348 replies to this topic

[Alek Ituin]

Or, instead of convoluted and game-breaking mechanics like forced chain-fire and the even stupider WoT style CoF...

30 Heat cap per Mech, with true doubles and heat penalties. You fire 2 PPC's at once, you're riding the red line and suffering some major heat penalties. You chain fire 2 PPC's with enough true doubles, you can stay moderately cool, and even be capable of chain firing up to 4 PPC's if you're packing enough of them true doubles. Pinpoint isn't an issue if you can't pinpoint all of your weapons.


This solution forces pilots to chain-fire high heat (and thus high damage) weapons, still allows alphas for smaller and cooler (thus lower damage) weapons, allows multiple weapons to fire simultaneously, and yet removes the threat of 80 damage PPFLD alpha strikes.

Simple, easy, and you can finally get rid of Ghost Heat.

[Duke Nedo]

That's not far from what we have really, the problem is combinations of PPC's and low-heat-high-damage front loaded weapons like Gauss and IS-ACs. The heat system we have already deals with PPCs....

[Alek Ituin]

Duke Nedo, on 05 October 2014 - 02:36 AM, said:

That's not far from what we have really, the problem is combinations of PPC's and low-heat-high-damage front loaded weapons like Gauss and IS-ACs. The heat system we have already deals with PPCs....

Ah, but adding heat to Gauss would remove their position as the perfect counterpart to that. Capacitors get REALLY hot, and the amount of energy required to propel a 10kg round at supersonic velocities every few seconds is actually quite high. Energy flow creates heat, and such high energy flow would create a LOT of heat. Say... 6 heat per firing just to start?

As for IS AC's, make 'em burst fire like the Clans. In fact, if they added different manufacturers which all had weapons with different quirks (positive and negative), you could get a lot of firing modes and variety. So a Chemjet 185 fires two 10 damage shells in a slower burst, whereas another fires 10x 2 damage rounds in rapid succession, etc. etc. Same goes for every weapon system, they all need manufacturer types providing positive and negative quirks.

[Kjudoon]

Quote

I want a Komodo. And a Goliath SIROCCO, BECAUSE I AM GENERAL VEERS AND I SAY "MAXIMUM FIREPOWER".

Well your quote sure explains your position and why I'm not very inclined to take any input on balance from you too seriously.

[T1mberwolf]

Do it the Battletech way. FORCE CHAIN FIRE!
And if someone alphas, then he shuts down immediatly. Problem solved!

[Alek Ituin]

Kjudoon, on 05 October 2014 - 02:58 AM, said:

Well your quote sure explains your position and why I'm not very inclined to take any input on balance from you too seriously.

Mmmmhmmm.

I see, so my sig, made as a joke, based around the Sirocco looking like an AT-AT, and including a quote from Star Wars by a general commanding an AT-AT, now invalidates all of my ideas on balance.


How exactly does that work? It's almost as if you don't have an argument against my position... As if all you can do is make personal attacks do try and discredit me rather than my argument... Interesting.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 05 October 2014 - 03:04 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Alek Ituin, on 05 October 2014 - 02:47 AM, said:

Ah, but adding heat to Gauss would remove their position as the perfect counterpart to that. Capacitors get REALLY hot, and the amount of energy required to propel a 10kg round at supersonic velocities every few seconds is actually quite high. Energy flow creates heat, and such high energy flow would create a LOT of heat. Say... 6 heat per firing just to start?

I would personally (and many others) would get genuinely furious if Gauss is made to generate heat. It shouldn't, and it should remain as is.

Honestly, assault mechs are supposed to pack THAT much massive power, and more in fact. Considering we're playing with double armor and double internals. Leave most of the weapons as is right now. Just put the 30 heat cap. Gauss plus PPC is supposed to be devastating, and should remain as such. Especially with Gauss generating 1 heat. (It should generate zero actually, since the charge build up and dissipation happens in such a short period of time, that it never really holds 1 heat over 10 seconds)

[That Dawg]

Cone of shame I'm familiar with, but cone of fire??

