348 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

And frankly everyone who says "most players think this" Russ being the worst offender...has no idea what theyre talking about. Less than 10% of the player base is active on forums, and only a small percentage of those, favor any one particular thing or the other.

For the vast majority of players, changing the aiming system to something more like other modern shooters...would go almost completely unnoticed. The number of posts by people making their first post saying something to the effect of "Hey what happened to aiming?" would be pretty small.

The same number of people who noticed their aiming change in Heroes and Generals....like 12.

Ultimately, who cares about anything we say? Can any of us quantify what PGI will gain or lose by making a change to the aiming system? Nope.

Doesnt make it suck any less...or mean you shouldnt voice your opinion. But the chances of it changing to something more like TT, or that prevents the huge alphas converging on a pixel, are small.

[cSand]

KuroNyra, on 05 October 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Just a picture I liked. ^^


But at the moment, it's a bit like that in game. You can jump, walk on rocky ground with out being affected on your aim and place your shoot without problem.







The problem is that you can without problem put all your weapon on the exact same spot instantly, no matter the speed you are running/walking, no matter the ground your wlking on (who can be pretty jumpy.).

No matter what, your weapon will have that godlike precision and even for battletech, it's unrealistic has possible.
Mechwarrior weren't able to hold a perfect accuracy like it's the case at the moment.


let's say an awesome is running at 130km/h is on a rocky ground and take some hit.
No matter what, he will be able to place all his shoot exactly where he want without being bothered. No matter he's being shoot by heavy fire, no matter his weapon are on different location. He is not affected by all the factor who logicly affect the precision of his gun.

I'd love to see your hit % stats, since it's apparently so easy to ai perfectly in this game So you must be pulling 100% hit ratio right?

[Gas Guzzler]

KraftySOT, on 05 October 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

To be fair, shooters like BF4, and Arma, have bullet drop, cof, velocity loss, and even wind (in Arma)

So.

No...every shooter isnt point and click.

MWO has bullet drop.

In BF4 you can easily get 1 or 2 shotted so CoF there is different. So you have named 2 titles in a sea of others.. I don't think that disproves the fact that this game has at least as much shooting skill as the average shooter.

To be clear, I wouldn't even be opposed to wind or velocity loss in this game, as long as you can account for it.

[KuroNyra]

cSand, on 05 October 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

I'd love to see your hit % stats, since it's apparently so easy to ai perfectly in this game So you must be pulling 100% hit ratio right?

You should learn to read. I never said the system allowed you to have a 100% hit/ratio. But you were always sur no matter the circumstance to hit where the dot is, even if there should be a ****.
The problem is that your weapon are not affected by all the movement, and it's your job to put the dot on the target and that's it.
The problem is not that it make people to precise, but that all your weapon are with no problem whatsoever going to hit where the dot is even if there should be logicly shifted.

Your are twisting your torso, and a shot hit your left arm, it should **** a bit before replace himself. At the moment it isn't the case. The only small thing is that your torso reticle is just a little in advance in comparaison of your arm reticle. And that's pretty much it.
It wouldn't make a difference if you are hit when using your laser by an Arrow IV, your screen will shake, but will your weapon actually move because of the huge impact? F*ck no.

[cSand]

Try the 3PV, and observe how the reticle acts. Would that not work in 1PV?

There is a fine line between realism and making the game frustrating as hell for people, especially casual/new players. So when you're gettting pounded by LRMs and ACs, and your arms are flailing wildly and you can't get a single shot on target because of "realism, bro"... try to think of how much fun that is for most players.

Edited by cSand, 05 October 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[Roadbeer]

Three simple words.

Reinstate.Weapon. Convergence.

Movement = longer delay in convergence.

/solved.

[cSand]

Roadbeer, on 05 October 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Three simple words.

Reinstate.Weapon. Convergence.

Movement = longer delay in convergence.

/solved.

Yep.

The reason, Kuro, why so many people nay-say your idea and the bazillion other convoluted trainwrecks, is caue there's no need for it.

This guy said it They just need to do it without messing with hit detection

[Alek Ituin]

Roadbeer, on 05 October 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Three simple words.

Reinstate.Weapon. Convergence.

Movement = longer delay in convergence.

/solved.

