348 replies to this topic

[KuroNyra]

1453 R, on 04 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

As opposed to "FIRE EVERYTHING!", then don't bother twisting while you wait for your heat to fall, then FIRE EVERYTHING(!) again?

It's hilarious that you people think randomizing hit locations on every shot you throw will somehow encourage people to throw less fire instead of more.

"You can be accurate with one medium laser, but if you fire TWO medium lasers instead? Well hell son, that's just not kosher! Your targeting computer just ain't up to the burden of getting two lasers in the same arm to hit the same spot! Those lasers, why, they're going to be hitting anywhere in a fifty-miliradiancone because BattleTech is known for being anachronistic!"

Okay, cool. You've now removed groups of less than six or seven medium lasers from contention, and also made SRM splatboats utterly, crushingly dominant because they've never cared about your meaningless accuracy penalties anyways. if you can't be accurate with reasonable weapons groups, and thus your choice is to be accurate with puny little singleton lasers or be inaccurate with the biggest alpha strike you can bring to bear and just pray the dice like you better than the other guy, which of those do you think players will go for?

You want this game to be about nothing but mindless point-blank facehugging in order to bypass all those severe, crippling accuracy penalties on firing enough weapons to matter?

You really are not reading. But let's take YOUR example since you like that kind of situation.

1453 R, on 04 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

"You can be accurate with one medium laser, but if you fire TWO medium lasers instead? Well hell son, that's just not kosher! Your targeting computer just ain't up to the burden of getting two lasers in the same arm to hit the same spot! Those lasers, why, they're going to be hitting anywhere in a fifty-miliradiancone because BattleTech is known for being anachronistic!

More like your laser on the same arm will both hit the same place they were targeting, but the other arm will hit a slighty different location. Same for the weapon on your torso.


Lot's of people telling bullshit, saying bullshit, thinking bullshit.
Special mention to Aresye who clearly prooved he was just here to create even more flame like he usually does.


It's not specially the number of weapon fired that would influence, especially NOT the laser who are recoilless!

But if you fire all your weapon who create recoil, yes. Your mech should need to recalibrate on the target dot.
Same if you take heavy fire like AC/10/20, LBX, SRM or huge amount of LRM.

When you are moving, there also should be a little shift. Not a huge one like some morons here try to convince. But a little one who avoid the perfect pin-point accuracy at 81km/h on rocking ground.




Ho, and for the facehugging, I the closer you are from a target, the harder it is for your weapon to get all on the center-torso at the exact same spot. (I did not say harder to hit the CT, but harder to hit the exact same spot). It would required your arm to actually turn on the direction of the CT.


Meaning, it should hit at different location close to where you are aiming, but not all weapon on the exact pixel.

[Hoax415]

Cookiemonter669, on 04 October 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

My question is what will be nerfed next if this goes through.Nerfs pretty much already ruined the gauss + ppc combo,if you get hit by both of those projectiles at 500 + meters,you are in a very wrong place doing very wrong things.

1 year from now well be shooting giant robots with small lasers,streaks and lrms since nothing else hits anymore.

Yes the 60-pinpoint dire whales are evil and all,but you just got to live with it,they are hardly invulnerable.A mediocre Jenner pilot can easily destroy a metawhale if he/she can use cover.
An i usually pilot Quickdraws,you know the one that has 6 medium lasers?

Don't you mean what nerf is next if we don't fix the underlying problem that is pinpoint alpha?

All of the major nerfs have been to address various pinpoint alpha builds. That will continue to be the case because firing all FLD weapons at once to get one shot that does X damage to one exact location will always be the strongest play you can make in MWO while pinpoint alphas exist.

So what will be nerfed next because of pinpoint alpha? Hard to say, so much has already been nerfed. Clan Gauss maybe? Ballistics across the board? AC40?

[stjobe]

An "alpha" in TT still meant separate to-hit rolls for every weapon, and separate hit location rolls for all weapons that hit.

An alpha in MWO is one click for all weapons, and all weapons hit the same location.

Spot the difference? Care to guess which one of those two break the armour system? Hint: the armour system was designed and balanced for the other one.

The reason PGI has battled alpha damage with systems like Ghost Heat and Gauss charge, not to mention the numerous PPC nerfs and buffs and re-nerfs is that MWO alphas break the armour system; it's just not meant to handle those damage levels.

