348 replies to this topic

[Pht]

Nightmare1, on 05 October 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

Where there isn't a problem, there need be no discussion. Simply learn to play, and you won't take too much damage to individual components. Learn how to shield and maneuver. It's simple, really.

There is a problem.

The "Too Lazy, Didn't Read, Don't care what you said" version is that the nerfs you've stated that you don't like that PGI has made are *because of* pinpoint instant convergence. Future nerfs will come down the pike because of it.

There is a direct linked chain from pgi's decision to not put the 'mech weapons handling into the game to the balance nerfs, ghost heat, gauss and ppc nerfs, etc.

It's all there for you to see and read.

[Kjudoon]

3rdworld, on 05 October 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

I imagine most people that find convergence a problem are in the same boat. Mcgral not withstanding.

The 'running something smaller than a max armor assault, boat? I'm not getting your point.

[Nightmare1]

Pht, on 05 October 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

The "Too Lazy, Didn't Read, Don't care what you said" version is that...

So...you admit that you aren't even paying attention to what I'm saying and don't even care; you're just disagreeing to disagree.

I suggest you watch this, it may be helpful to you:



...And with that, I finish with you. Such an attitude makes you unworthy of my attention.

[KuroNyra]

Nightmare1, on 05 October 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

So...you admit that you aren't even paying attention to what I'm saying and don't even care; you're just disagreeing to disagree.

I suggest you watch this, it may be helpful to you:



...And with that, I finish with you. Such an attitude makes you unworthy of my attention.

You are sooooo helping with the discussion.
Instead you could have actually read.
But noooo.



I know the weapon have in the lore a "lock" system allowing them to fire where they want. BUT THEY DO NOT WORK INSTANTLY AND CAN BE SHIFTED BECAUSE OF THE BATTLE!

For the millions of time this battlemech weren't able to have a pin-point accuracy of death while under heavy fite and moving at hight speed!


It would be like trying to have a sniper trying to it a scorpion 400 meter away with a single bullet while riding a drunken bear running on a mountain at 40km/h.
Guess what, the sniper would have lot's of chance of actually hitting in MW:O. Much less in Reality, OR in the books.

[Lily from animove]

sry thats technically poop, lights get unhitable because convergence would go crazy between being on a mech and off a mech. And then latency strkes in making it horrible for every EU gamer. And when there is someone crossing you or those amazing environmental hitboxes strike your crosshair? convergence gone crazy.

[KuroNyra]

Lily from animove, on 06 October 2014 - 03:37 AM, said:

sry thats technically poop, lights get unhitable because convergence would go crazy between being on a mech and off a mech. And then latency strkes in making it horrible for every EU gamer. And when there is someone crossing you or those amazing environmental hitboxes strike your crosshair? convergence gone crazy.

Strange, I'm in the EU in France, and don't have trouble fighting my opponent. Except when I'm downloading stuff.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Kjudoon, on 05 October 2014 - 12:41 PM, said:

I never realized the problem of insta-convergance till the introduction of the Dire Whale and suddenly I was getting 'one shotted' 5 times a week in anything smaller than an assault. I hated the Boomjagers before, but this has been even worse since there are now so many of them doing it.

yeah boomjagers was bad enough, but now dire alpha is even higher and can kill you instantly.

In current state public games are nearly unplayable for me. And dont talk about LTP, as I am not bad, and most of people here are experienced enough. Twisting storys are embarrassing. Nothing will help you, if 60 is hitting your door in PPFLD style. MWO mechanics are so poor in so many aspects.
- PPFLD
- no heat scale
- no movement penalty
- poor critical system
- crappy ECM that has zero sense and connection to BT
Just to call few

Anyway I still think Bills targeting comp idea was best around.

[Livewyr]

Good effort- I wish there were a way to truly solve it.. but PGI had found the best way back in CBT (transient convergence, the whole reason we had the Pinpoint efficiency in the skill tree)

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

A solution I propose is to create a system like of Cone of Fire with a reajustement system.

You are off to a rough start here. Cone is a four letter word. (Bad word)

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

For example, let’s take a Timber Wolf with 4 medium laser on the Arms and 2 pulse laser on both side torso.


