348 replies to this topic

[Lily from animove]

KuroNyra, on 06 October 2014 - 03:51 AM, said:

Strange, I'm in the EU in France, and don't have trouble fighting my opponent. Except when I'm downloading stuff.

If we would have convergence, you would have trouble.

Livewyr, on 06 October 2014 - 04:27 AM, said:

Recoil- good.
CoF- very very bad.

recoil is not working, recoil is the most easy thing people will either macro away or skilled players get used to, and then you stick with the same PP alpha problem. Cone of Fire would solve PP alpha. but pro's don't like that because it takes their aim advantage from the lesser skilled newbies. Why do tiny machine gusn evne have a cone of fire? how can they be that unstable, while a mech can fire a massive sized AC 20 without spreading the bullet into a bt random direction? makes no sense at all.

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 October 2014 - 07:06 AM.

[KuroNyra]

3rdworld, on 06 October 2014 - 05:57 AM, said:

I see you fall into that category.

The only mech that can carry 4 ac/10s would be 4 uac 10s. And if you have issues with people putting all the rounds in the same location, you most likely have player skill issues. There is are very little combinations that do not have speed difference that will spread the damage (assuming you aren't simply standing still) or natural spread like lasers missiles lbx clan uacs. The highest pinpoint alpha you can get and it be similarly timed would be around 30. If you are taking more than that to a single location from an alpha, you are doing something wrong.

And arms are meant to get blown off. You are going to take damage in the match. I'm sorry that you want to hit people and not get hit back, that isn't have player vs player games work.

*facepalm*
Did I say I wanted to be all invincible? No.
Did I say I wanted a game were you didn't have to just point your cursor on the ennemy to hit, but having to compensate for your move, the hits you are tacking, the multiple weapon your are carrying in order to hit your ennemy and place your shoot where you want them? Yes.

Now if you are just here for trolling around -and it's looks like you do- you might as well leave.


Ever heard of Dire Wolf, Awesome and other's?
No matter what you are torso twisting or not, the alpha will hit you. It's not the fact that it hit you that borrow me. But that the fact they are hitting on the EXACT SAME F*CKING PIXEL NO MATTER WHAT. AND THAT THEY ARE NOT AFFECTED BY ALL THE FACTOR WHO LOGICLY AFFECT WEAPONS.


Trying shooting a target at 200 meter with a rifle on each hand. It can be done.
Now try doing hit while running at hight speed on a rocky ground.
Now if you can't see the problem, you might try theses

Edited by KuroNyra, 06 October 2014 - 07:19 AM.

[DEN_Ninja]

3rdworld, on 06 October 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

Nerfing mechs that don't have all their hardpoints either in their arms or all in their chest.

Clan. (do I need to explain this one?)

Oh boo hoo, you lose instant convergence. Sorry that the introduction of skill into the torso mounted weapons that should not be able to gyrate will affect you so heavily.

Disabling instant convergence on torso mounted weapons is not a heavy nerf at all. The only real difference for anyone that can get beyond the desync is that you need to aim at different points along a range. Rather than pointing your reticule at a mech along all ranges and still achieve magical instant convergence.

[RetroActive]

Mcgral18, on 04 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

I'm gonna call bullshit on that one.

I'm saying 12 goddamn weapons shouldn't hit the same pixel if you fire them all at once.


Of course, I guess some people want CoD 3050, rather than a BattleTech game. Neither do they want any challenge in a game.


Fire everything, hit the same pixel, twist, wait for heat levels to alpha again, FIRE EVERYTHING, hit the same pixel, twist again.
So goddamned easy.

Last time I played CoD (2 years ago) it had a CoF. Your "hey look I'm gonna be like the cool kids and make fun of CoD" example seems to NOT support your platform.

My favorite ride (RIP Victor, may the quirk pass bring you back to life) has an AC20, SRMs and medium lasers. If I mashed the FIRE EVERYTHING button when using this guy, then I'd have that spread damage you so strongly desire.

[LordKnightFandragon]

KuroNyra, on 06 October 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

*facepalm*
Did I say I wanted to be all invincible? No.
Did I say I wanted a game were you didn't have to just point your cursor on the ennemy to hit, but having to compensate for your move, the hits you are tacking, the multiple weapon your are carrying in order to hit your ennemy and place your shoot where you want them? Yes.

Now if you are just here for trolling around -and it's looks like you do- you might as well leave.


Ever heard of Dire Wolf, Awesome and other's?
No matter what you are torso twisting or not, the alpha will hit you. It's not the fact that it hit you that borrow me. But that the fact they are hitting on the EXACT SAME F*CKING PIXEL NO MATTER WHAT. AND THAT THEY ARE NOT AFFECTED BY ALL THE FACTOR WHO LOGICLY AFFECT WEAPONS.


Trying shooting a target at 200 meter with a rifle on each hand. It can be done.
Now try doing hit while running at hight speed on a rocky ground.

Lol, now try firing 2 Rifles, an SRM rack in your chest, a trio of pistols strapped to your chest and a large caliber airsoft gun at the same time while runningacross rocky ground and see if there is no recoil and if the guns are all accurate lol. I am with ya on that one lol. even modern day Battletanks, while they can accurately hit targets on the move, they still have recoil in the massive cannons...

[KuroNyra]

LordKnightFandragon, on 06 October 2014 - 07:19 AM, said:

Lol, now try firing 2 Rifles, an SRM rack in your chest, a trio of pistols strapped to your chest and a large caliber airsoft gun at the same time while runningacross rocky ground and see if there is no recoil and if the guns are all accurate lol. I am with ya on that one lol. even modern day Battletanks, while they can accurately hit targets on the move, they still have recoil in the massive cannons...