Anyway, there's several other ways than CoF to combat the pin-point alpha problem; one of my favourites is forced chain-fire: You simply remove the ability to fire all your weapons at once, enforcing a 0.1-0-3 global cooldown between weapon activations. That would allow accuracy to remain pin-point, while damage would spread out naturally just as it does with lasers.

Edited by stjobe, 04 October 2014 - 12:50 PM.

[Karl Split]

Im not sure I get a lot of the responses against cone of fire to be honest.

I play battlefield a lot and if your running and firing from the hip the reticule and potential spread of the bullets is greater than if you stand still and aim but as long as the entirety of the cone is over the target you will hit. The notion that you will randomly miss is wrong...

Personally I think it would add realism to the game and force people to make a choice between moving and lining up that perfect shot.

Edited by Karl Split, 04 October 2014 - 01:17 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

stjobe, on 04 October 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

An "alpha" in TT still meant separate to-hit rolls for every weapon, and separate hit location rolls for all weapons that hit.

Only in tech 1 with no targeting computers. With a targeting computer installed, your weapons slaved to it could be alpha'd into any location you specifically want.

Other than stock mech events, there are almost no tech 1 mechs running around.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 04 October 2014 - 01:18 PM.

[Kaijin]

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 04:00 PM, said:

I'll give 'em that - PGI sure does make pretty investor trailers.

[Aresye]

Mcgral18, on 04 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

I'm gonna call bullshit on that one.

I'm saying 12 goddamn weapons shouldn't hit the same pixel if you fire them all at once.


Of course, I guess some people want CoD 3050, rather than a BattleTech game. Neither do they want any challenge in a game.


Fire everything, hit the same pixel, twist, wait for heat levels to alpha again, FIRE EVERYTHING, hit the same pixel, twist again.
So goddamned easy.

Calm down dude, I was merely making a joke, although I would be lying if I said there wasn't any degree of truth to it.

I understand the problem with pinpoint convergence, but there's loads of problems with non-pinpoint systems too. For example, take mixed convergence. Do you really think that will stop competitive players finding ways to take advantage of that system? There's a whole slew of new mech and hardpoint possibilities that will be discovered with a new convergence system, and competitive players will find the ones that still allow for the hardest hitting alpha with the highest % being pinpoint as possible.

On the other hand, new players will have an even more complicated learning curve, leading up to the possibility that good players may actually end up stomping new players HARDER than before.

I don't want CoD, which is why I'm AGAINST suggestions for CoF. The weapon systems in MW have too slow a firing rate that any form of CoF type system suggested is just a terrible, frustrating idea.

Also, technically every official MW game to date has had perfect convergence, so implementing a CoF like system would actually make the game more like CoD than what we currently have.

[KuroNyra]

Aresye, on 04 October 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

Calm down dude, I was merely making a joke, although I would be lying if I said there wasn't any degree of truth to it.

I understand the problem with pinpoint convergence, but there's loads of problems with non-pinpoint systems too. For example, take mixed convergence. Do you really think that will stop competitive players finding ways to take advantage of that system? There's a whole slew of new mech and hardpoint possibilities that will be discovered with a new convergence system, and competitive players will find the ones that still allow for the hardest hitting alpha with the highest % being pinpoint as possible.

On the other hand, new players will have an even more complicated learning curve, leading up to the possibility that good players may actually end up stomping new players HARDER than before.

I don't want CoD, which is why I'm AGAINST suggestions for CoF. The weapon systems in MW have too slow a firing rate that any form of CoF type system suggested is just a terrible, frustrating idea.

Also, technically every official MW game to date has had perfect convergence, so implementing a CoF like system would actually make the game more like CoD than what we currently have.

The difference was in the other game that they were usable with Joystick, not juste the mouse and the keyboard in my memories.

Aim was much more difficult and required some practice. It wasn't that easy to place your dot on your target. Let's not talk about the difference between the weapon in these game and in MW:O



In MW:O it's much more easy to aim, and unless you have bad reflex and are really playing dumb, hitting the CT of your ennemy is a piece of cake.

Edited by KuroNyra, 04 October 2014 - 01:38 PM.

