you can only do that with lasers.

Fire everything, hit the same pixel, hold onto same pixel for 1 second responding to dips in terrain and enemy mech torso twisting, twist, overheat.

Take 2 pistols to the range. See if you can put both rounds through ONE hole? Please! I'll give you a few years practice. Come back when you can do it when moving!

[Kjudoon]

Adiuvo, on 04 October 2014 - 10:22 AM, said:

Since you can only do that with lasers.

Fire everything, hit the same pixel, hold onto same pixel for 1 second responding to dips in terrain and enemy mech torso twisting, twist, overheat.

Thus proving the point that pinpoint damage is an unfair advantage if given perfect convergiance, and why Clan ballistics now have DPS delivery.

I'd even go to allow total convergence if the shooter is standing perfectly still for a set period of time (3-5 seconds like getting LRM locks on ECM protected mechs) otherwise, it's a bouncing, jangling cluster. You want to snipe, no more snap shooting.

Hey, if we got cockpit shake, we may as well look at this too.

Edited by Kjudoon, 04 October 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Adiuvo, on 04 October 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Nobody is under the impression that MWO compares to real life when we're piloting robots that would collapse under their own weight.

Though I always did want to use one of those sim pod things...

I did use one of the Pods. The guys involved were absolutely the greatest gang of scoundrels Ever!

I want it to seem Like it could happen in real life. And I don't see Battleships using a 3' diameter target to fire a broadside at!

As for the walking Robots... That I can suspend disbelief for cause its cool!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Adiuvo, on 04 October 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

People are more likely to blame something that they don't control over something they control.

Bad players don't consider themselves getting shot at as something they have an influence over. It's basically impossible to somehow blame something else for your shots though.

I've spectated enough people that even when taking into account spectator lag, it's just obvious that they're bad at shooting.

Your point?
What people blame does not matter, that is kind of the turning point of any player is realizing you did have control over getting shot by all the bad dudes.

Again, Im still seeing people resort to the sort of strawman that people suggesting CoF want aiming nerfed. Most of us want pinpoint alpha strikes nerfed, not aiming. So if you stagger your shots by a quarter of a second to make sure they hit where you aim but also allows people to peek around terrain without fear they are going to peek around and lose a section thanks to a massive alpha strike.....

In MW4, the massive alpha strikes were more acceptable because losing a section did not entail losing any others meaning side torso destruction did not destroy the arm nor did you die if you had an IS XL, and they also had a huge recycle time to allow for easier retaliation. Pinpoint alphas need to be kept in check more so in this game due to those factors and a small CoF on alpha strikes would be one of the simpler solutions.

Pinpoint alphas exacerbate piloting error too much imo, which is the biggest problem I have with them. That or we could non-LOS radar so I can tell whether Im about to stare down a Dire Wolf and lose half my mech, that would be nice too.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 04 October 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kjudoon, on 04 October 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

Thus proving the point that pinpoint damage is an unfair advantage if given perfect convergiance, and why Clan ballistics now have DPS delivery.

I'd even go to allow total convergence if the shooter is standing perfectly still for a set period of time (3-5 seconds like getting LRM locks on ECM protected mechs) otherwise, it's a bouncing, jangling cluster. You want to snipe, no more snap shooting.

Hey, if we got cockpit shake, we may as well look at this too.

Snap shooting is NOT Sniping it's freaking awesome Luck! I take snap shots all the time. I have only decapped one Mech in 3 years of doing so. That seems to be working as intended to me.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 October 2014 - 10:38 AM.

[1453 R]

Mcgral18, on 04 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Fire everything, hit the same pixel, twist, wait for heat levels to alpha again, FIRE EVERYTHING, hit the same pixel, twist again.
So goddamned easy.

As opposed to "FIRE EVERYTHING!", then don't bother twisting while you wait for your heat to fall, then FIRE EVERYTHING(!) again?

It's hilarious that you people think randomizing hit locations on every shot you throw will somehow encourage people to throw less fire instead of more.

"You can be accurate with one medium laser, but if you fire TWO medium lasers instead? Well hell son, that's just not kosher! Your targeting computer just ain't up to the burden of getting two lasers in the same arm to hit the same spot! Those lasers, why, they're going to be hitting anywhere in a fifty-miliradiancone because BattleTech is known for being anachronistic!"

Okay, cool. You've now removed groups of less than six or seven medium lasers from contention, and also made SRM splatboats utterly, crushingly dominant because they've never cared about your meaningless accuracy penalties anyways. if you can't be accurate with reasonable weapons groups, and thus your choice is to be accurate with puny little singleton lasers or be inaccurate with the biggest alpha strike you can bring to bear and just pray the dice like you better than the other guy, which of those do you think players will go for?

You want this game to be about nothing but mindless point-blank facehugging in order to bypass all those severe, crippling accuracy penalties on firing enough weapons to matter?

[Joseph Mallan]

WM Quicksilver, on 04 October 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

In MW4, the massive alpha strikes were more acceptable because losing a section did not entail losing any others meaning side torso destruction did not destroy the arm nor did you die if you had an IS XL, and they also had a huge recycle time to allow for easier retaliation. Pinpoint alphas need to be kept in check more so in this game due to those factors and a small CoF on alpha strikes would be one of the simpler solutions.