Let’s say that the TBW is facing an Awesome and fire at him on the move. What could happen? Both arm are moving but are not both synced and have some shift between them. Let’s say I was targeting the CT of the AWS during the move, the time needed to the arm to make the move make them shifting and one arm pass throught my visor a bit before readjusting it, the other did the same and they after a few second completely readjust. But, they are not both exactly on the the visor and they shift at every move.


A bit different for the Torso-Mounted weapon, they haven’t that kind of problem, but are not synced too and will hit at two different locations.

They had something like this (only it did not take nearly that long, and it was for ONE location)

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Same example, I attack the AWS. My pulse laser both hit the center torso but not at the exact same spot like it’s currently the case.

How does that work for an awesome that is 200 meters away, versus an awesome that is 900 meters away?

Hitting the 200m awesome's Torso in different places would require quite a variation/deviation... that same deviation at 900 meters would mean you shot several meters away from the awesome with at least one weapon.

How would your weapons know what distance to account for? (Especially since it will change rapidly.)

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

Also, when you are firing with basilistic, you also shake a bit (not too much to avoid the LRM syndrome, but the bigger the weapon is, the bigger the effect can feel) and your weapon will be starting to spread more the fire. Not Shotgun style, but it won’t hit the exact same location every time.
No big change for the Missile, they actually work pretty well I think.

I do like the recoil idea. (it has been mentioned before, but it needs some love.)

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

That system could avoid the pinpoint damage problem, affecting both IS and Clan Mech.
I’m looking forward to discuss that with you guy’s.

Recoil- good.
CoF- very very bad.

[Luminarium]

Converge or pin point accuracy is THE single most important balancing issue MWO has always had.

Every single clunky new mechanic introduced is due to pin point accuracy.

• 6 PPC hitting one spot - Pin Point Problem. It was impossible in TT, dice roll alone wouldn't let you hit the same spot.

• More than 2 Gauss not shooting? - Pin Point Problem.

• Ghost heat - You guessed it, introduced to counter the Pin Point Accuracy.

• JJ shake / nerf / poptarting - again, all of it due to Pin Point Accuracy.

• LRMs hitting center torso all at once - again, no dice roll, no spread.

Saying that it's not an issue is simply silly...There haven't been a bigger issue to date.

Cone of fire / convergence when shooting more than a few of the same weapon would have been a much better fix than the clunky ghost heat / gauss charge up fiasco.

This game is hemorrhaging it's player base by introducing horrible fixes to a problem that could have been fixed 3 years ago.

World of Tanks / war thunder have 100x the player base with a simple cone of fire mechanic. Yes aiming still counts but you don't 1 shot hit your opponent at 1000m like we did with 6ppl stalkers.

Clan assaults are dominating IS Assaults because they can equip higher alpha weapons that hit 1 spot. IS lights dominate
Clan lights because the smaller weapons they can equip do more alpha to one spot.

The clan UAC doing spread damage and longer burn times was a partial fix to the problem as it gives you time to twist and spread damage over a larger area.

CoF / convergence / roll of dice are all very good ways to fix all the issues we're having but people are stubborn and not willing to accept that we have an issue.

I think it's safe to say that the core founders of this game, the TT crowd is ok with a roll of dice mechanic. The FPS crowd seems to have an issue with it without understanding that it would eliminate the need for ghost heat, JJ shake, JJ nerfs, limited gauss fire ETC.

What's worse is that the devs are not willing to consider it either, which basically killed this game before it ever really had a chance to be successful. It's been 3 years of mediocre performance, devs using all their resources to introduce mechanics to combat issues we should not have had in the first place.

It doesn't matter how many new mechs they introduce or if clan warfare ever makes it to release. They're forced to waste an insane amount of resources balancing weapon systems. Constantly. It will continue to get worse with every new mech introduced. More clunky boring mechanics, or even more confusing ghost heat that new players will simply not get.

Until they admit and recognize that this is the single most important balancing issue this game has - RIP MWO.
I don't think they'll ever will, they chose to remain ignorant to the issue and even if they were to recognize it right now, it might be too little too late.