[Mcgral18]

IraqiWalker, on 04 October 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Only in tech 1 with no targeting computers. With a targeting computer installed, your weapons slaved to it could be alpha'd into any location you specifically want.

Other than stock mech events, there are almost no tech 1 mechs running around.

With a +3/4 to hit, and all weapons still aren't guaranteed to hit, let alone the same location.

[wolf74]

In the many of us have Tried to get some other Possable way of doing thing as an option

2 case and points
(OCT 2011) http://mwomercs.com/...on-convergence/
(JUN2013) http://mwomercs.com/...48-convergence/


(A Repeat of my thought from some of the other Threads)
Manual Controlled Convergence:
Con’s:

• Harder for New Player (unless they have played a GOOD WW2 Tank sim than it will be a cake walk for them).

Pro’s:

• This will give Pin Point damage for those who wait for the right range for the shot or can make the Corrections on the fly.
  
• High odds of spreading the damage around the targets.
  
• Gives Classic Battletech Targeting Computer* a reason to be in the game
  
• Give Pulse Lasers a better reason to be used over Normal Lasers

Things I would give the players if Manual Convergence is put in:

• +-5m auto Correction. (AKA if you target is within 5m of you Convergence point it will hit pin point).
  
• CBT Target Computers* upgrades the +-5m auto-correction to +-15m.
  
• Pulse Laser (Does not stack with Targeting Computers) get a +-25m auto-Correction
  
• LRM can be dumb fired over a Hill by using the Covergence point for the Drop location of the LRM
  
• LRM Given a Streak Missile Bone lock-on for every 5th missile fired (Flights of 5 would share a Loction lockon, than a New location is assigned for the next group of 5)
  
• Add a Column to the score page:
  
  • If using the current targeting system listed the player as a Rookie Pilot
    
  • If using the Manual Controlled Targeting listed the player as a Mechwarrior
• Add a boost to the C-Bills for Damage done if the player is playing using the Manual Controlled system (Can only be changed in the MechLab and not in a Match)
  
• Also a Meta-score boost could also be given for being in manual convergence.

Advance Use of Weapon Groups:
First off thank you all for the good feedback on my idea (In other threads that is). I was thinking of a simple one point convergence system at first. But feedback given to me made me think that as a player you could setup Fire group with pre-set ranges. The default keys would be for all Convergence points to move together. But have it where you could (did not say have too) setup the weapon groups for different ranges could also work. In other words as the players get better they could start doing something like the below if they took the time

AKA
Group 1 (Your best weapons the Main group you use & change the ranges all the time on)
Group 2 You have the weapons you want to fire at about 400m setup here
Group 3 You have setup for 270m Range
Group 4 You have setup when you can see the white of the enemy pilots eyes (aka Point blank hugging range)
Group 5&6 You setup for sniping at 800m but you only use it every now an than so you put it on two group so you can key ether key


*The I.S. Targeting Computer are normally not in game until 3058 but for game play reasons & New Player support I think most CBT player will over look the Date to help the Game along.

[IraqiWalker]

Mcgral18, on 04 October 2014 - 01:41 PM, said:

With a +3/4 to hit, and all weapons still aren't guaranteed to hit, let alone the same location.

I can live with that, because in those instances we were simulating weapons fire over a period of 10 seconds, and so missing one here or there was fine, plus with good enough pilots those hits were virtually guaranteed. Since we're doing this in real time, a lot of things will be a bit different.

[stjobe]

IraqiWalker, on 04 October 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Only in tech 1 with no targeting computers. With a targeting computer installed, your weapons slaved to it could be alpha'd into any location you specifically want.

A TC does not let you roll to-hit just once for multiple weapons (a MWO alpha). AFAIK, that is not possible in any way in TT.

The TC does allow aimed shots against non-immobile targets (except against the head, those shots are explicitly disallowed with a TC). Aimed shots were notoriously fickle:

Using a TC they are made with a +3 to hit (same as if you'd been jumping), and a second roll is made to see if the shot hits the desired location: On a 6, 7, or 8 it does, otherwise your roll as normal on the hit location table.

In other words: Aimed shots with a TC are as hard as shooting after jumping, and only has a 44.4% chance of actually hitting where you aim (or rather, slightly higher; you might get lucky on the hit location roll, after all).