For weapon convergence, instead of a random CoF displayed as a stupid circle, each weapon has its own reticle. Weapons would fire exactly where their reticle is pointing, but the reticle may not be pointing where you want it to. No randomness, no messy RNG bulls**t, increased skill requirements.

Add in a global 30 heat cap (with true doubles) as well and you're good to go.


Just my thoughts on how convergence could be implemented.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 05 October 2014 - 09:45 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Gas Guzzler, on 05 October 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

MWO has bullet drop.

In BF4 you can easily get 1 or 2 shotted so CoF there is different. So you have named 2 titles in a sea of others.. I don't think that disproves the fact that this game has at least as much shooting skill as the average shooter.

To be clear, I wouldn't even be opposed to wind or velocity loss in this game, as long as you can account for it.

Actually you cant...the minimum for all weapons other than DMR is 4 hits, even in Hardcore mode.

So thats not true.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Roadbeer, on 05 October 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Three simple words.

Reinstate.Weapon. Convergence.

Movement = longer delay in convergence.

/solved.

That didn't really stop Gaussapults from playing peek-a-boo well, delayed convergence was simply a bane to arm mounted weapons but not really torso mounted ones. Nor would it stop the laser vomit builds that are currently one of the more dominate builds.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 05 October 2014 - 09:49 AM.

[Blood Rose]

Just bring back the old Convergence.

We are utilising weapons that weigh in at multiple tons mounted on limbs or gearings that weigh about the same. They would not be able to realistically move from aiming at 10 metres to aiming at 500 on 0.1 seconds as they can do now, it would take time to re-adjust convergence distance. It would also give us a use for that now pointless convergence skill.

Besides, it is also lore and makes sense, would reduce the vast pinpoint alpha some builds can do etc....

BTW OP, the 6PPC Stalker was a joke build. Now the Quad PPC Stalker.... That was another thing altogether.

[KraftySOT]

Roadbeer, on 05 October 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Three simple words.

Reinstate.Weapon. Convergence.

Movement = longer delay in convergence.

/solved.

Roadbeer for president.

KraftySOT, on 05 October 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

Actually you cant...the minimum for all weapons other than DMR is 4 hits, even in Hardcore mode.

So thats not true.

And the list keeps going...Heroes and Generals, Red Orchestra, ...the only one that doesnt is COD and thats what we here want to distance ourselves from.

Were the COD of mech games, but with a hardcore customization meta. We need the game to be as hardcore as the lore, and as hardcore as the backend. We have all these weapons, options, modules, etc...we need to be able to use them. When it all boils down to "you suck" or "you have PPFLD" thats bad.

This one problem effects every facate of the game, from heat, to role warfare, ttk, how matches play out, the grind...everything.

[KuroNyra]

cSand, on 05 October 2014 - 09:44 AM, said:

Yep.

The reason, Kuro, why so many people nay-say your idea and the bazillion other convoluted trainwrecks, is caue there's no need for it.

This guy said it They just need to do it without messing with hit detection

The reason, Csand, why so many people nay-say my idea is because they think I want a shotgun-like dispersion system if you move a bit too much.

Edited by KuroNyra, 05 October 2014 - 09:50 AM.

[KraftySOT]

And theres no problem with boating, unless the boating is popping mechs in a hit or two.


The only problem with the hexastalker and direstar...is that all the weapons hit you in the same pixel. If 2 or 3 missed and the others washed across you...no one would give a damn. Theyd take the damage and wander over to your shut down mech and pwn you.

Its the central problem thats been in almost all MW games.

[Roadbeer]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 October 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

That didn't really stop Gaussapults from playing peek-a-boo well, delayed convergence was simply a bane to arm mounted weapons but not really torso mounted ones. Nor would it stop the laser vomit builds that are currently one of the more dominate builds.

There are edge cases to everything that can be used as a counter-argument for almost anything. Like the Hex-PPC-Stalker as the bogeyman for needing ghost heat.

Neither were ultimately effective builds except in niche scenarios. Plus both are referenced in the vacuum of when they were the "thing", game has evolved way past that. In fact, IIRC, Gausskitty was a thing before ECM and when LRMs were a bigger joke than they ever were since.