Good god I am so happy I don't remember this!

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 04 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

As opposed to "FIRE EVERYTHING!", then don't bother twisting while you wait for your heat to fall, then FIRE EVERYTHING(!) again?

It's hilarious that you people think randomizing hit locations on every shot you throw will somehow encourage people to throw less fire instead of more.

"You can be accurate with one medium laser, but if you fire TWO medium lasers instead? Well hell son, that's just not kosher! Your targeting computer just ain't up to the burden of getting two lasers in the same arm to hit the same spot! Those lasers, why, they're going to be hitting anywhere in a fifty-miliradiancone because BattleTech is known for being anachronistic!"

Okay, cool. You've now removed groups of less than six or seven medium lasers from contention, and also made SRM splatboats utterly, crushingly dominant because they've never cared about your meaningless accuracy penalties anyways. if you can't be accurate with reasonable weapons groups, and thus your choice is to be accurate with puny little singleton lasers or be inaccurate with the biggest alpha strike you can bring to bear and just pray the dice like you better than the other guy, which of those do you think players will go for?

You want this game to be about nothing but mindless point-blank facehugging in order to bypass all those severe, crippling accuracy penalties on firing enough weapons to matter?

Please, try reading for once.

Where the **** have I stated a large CoF? I'm a fan of simply making them parallel aimpoints if you exceed whatever allowance of pinpoint damage.

Fire everything, don't hit a single pixel, stagger fire, and your SKILL will dictate if you hit the same pixel, or hitbox. Not a broken game mechanic.

Of course, some people don't want skill.

[Joseph Mallan]

1453 R, on 04 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

As opposed to "FIRE EVERYTHING!", then don't bother twisting while you wait for your heat to fall, then FIRE EVERYTHING(!) again?

It's hilarious that you people think randomizing hit locations on every shot you throw will somehow encourage people to throw less fire instead of more.

"You can be accurate with one medium laser, but if you fire TWO medium lasers instead? Well hell son, that's just not kosher! Your targeting computer just ain't up to the burden of getting two lasers in the same arm to hit the same spot! Those lasers, why, they're going to be hitting anywhere in a fifty-miliradiancone because BattleTech is known for being anachronistic!"

Okay, cool. You've now removed groups of less than six or seven medium lasers from contention, and also made SRM splatboats utterly, crushingly dominant because they've never cared about your meaningless accuracy penalties anyways. if you can't be accurate with reasonable weapons groups, and thus your choice is to be accurate with puny little singleton lasers or be inaccurate with the biggest alpha strike you can bring to bear and just pray the dice like you better than the other guy, which of those do you think players will go for?

You want this game to be about nothing but mindless point-blank facehugging in order to bypass all those severe, crippling accuracy penalties on firing enough weapons to matter?

It will not cause me to fire less, It will spread out my Alpha damage in a more believable manner though.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

1453 R, on 04 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

"You can be accurate with one medium laser, but if you fire TWO medium lasers instead? Well hell son, that's just not kosher! Your targeting computer just ain't up to the burden of getting two lasers in the same arm to hit the same spot! Those lasers, why, they're going to be hitting anywhere in a fifty-miliradiancone because BattleTech is known for being anachronistic!"

Hyperbole much?

This would be more accurate:
"You can be accurate with one medium laser, but if you fire TWO medium lasers instead? Well hell son, that's just not kosher! Your targeting computer just ain't up to the burden of getting two lasers in the same arm to hit the same spot! Those lasers, why, one is going to hit where you aim it while the other hits up to 2 degrees from the other!"

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 04 October 2014 - 10:38 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

WM Quicksilver, on 04 October 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

Hyperbole much?

This would be more accurate:
"You can be accurate with one medium laser, but if you fire TWO medium lasers instead? Well hell son, that's just not kosher! Your targeting computer just ain't up to the burden of getting two lasers in the same arm to hit the same spot! Those lasers, why, one is going to hit where you aim it while the other hits up to 2 degrees from the other!"

Actually Lasers ARE meant to be the Pin Point Weapon so 1,2 or 20 they should be hitting in the tightest CoF we have!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 October 2014 - 10:41 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 October 2014 - 10:41 AM, said:

Actually Lasers ARE meant to be the Pin Point Weapon so 1,2 or 20 they should be hitting in the tightest CoF we have!

Which is not a pixel!

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 04 October 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

Which is not a pixel!

What ever 5" to 12" diameter would look like. Maybe 2'?

[1453 R]

Mcgral18, on 04 October 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Please, try reading for once.

Where the **** have I stated a large CoF? I'm a fan of simply making them parallel aimpoints if you exceed whatever allowance of pinpoint damage.

Fire everything, don't hit a single pixel, stagger fire, and your SKILL will dictate if you hit the same pixel, or hitbox. Not a broken game mechanic.

Of course, some people don't want skill.