[Alek Ituin]

IraqiWalker, on 05 October 2014 - 03:06 AM, said:

I would personally (and many others) would get genuinely furious if Gauss is made to generate heat. It shouldn't, and it should remain as is.

Honestly, assault mechs are supposed to pack THAT much massive power, and more in fact. Considering we're playing with double armor and double internals. Leave most of the weapons as is right now. Just put the 30 heat cap. Gauss plus PPC is supposed to be devastating, and should remain as such. Especially with Gauss generating 1 heat. (It should generate zero actually, since the charge build up and dissipation happens in such a short period of time, that it never really holds 1 heat over 10 seconds)

Except that Gauss weapons do and should generate heat.

Assault Mechs can and should carry lots of heat sinks for their overwhelming firepower.


See where I'm coming from here? 35 point PPFLD alpha that generates 21 heat would dissuade all but the most determined of players, especially with heat penalties. If you want to do it, you're going to pay out the arse with the additional heat sinks needed, but it would be possible. Otherwise, stick to a colder build that runs more efficiently. Either way, TTK goes up and PPFLD meta goes wayyyyyy down.

[Kjudoon]

Alek Ituin, on 05 October 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

Mmmmhmmm.

I see, so my sig, made as a joke, based around the Sirocco looking like an AT-AT, and including a quote from Star Wars by a general commanding an AT-AT, now invalidates all of my ideas on balance.


How exactly does that work? It's almost as if you don't have an argument against my position... As if all you can do is make personal attacks do try and discredit me rather than my argument... Interesting.

I have no idea if your sig is a joke or not. It seems quite the coincidence that someone arguing against balancing out the issue of alpha insta kills thanks to magic convergence would bear such a signature and want more DF boating mechs. I'm not enough of a Warsie to know that came from Star Wars and not some MW novel either. And if that was considered a personal attack and not just an curious (as in hmmmmm....) observation, you really need to toughen up that skin. Internet forums is not a gentle place.

[Alek Ituin]

Kjudoon, on 05 October 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

I have no idea if your sig is a joke or not. It seems quite the coincidence that someone arguing against balancing out the issue of alpha insta kills thanks to magic convergence would bear such a signature and want more DF boating mechs. I'm not enough of a Warsie to know that came from Star Wars and not some MW novel either. And if that was considered a personal attack and not just an curious (as in hmmmmm....) observation, you really need to toughen up that skin. Internet forums is not a gentle place.

Ad Hominem is Ad Hominem, regardless of my feelings on it. Personally I think you just looked like an idiot, but I'm calling it what it's called. What I just said was also technically an Ad Hominem, see how that works? Also, a quick Google search for "General Veers" would have solved all your issues. Perhaps I should put a "THIS IS A JOKE" tag in there for the Google and humor impaired?

Either way, my point remains. Pin point convergence isn't a problem. Being capable of firing all of your weapons at once with pin point convergence, is a problem.

[Kjudoon]

Alek Ituin, on 05 October 2014 - 03:16 AM, said:

Ad Hominem is Ad Hominem, regardless of my feelings on it. Personally I think you just looked like an idiot, but I'm calling it what it's called. What I just said was also technically an Ad Hominem, see how that works? Also, a quick Google search for "General Veers" would have solved all your issues. Perhaps I should put a "THIS IS A JOKE" tag in there for the Google and humor impaired?

Either way, my point remains. Pin point convergence isn't a problem. Being capable of firing all of your weapons at once with pin point convergence, is a problem.

Opinions and orifices I guess.

Although I'm not humor impared, text does not lend itself to subtlety or humor without emoji. Too many people claim "just kidding" or actually believe in the humorous things they say which turns what was once a joke into something creepy or not so funny. I had no way of knowing.

Lastly, I agree with your last point. All weapons converging on a single point at nearly the same time is a problem.

Edited by Kjudoon, 05 October 2014 - 03:25 AM.