So take that world-class 0/0 MechWarrior, using his TC to fire a weapon at a target. Stationary, in short range, against a stationary target with no intervening terrain and no heat effects present, it's a 3+ to hit; pretty easy shot, about a 97% chance to hit the target and after that a 44% chance to hit the location aimed at.

The regular 4/5 Mechwarrior on the other hand only has a 58% chance to hit the target, and then the same 44% chance to hit the desired location.

Do you see it?

Do you see the hidden fact in those rules?

MechWarrior skill has zero effect on whether the shot hits the desired location or not, only if the target is hit at all - even with a TC.

Edited by stjobe, 04 October 2014 - 04:31 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

stjobe, on 04 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

A TC does not let you roll to-hit just once for multiple weapons (a MWO alpha). AFAIK, that is not possible in any way in TT.

Because even alpha strikes in TT were done over the course of 10 second turns. Instead of instantly.

stjobe, on 04 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

In other words: Aimed shots with a TC are as hard as shooting after jumping, and only has a 44.4% chance of actually hitting where you aim.

That's an infinite increase over 0%, which is what we had with tech 1.

stjobe, on 04 October 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

So take that world-class 0/0 MechWarrior, using his TC to fire a weapon at a target. Stationary, in short range, against a stationary target with no intervening terrain and no heat effects present, it's a 3+ to hit; pretty easy shot, about a 97% chance to hit the target and after that a 44% chance to hit the location aimed at.

The regular 4/5 Mechwarrior on the other hand only has a 58% chance to hit the target, and then the same 44% chance to hit the desired location.

Do you see it?

Do you see the hidden fact in those rules?

MechWarrior skill has zero effect on whether the shot hits the desired location or not, only if the target is hit at all - even with a TC.

Again, maybe not very high percentages, but they are infinitely higher than 0% which is what we had with tech 1 in TT.

[ice trey]

I am in the "Expanding Reticule" camp, but I also think it could be fixed by only allowing mechs to fire one weapon at a time.

No need to worry about 80 point alphas when there's no way to alpha.

[Xanquil]

It would be interesting to get a premade game put together at some point with everyone agreeing to only use chain fire, (because single fire doesn't have a fixed .5sec delay) Just to see how different the game would be.

[IraqiWalker]

ice trey, on 04 October 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

I am in the "Expanding Reticule" camp, but I also think it could be fixed by only allowing mechs to fire one weapon at a time.

No need to worry about 80 point alphas when there's no way to alpha.

Interesting as that may be. I will have to be completely against the removal of alpha strike.

[Kjudoon]

ice trey, on 04 October 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

I am in the "Expanding Reticule" camp, but I also think it could be fixed by only allowing mechs to fire one weapon at a time.

No need to worry about 80 point alphas when there's no way to alpha.

The "World of Tanks" firing solution would be a simple, elegant solution to pinpoint and alpha strike damage that is currently one of the bigger if not biggest gameplay problems PGI is facing. Your weapons will hit inside the circle. The longer you remain immobile, the smaller it gets over time as based on your gunner's skill. MWO can use the targetting computer OR start adding in skills for pilots and bye bye pinpoint pixel alphas. It'll still be like catching a fist full of powerful missiles or LB10x but that a far cry better than what we got.
Would also instantly increase the value of LRMs, much to the screaming dismay of the LRMQQbrigade.

[KuroNyra]

ice trey, on 04 October 2014 - 06:34 PM, said:

I am in the "Expanding Reticule" camp, but I also think it could be fixed by only allowing mechs to fire one weapon at a time.

No need to worry about 80 point alphas when there's no way to alpha.

The problem is that Alpha are also part of the lore.
Mech were able to fire all there weapon if they wanted.

Problem is the heat was also able to make a BBQ effect on the Mechwarrior inside the Mech.
Removing the Alpha isn't a solution.