[3rdworld]

Kjudoon, on 05 October 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

The 'running something smaller than a max armor assault, boat? I'm not getting your point.

It doesn't surprise me that people that are not shielding their mechs correctly, get bent, then come to the forums complaining that people shouldn't be that accurate.

Edited by 3rdworld, 06 October 2014 - 05:50 AM.

[KuroNyra]

3rdworld, on 06 October 2014 - 05:50 AM, said:

It doesn't surprise me that people that are not shielding their mechs correctly, get bent, then come to the forums complaining that people shouldn't be that accurate.

What difference does it make to torso twisting? Instead of having your torso hit by a 40 damage Alpha, you have your arm blowed up. Congratulation, GGCLOSE
You will still have your arm and probably side torso destroyed by that Mech holding 4 AC/10 and the PPC.
And weapon touching the exact same pixel.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Split, on 04 October 2014 - 01:15 PM, said:

Im not sure I get a lot of the responses against cone of fire to be honest.

I play battlefield a lot and if your running and firing from the hip the reticule and potential spread of the bullets is greater than if you stand still and aim but as long as the entirety of the cone is over the target you will hit. The notion that you will randomly miss is wrong...

Personally I think it would add realism to the game and force people to make a choice between moving and lining up that perfect shot.

I don't like this Idea. BUT I "don't like it" a lot less than I don't like all DpS all teh time. I can live with holding the alpha button longer to throw all my damage (front loaded and DpS). I don't like it, but I also don't hate it. A good trade off I think!

[3rdworld]

KuroNyra, on 06 October 2014 - 05:53 AM, said:

What difference does it make to torso twisting? Instead of having your torso hit by a 40 damage Alpha, you have your arm blowed up. Congratulation, GGCLOSE
You will still have your arm and probably side torso destroyed by that Mech holding 4 AC/10 and the PPC.
And weapon touching the exact same pixel.

I see you fall into that category.

The only mech that can carry 4 ac/10s would be 4 uac 10s. And if you have issues with people putting all the rounds in the same location, you most likely have player skill issues. There is are very little combinations that do not have speed difference that will spread the damage (assuming you aren't simply standing still) or natural spread like lasers missiles lbx clan uacs. The highest pinpoint alpha you can get and it be similarly timed would be around 30. If you are taking more than that to a single location from an alpha, you are doing something wrong.

And arms are meant to get blown off. You are going to take damage in the match. I'm sorry that you want to hit people and not get hit back, that isn't have player vs player games work.

Edited by 3rdworld, 06 October 2014 - 06:27 AM.

[DEN_Ninja]

I wish that there was a adjustable convergence setting that can be adjusted prior to launch a game like in War Thunder. This set convergence value is a set range for torso mounted weapons.

Arms having free range of motion regardless with current convergence. It makes arms valuable for mounting weapons that can be aimed without rangefinding. It makes a difference between torso mounted and Arm weapons.

Arm and Torso HUD elements get their own individual range indicators. Torso weapons are desynced with arms force a person to actually aim both their mech and arms to make skill shots. It introduces 'inaccuracy' but only for the mechanic that can be directly accounted for with player skill.

It doesn't stop people from boating PPC's and AC's but introduces more skill to use rather than introducing too much randomness.

Edited by Tichorius Davion, 06 October 2014 - 06:08 AM.

[3rdworld]

Tichorius Davion, on 06 October 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

I wish that there was a adjustable convergence setting that can be adjusted prior to launch a game like in War Thunder. This set convergence value is a set range for torso mounted weapons.

Arms having free range of motion regardless with current convergence. It makes arms valuable for mounting weapons that can be aimed without rangefinding. It makes a difference between torso mounted and Arm weapons.

Arm and Torso HUD elements get their own individual range indicators. Torso weapons are desynced with arms force a person to actually aim both their mech and arms to make skill shots. It introduces 'inaccuracy' but only for the mechanic that can be directly accounted for with player skill.

It doesn't stop people from boating PPC's and AC's but introduces more skill to use rather than introducing too much randomness.