[jarien13]

So, I'm not really understanding how my mention of a real life 30mm auto-cannon with an accuracy of 5mil (mil = milli-radian) seems to have been re-interpreted as insistence that MW:O weapons should wildly veer off of reticule aim and generate a 50mil error...

You know, 5mil 80% means 80 percent of the rounds fired from that weapon system will land within a 4m diameter (2m radius) at 400m. That means 4 in 5 shots will land within 2m of your original point of aim. Not bad for a cannon, moving at speed, attacking a point target. Last I noticed, mechs appear to be at least 2-4 meters wide. If you feel like that is unacceptable, wrong, un-video-game-manly, or otherwise inadequate to be applied to this pseudo-simulation game because it "randomizes" your aiming "skill", well you can go stand out on a live fire range and see how comfortable you are with 30mm rounds hitting or passing within 2m of you vs. all hitting you in the face.

If my AC was burst fire and put 4-5 rounds downrange with every mouse-click, er "trigger-pull", I would have statistically increased my chances of hitting and damaging something running through my field of fire over firing only one large shot downrange. Sure, 20 points in one shot is great, but when it misses, I'd much rather have had a 5 round burst that had one or two shots impact for 4 or 8 damage rather than no damage at all and a completely wasted shot. As far as hitting assaults ("barn door" targets), if you have trouble placing 5/5 of those burst shots on target on a slow mover, then you need to rethink your attack vectors rather than claim one large front loaded pinpoint shot is automatically "better." And if you miss 5 of 5 round burst shots, on anything, you were going to miss with one round shots as well.

Auto-cannons are not personal small arms, so if you own small arms (this is for the "but i can put 10 .45 shots inside a quarter at 20 feet / I can put 30 rounds from my AR-15 into a 4 inch circle at 300m so my mech should be able to as well" crowd), that ain't the same thing a mech is shooting. I only previously used that analogy in the manner one would explain to someone the size of an atom by comparing it to the size of a baseball diamond for the electron shell with a pin head at second base for the nucleus. Due to things known as "recoil" and "operating tolerances" and other various "ballistic physics", vehicle sized and larger weapons, ie mech sized, do not have groupings the same size as a handgun at 10m. They could have similar mil errors, which, yes, translates to larger possible circle of impact the farther out the round travels. At up to a 4 km distance, an M1 Abrams targeting-computer mated smooth-bore gun does not put its rounds into a 1 foot circle, it puts them onto a tactical sized vehicle sized zone of a few meters radius. Larger, longer range unguided weapons have statistically larger radius of impact.

Also, because I find them interesting to watch, find some videos of actual aircraft or ground vehicles firing on test ranges or in combat. Come back and tell me how "perfectly steady" their aim really looks and how their weapons converge, visually or on a heads-up targeting screen. And for whomever said the M1 Abrams has no recoil... watch a video of one firing and try to tell me the whole damn tank doesn't rock. That's recoil my friend. Plus, yeah, they can target and fire on the move, but even for them it's an increase in accuracy to fire from static positions.


I also never said that 1 laser is perfect aim yet somehow 2 lasers should have wildly massive divergence, or any weapon system for that matter. If you have similar weapons, mounted in similar locations (left arm and right arm are 'technically' not similar; compare both hand layouts and observe your shoulders' ranges of motion), then they should share the same target reticule, with that reticule indicating the possible (not automatically "un-aimed" from your sights, not wildly completely random, and not dice-rolled) divergence to your shots, and yes, lasers should have the least divergence.

In any case, all I was originally doing was giving the thread some food for thought about known and calculable weapons characteristics and phenomenons that exist in the real world. Unfortunately, here in video game land it is derided as "ppl aim OP, QQ, plz nrf"

Edited by jarien13, 05 October 2014 - 06:12 AM.

[KuroNyra]

Some people just love there precious godlike aim... It's... No wonder why I lost faith in humanity each day.


"Recoil inexistent on the M1 Abrams", maybe when your on acid...

[cSand]

did you photoshop a flying tank on that racetrack?

Couldn't we just make the 1pv retiicle act like the 3pv?

Edited by cSand, 05 October 2014 - 08:39 AM.