And the allowance of pinpoint damage is...any two weapons fired simultaneously, for any reason, at any time?

Get it through your head, McGral! You're smarter than this! You know damn well what'll happen if you make it impossible to hit anything outside of 400m because of wildly fluctuating, impossible to stabilize cones of fire! You won't get slow-paced, measured fights where people take carefully measured shots with single weapons to avoid incurring ridiculous divergence penalties, you'll get ALL the SplatDogs rushing your entire face because inaccurately bombasting your enemies with hundred-damage shotgun alphas in point-blank range will STILL beat the pants off of trying to poke the other guy down an accurate five damage at a time! To say nothing of how this whole blasted notion removes any meaning or necessity for defensive piloting or maneuvering! Who cares if the enemy can see you plain as day while you run in a straight line across a plain five hundred meters from them? They couldn't hit you properly from that distance with anything but singleton lasers anyways, and even that would be a dicey proposition.

"Skill" shouldn't mean sitting in your cockpit swearing up a storm while you try and try and try and FAIL to get damage onto that guy's cherry-red ST because the game keeps rolling bad dice for you. If you take the time to aim properly, you should be rewarded by HITTING THE ENEMY. Not watching your fire continually sail all around the guy because stormtroopers were responsible for building your targeting system!

[Joseph Mallan]

1453 R, on 04 October 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

And the allowance of pinpoint damage is...any two weapons fired simultaneously, for any reason, at any time?

Get it through your head, McGral! You're smarter than this! You know damn well what'll happen if you make it impossible to hit anything outside of 400m because of wildly fluctuating, impossible to stabilize cones of fire! You won't get slow-paced, measured fights where people take carefully measured shots with single weapons to avoid incurring ridiculous divergence penalties, you'll get ALL the SplatDogs rushing your entire face because inaccurately bombasting your enemies with hundred-damage shotgun alphas in point-blank range will STILL beat the pants off of trying to poke the other guy down an accurate five damage at a time! To say nothing of how this whole blasted notion removes any meaning or necessity for defensive piloting or maneuvering! Who cares if the enemy can see you plain as day while you run in a straight line across a plain five hundred meters from them? They couldn't hit you properly from that distance with anything but singleton lasers anyways, and even that would be a dicey proposition.

"Skill" shouldn't mean sitting in your cockpit swearing up a storm while you try and try and try and FAIL to get damage onto that guy's cherry-red ST because the game keeps rolling bad dice for you. If you take the time to aim properly, you should be rewarded by HITTING THE ENEMY. Not watching your fire continually sail all around the guy because stormtroopers were responsible for building your targeting system!

Blame that on, You can't kill Mia Cockpit like that! U CHEET U HAX! Real skill was removed a while ago I'm afraid.

[Mcgral18]

1453 R, on 04 October 2014 - 10:47 AM, said:

And the allowance of pinpoint damage is...any two weapons fired simultaneously, for any reason, at any time?

Get it through your head, McGral! You're smarter than this! You know damn well what'll happen if you make it impossible to hit anything outside of 400m because of wildly fluctuating, impossible to stabilize cones of fire! You won't get slow-paced, measured fights where people take carefully measured shots with single weapons to avoid incurring ridiculous divergence penalties, you'll get ALL the SplatDogs rushing your entire face because inaccurately bombasting your enemies with hundred-damage shotgun alphas in point-blank range will STILL beat the pants off of trying to poke the other guy down an accurate five damage at a time! To say nothing of how this whole blasted notion removes any meaning or necessity for defensive piloting or maneuvering! Who cares if the enemy can see you plain as day while you run in a straight line across a plain five hundred meters from them? They couldn't hit you properly from that distance with anything but singleton lasers anyways, and even that would be a dicey proposition.

"Skill" shouldn't mean sitting in your cockpit swearing up a storm while you try and try and try and FAIL to get damage onto that guy's cherry-red ST because the game keeps rolling bad dice for you. If you take the time to aim properly, you should be rewarded by HITTING THE ENEMY. Not watching your fire continually sail all around the guy because stormtroopers were responsible for building your targeting system!

Hey, guess what the distance between a RT and a LT is? About a meter or two? Guess where they'll hit on the other mech? About a meter or two apart. Both still hitting, different components. Some mechs do this better. HGN 732 has 3 E slots one on top another, which means they will barely be affected, maybe hit a leg on a Med on top of a Torso.


That's better than all hitting the same pixel. Or, if you want to fire 2 and 2 ERLLs, for example, both will hit the same pixel.

I'm not too sure about tolerances, though.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

My question is what will be nerfed next if this goes through.Nerfs pretty much already ruined the gauss + ppc combo,if you get hit by both of those projectiles at 500 + meters,you are in a very wrong place doing very wrong things.

1 year from now well be shooting giant robots with small lasers,streaks and lrms since nothing else hits anymore.

Yes the 60-pinpoint dire whales are evil and all,but you just got to live with it,they are hardly invulnerable.A mediocre Jenner pilot can easily destroy a metawhale if he/she can use cover.
An i usually pilot Quickdraws,you know the one that has 6 medium lasers?