[Gas Guzzler]

Whatever I have played BF4, TTK is a small fraction of TTK in MWO and that is a fact.

It doesn't boil down to PPFLD anymore, have you played the game recently? Laser boat TBRs are extremely powerful, arguably more so then the ErPPC Gauss combo.

Ugh this arguement is a waste of energy. Just please don't ruin the game. Thanks.

[Blood Rose]

Bring back Convergence. Kill many birds with one stone.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?

Oh, yeah, wait. We forgot the point and click CoD kiddies PGI has to cater too....

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Roadbeer, on 05 October 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

There are edge cases to everything that can be used as a counter-argument for almost anything. Like the Hex-PPC-Stalker as the bogeyman for needing ghost heat.

Neither were ultimately effective builds except in niche scenarios. Plus both are referenced in the vacuum of when they were the "thing", game has evolved way past that. In fact, IIRC, Gausskitty was a thing before ECM and when LRMs were a bigger joke than they ever were since.

Gauss kitty was still popular after ECM was introduced, it wasn't until the rise of the jumptard that the Gausskitty phased out of use. Still, delayed convergence really didnt solve anything, it still allowed pinpoint alphas and it gave a huge advantage like with jumptards at the time because of the fact you generally had your reticule aimed at terrain near the target or the target itself meaning you weapons had plenty of time to sync up to hit one section. Like I said, it also wouldn't stop some of the most dangerous of Dire Wolves like the Laser Vomit build. So if it can't really fix the pinpoint problems like the Dire Wolf, how is it any different from Ghost Heat?

[Macksheen]

If you really wanted to tackle convergence, and I'm not sure it's required, why not do what other systems have done?

Well, other games handle this by the targeting reticle growing and shrinking in size to represent convergence and shake, and you simply take the fact that the bajillions of environmental factors of pitch, speed, wind, day of week, time of month mean that there's a wee bit of difference between each shot. Pilot skills should improve that (convergence) and in theory, standing still for a period of time should allow for near-perfect convergence.

Secondarily, you could simply impart a very slight % change in beam duration or projectile speed on each shot. It may not seem like much, but with moving targets and moving shooters, having one AC 1% faster and the other 1% slower can cause the damage to hit different locations.

Again, not sure it's really something needing fixing just yet, but if you are going to address it there are ways without going nutso crazy.

[KraftySOT]

Yeah I play quite a bit...and I disagree.

This isnt much different than wasting people with the M60 in Metro. I have my ac20+pulse laser Banshee...if youre in range, you last exactly as long as you would in BF4. A direwolf is basically a guy with a Ballistic Shield...it takes another second or two to kill.

When youre putting 107 damage into a single pixel every 3 seconds...

And im a firm believer in 'hack it till they fix it'...so ill keep piloting my cheap build that pops everything but 3 mechs in the game, in one shot.

My only concern is that it isnt Alpine, so I can lulz my way to 6 kills.

The worst thing is letting your doritos shoot up some of the enemies CT a tad, then swoop in with the kill steal. Oh hey Cataphract, you got a laser to the CT already? Heres 63 damage. I love seeing people disconnect before their mechs death animation is even finished...thats when you know you pissed someone off.

It sucks. Change it. If I wanted to play quake 3 instagib, id be playing quake 3.

Macksheen, on 05 October 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

If you really wanted to tackle convergence, and I'm not sure it's required, why not do what other systems have done?

Well, other games handle this by the targeting reticle growing and shrinking in size to represent convergence and shake, and you simply take the fact that the bajillions of environmental factors of pitch, speed, wind, day of week, time of month mean that there's a wee bit of difference between each shot. Pilot skills should improve that (convergence) and in theory, standing still for a period of time should allow for near-perfect convergence.

Secondarily, you could simply impart a very slight % change in beam duration or projectile speed on each shot. It may not seem like much, but with moving targets and moving shooters, having one AC 1% faster and the other 1% slower can cause the damage to hit different locations.

Again, not sure it's really something needing fixing just yet, but if you are going to address it there are ways without going nutso crazy.

Exactly, and no one is suggesting something crazy.

But if its not pin point, they stick their fingers in their ears and their heads in the sand.

Edited by KraftySOT, 05 October 2014 - 10:08 AM.