[stjobe]

KuroNyra, on 05 October 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

"Recoil inexistent on the M1 Abrams", maybe when your on acid...

I don't know how a picture of a Russian T-80 catching air while going full-speed over a jump fortifies your argument?

Of course the M256 cannon of the M1A2 has recoil, but what does your picture have to do with that?

Edited by stjobe, 05 October 2014 - 09:00 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

What pinpoint damage problem? I'm struggling to understand why it is needed or how it makes the game better? TTK... Really suffers if you make yourself the most tantalizing target for half their team..

All of you saying MWO's shooting system takes no skill? I would say its on par with most other shooters... But you can do a simple test. Take a Victor with an XL engine (they almost always have them), run through 10 or so matches with it. You will be able to tell how good the enemy team is based on how much your STs are hurting. Are you getting random hits across your whole Mech or are they focusing one of your sides? If someone in front of you plugs your arm with a alpha, they actually missed.

There is so much more to this game than "hit" and "miss", think some of you need to remember that. I'm not saying this game requires an immense amountof of skill, but I'm not sure what game you are comparing it too..

Point and click adventures... Lol maybe LRM boating would fall into this category but frankly just the fact that you have to move around makes it not point and click. By this logic every first person shooter is point and click.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 05 October 2014 - 09:05 AM.

[KuroNyra]

stjobe, on 05 October 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

I don't know how a picture of a Russian T-80 catching air while going full-speed over a jump fortifies your argument?

Of course the M256 cannon of the M1A2 has recoil, but what does your picture have to do with that?

Just a picture I liked. ^^


But at the moment, it's a bit like that in game. You can jump, walk on rocky ground with out being affected on your aim and place your shoot without problem.

Gas Guzzler, on 05 October 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

What pinpoint damage problem? I'm struggling to understand why it is needed or how it makes the game better? TTK... Really suffers if you make yourself the most tantalizing target for half their team..

All of you saying MWO's shooting system takes no skill? I would say its on par with most other shooters... But you can do a simple test. Take a Victor with an XL engine (they almost always have them), run through 10 or so matches with it. You will be able to tell how good the enemy team is based on how much your STs are hurting. Are you getting random hits across your whole Mech or are they focusing one of your sides? If someone in front of you plugs your arm with a alpha, they actually missed.

There is so much more to this game than "hit" and "miss", think some of you need to remember that. I'm not saying this game requires an immense amountof of skill, but I'm not sure what game you are comparing it too..

Point and click adventures... Lol maybe LRM boating would fall into this category but frankly just the fact that you have to move around makes it not point and click. By this logic every first person shooter is point and click.

The problem is that you can without problem put all your weapon on the exact same spot instantly, no matter the speed you are running/walking, no matter the ground your wlking on (who can be pretty jumpy.).

No matter what, your weapon will have that godlike precision and even for battletech, it's unrealistic has possible.
Mechwarrior weren't able to hold a perfect accuracy like it's the case at the moment.


let's say an awesome is running at 130km/h is on a rocky ground and take some hit.
No matter what, he will be able to place all his shoot exactly where he want without being bothered. No matter he's being shoot by heavy fire, no matter his weapon are on different location. He is not affected by all the factor who logicly affect the precision of his gun.

Edited by KuroNyra, 05 October 2014 - 09:11 AM.

[BourbonFaucet]

KuroNyra, on 05 October 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

Some people just love there precious godlike aim... It's... No wonder why I lost faith in humanity each day.

The issue is there's always that crowd that wants zero randomness in their game whatsoever. This is because they can't stand the idea of someone they deem less skilled than themselves winning through sheer luck alone. Somehow that's just against the laws of reality, blasphemy.

For their own sakes I hope they never play poker. You can win a lot of hands through skill, but the luck letting you grab a victory against a formerly superior hand is where a lot of the fun comes from.

[KraftySOT]

To be fair, shooters like BF4, and Arma, have bullet drop, cof, velocity loss, and even wind (in Arma)

So.

No...every shooter isnt point and click.