Kjudoon, on 05 October 2014 - 12:10 AM, said:

The "World of Tanks" firing solution would be a simple, elegant solution to pinpoint and alpha strike damage that is currently one of the bigger if not biggest gameplay problems PGI is facing. Your weapons will hit inside the circle. The longer you remain immobile, the smaller it gets over time as based on your gunner's skill. MWO can use the targetting computer OR start adding in skills for pilots and bye bye pinpoint pixel alphas. It'll still be like catching a fist full of powerful missiles or LB10x but that a far cry better than what we got.
Would also instantly increase the value of LRMs, much to the screaming dismay of the LRMQQbrigade.

Yeaaahh but no. I do not want a CoF making you able to miss a Dire Wolf at 10 meter. If there is a system like this. THAT would destroy all the skill required to play and would be even worst than the Instant-convergence problem.

Edited by KuroNyra, 05 October 2014 - 01:40 AM.

[stjobe]

KuroNyra, on 05 October 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

The problem is that Alpha are also part of the lore.

Not BattleTech lore, no. There's no concept of an "alpha strike" in BattleTech, and in TT rules there's no mechanic for them. There's no way of determining when in the 10-second TT turn a weapon gets fired.

Edit: Even with the Targeting Interlock Circuits from the (much maligned and rightly so) 'Mech Duel Rules from Solaris VII, there's no way of determining when in the 2.5-second turn the weapons are fired.

KuroNyra, on 05 October 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

Mech were able to fire all there weapon if they wanted.

Sure, but it there's precious little to say they could do it by one trigger pull, and plenty of circumstantial evidence they couldn't.

E.g.
* Every weapon had to make a separate to-hit roll (which gives credence to a forced-chainfire solution).
* An AWS-8Q (just to take an example) firing its 3 PPCs simultaneously would shut down due to 30 heat being generated at once without any chance for the heat sinks to dissipate it. Chain-firing them gives the heat sinks a chance to dissipate all of the heat in time for the 10-second turn to be over.

KuroNyra, on 05 October 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

Removing the Alpha isn't a solution.

Removing the alpha definitely is a solution. Perhaps not one that's palatable to you, but it is a solution.

KuroNyra, on 05 October 2014 - 01:39 AM, said:

Yeaaahh but no. I do not want a CoF making you able to miss a Dire Wolf at 10 meter. If there is a system like this. THAT would destroy all the skill required to play and would be even worst than the Instant-convergence problem.

Nobody wants that, it's just that some people do not want to change the current overly-simplified and simplistic system since any change would mean they would have to use more skill, so they make up weird and fantastical strawmen like "RNG means you can't aim" and "so you mean I can't hit what I aim at?". Nobody but themselves suggest anything of the sort.

Edited by stjobe, 05 October 2014 - 02:05 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

I really don't think you can achieve what we want without using several mechanisms. There is no magic bullet for this one... I mean:

1. (Ghost)heat is good for removing energy alphas (read ppc) but useless for ballistics (read ac20). The current mechanism is unintuitive and inconsequential. This needs to be made uniform, i.e. scrap all groups and instead add up the heat from any weapon fired within the 0.5 secs and apply a "stacking penalty" if you are overloading.

2. Delayed convergence is good for spreading damage on legs and mechs with fast transversal speed and all damage from impatient/bad players, but alone one would only learn to hold the shots a bit longer and then deal the full alpha. I fear that this will further slow down the already slow pace of the game and make leg shots near impossible because they will move in and out of convergence all the time. Same goes for the random cone of fire... just stand still and wait a bit and then alpha. Imo it would just reduce the pace of the game and favor defending. Logic as that may be, its boring in computer games. That's why I always found counter-strike more fun than ghost recon for example. Being able to move and hit things favor offensive game play. Forcing unlocked arms and separating the left from the right arm is a resource-cheap version that would achieve almost the same thing, but will not have the drawback of not being able to hit legs (since convergence in that sense will still be instant) so that is the one I am hoping for.

3. Recoil won't stop alphas, but will help spreading damage from combinations of ballistics/ppcs and lasers as well as stopping macros and pinpoint UAC double-taps. I can't see anything bad about recoil as long as its fully relaxed after 0.1-0.3 secs, i.e. not affecting a second AC2 shot.

So, my point is that I think we need all three. Uniform heat to stop the most blatant boating, but remove the current groups, then add some recoil and some convergence system. Why must we argue, why not all three? The only thing I am strongly against is the random spread thing, that's realistic but not fun.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 05 October 2014 - 02:03 AM.