Aside from having major issues with mech viability.

[DEN_Ninja]

3rdworld, on 06 October 2014 - 06:25 AM, said:

Aside from having major issues with mech viability.

How so? You didn't bother attaching an actual argument to your statement.

[Almond Brown]

Luminarium, on 06 October 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

Converge or pin point accuracy is THE single most important balancing issue MWO has always had.

stuff

So you would be OK with "penetration" being added to armor and weapons then as well?

That is what keeps the WOT tanks alive versus each other, more than any "adhoc" aiming system.

When your "chance" to score a Hit depends on the "penetration" value assigned to your gun versus the enemies armor rating, then that is no more FUN that what we already have. At least if we hit an enemy it counts.

Bouncing AC rounds in MWO would be an utter joke...

[3rdworld]

Tichorius Davion, on 06 October 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

How so? You didn't bother attaching an actual argument to your statement.

Nerfing mechs that don't have all their hardpoints either in their arms or all in their chest.

Clan. (do I need to explain this one?)

Edited by 3rdworld, 06 October 2014 - 06:46 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Fix to PP alphas?

Lower heat scale to 60, which just like armor, is double the TT game, or 45.... Then, increase DHS to like....oh, idk, 2? lol....and then you wont see so many people quad firing PPCs, cuz the heat and GH and crap would simply be to much(we could also remove GH entirely at this point). It would slow down firing and make games last longer, probably more fun and tactical and less walk around a corner and your mech melts.


But with how heat scale limit is like 80 or 100 or w/e it is, we can endlessly fire pretty much everything with little stopping in the fire. hell, I can let off 4 or 5 volleys of 2 of my lasers at a time on the warhawk and still have heat limit for a 6th by the time by weapons recharge...quickly followed up with a 7th.....its like every mech in this game is and endless stream of fire....whats heat? why is it in the game? It plays very little part in anything....plus the shutdown penalty is what? 2 seconds?

Sure, lowering the heat scale might make ballistics more viable and sought after, but we could also limit thier ammo cap as well....Put the AC10 from 15 back to it's original 10 or maybe 12 rounds.

LRMs, decrease lock time but increase the missile spread and make losing lock alot faster and easier. Plus lower the trajectories of them. Then increase the speed so they dont turn so well, so maybe even if you get locked on you could possibly outstep them or something lol...

But not every change needs tobe a nerf to clan weapons in order ot help limit PPFLD Lolphas.

[Luminarium]

Almond Brown, on 06 October 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

So you would be OK with "penetration" being added to armor and weapons then as well?

That is what keeps the WOT tanks alive versus each other, more than any "adhoc" aiming system.

When your "chance" to score a Hit depends on the "penetration" value assigned to your gun versus the enemies armor rating, then that is no more FUN that what we already have. At least if we hit an enemy it counts.

Bouncing AC rounds in MWO would be an utter joke...

No there is no reason to implement bounce and angle mechanics. That's not the issue, the pint point accuracy is.

MWO has armour values instead of bouncing / angle mechanics.

WoT doesn't have an assigned armour value that depreciates with each hit. It remains constant thus they need another mechanic to counter that. We do have that issue as it's countered by armour values that do diminish with each hit.

Both games have weak spots. In WOT it's ammo racks / various crew positions / engine etc. If they had pin point accuracy that game would have been a mess. Every shot would ammo rack a tank and they would have to come up with some clunky ghost heat / gun size restriction mechanic, making the game progressively less fun and slowly bleeding out their player base.

That's exactly what happened to MWO. Our shots always land exactly where we aim at. We had 6 ppc stalkers, 4 ppc k2s, 3ds pop tarting, 2pp 2 gauss direwolves etc. Every patch get's worse than the previous one. We had to introduce terrible band aid fixes to get around that.The game only shares the name with the TT concept behind it.

Half the changes make no sense. Why does the Gauss rifle explode when hit when it's not charge up? Why does firing 7 medium lasers produce exponentially more heat than 6 Medium lasers? All these changes are becoming clunkier with every balance change to a point where a new player has an easier time getting into Eve spreadsheets online than MWO.