I'm pretty sur that guy will still fail to see where the problem is.

I'm still young personatly, not even really fired a real gun before. Yet I know how some stuff should work, how is it possible that some "real adult" act so childish and arrogantly?

But I guess it's welcome to the internet here...

Where you can find someone who believe than you can safely stop your bike by collapsing with a car...

[Karl Streiger]

I would like a "semi fixed" approach to cone of fire.

A weapon may use a cone - but after the first shot this cone is fixed - and the shooter has to adjust his aim to hit. NO random after each shot, but maybe some changes after 20,50,89 shots - after that some
adjustment is needed.

Basically your weapon systems aim not perfect for zero. Calibration issues while mounting the gun, aim computer issues, myomer controll problems and else. What ever reason you like - but the effect is the same - your left Gauss Rifle will hit the left hip of the Atlas when you aim for the dead center, while your right may hit the right shoulder. Both shots given at 1100m.

BOAH COF? Not not really - because when you aim for the dead center and fire and fire and fire again you guns - its will be the same - left - left hip - right left shoulder at 1100m.

That means - to hit the dead center your right cannon have to aim for the right hip - and the left cannon for the right shoulder. OK you also can aim for the right side - and both shots will hit the center (chin and pelvis - but still CT) at 1100m.

Every player is forced to adjust his fire - for each weapon at its own - but you can be sure that they will keep that aiming point until the end of the game

(more funny - you get ZERO-ING points when in training grounds, and you keep those values until this weapon is destroyed)

[Almond Brown]

Luminarium, on 06 October 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

No there is no reason to implement bounce and angle mechanics. That's not the issue, the pint point accuracy is.

MWO has armour values instead of bouncing / angle mechanics.

WoT doesn't have an assigned armour value that depreciates with each hit. It remains constant thus they need another mechanic to counter that. We do have that issue as it's countered by armour values that do diminish with each hit.

Both games have weak spots. In WOT it's ammo racks / various crew positions / engine etc. If they had pin point accuracy that game would have been a mess. Every shot would ammo rack a tank and they would have to come up with some clunky ghost heat / gun size restriction mechanic, making the game progressively less fun and slowly bleeding out their player base.

That's exactly what happened to MWO. Our shots always land exactly where we aim at. We had 6 ppc stalkers, 4 ppc k2s, 3ds pop tarting, 2pp 2 gauss direwolves etc. Every patch get's worse than the previous one. We had to introduce terrible band aid fixes to get around that.The game only shares the name with the TT concept behind it.

Half the changes make no sense. Why does the Gauss rifle explode when hit when it's not charge up? Why does firing 7 medium lasers produce exponentially more heat than 6 Medium lasers? All these changes are becoming clunkier with every balance change to a point where a new player has an easier time getting into Eve spreadsheets online than MWO.

Stop living in the past dude. We no longer have 6 PPC Stalkers. No more 4 PPC K2's, no more PopTarting (or very little).

As for the Gauss, it has huge Range its ammo does not explode. Balance = the Gun does. Large Nickel Ferrous balls just don't explode. Simple really.

Why? Why? Why? Same for any game really. Why in TT does a shot, when I am clearly in direct line of sight, using a straight shooting Ballistic weapon BUT Miss from 150m?

[Roadbeer]

So, while enjoying my coffee during my morning constitutional, I whipped up a simple convergence system, that I don't believe would require a lot of work to code.

1. Remove the convergence bonus from the skill tree. This makes no sense, as convergence is mechanical and no amount of skill can make a computer adjusting gimbals move faster.

2. These are example maths so you can see where I'm going with it, obviously these numbers are open to debate (and more than likely will be debated rather than the premise of the post /lesigh)
CT/Head weapons: 0 (It's where you mech is pointing, no convergence modifier)
RT/LT .01 seconds * .01 seconds/100 meters (time it takes adjustments to align with CT weapons)
RA/LA .02 seconds * .01 seconds/100 meters (Fixed arm or "locked arms" adjustments to align with CT weapons)
RA/LA "Unlocked" (Arm movement speed) * .01 seconds/100 meters.

3. Add in speed modifier, say .02 seconds/100 meters over 30 KPH

Just putting it out there.

Oh, and look, you can add in a new Mech Adjustment like ARTEMIS called "Improved Gimbals" that add a modifier to convergence speed and increase the cost/weight/slot of "Improved Gimbals" weapons.

Edited by Roadbeer, 06 October 2014 - 07:59 AM.

[Luminarium]

Almond Brown, on 06 October 2014 - 07:36 AM, said:

Stop living in the past dude. We no longer have 6 PPC Stalkers. No more 4 PPC K2's, no more PopTarting (or very little).

As for the Gauss, it has huge Range its ammo does not explode. Balance = the Gun does. Large Nickel Ferrous balls just don't explode. Simple really.

Why? Why? Why? Same for any game really. Why in TT does a shot, when I am clearly in direct line of sight, using a straight shooting Ballistic weapon BUT Miss from 150m?

We no longer have 6 ppl stalkers, now we have dual guass dual CLPL direwolves. We have 12 CML novas and every patch creates a mutant solution to a problem that has an easy fix. Firing 12 ML at the same isn't an issue. Hitting the same spot with 12 ML at the same time is. Heat will prevent you from spamming 12 ML, it will not prevent an 80 dmg alpha to the exact same spot.

That's why we need a fix to pin point accuracy.

Why Why Why? Because it has ruined ruined ruined a great franchise.

Here is what we have to show for the last 3 years of development:

Clunky / terrible ghost heat mechanics, JJ shake and a fraction of the player base we did at the start - and shrinking. We have a developer that instead of creating new game modes and warfare creates terrible balancing mechanics that get worse with every patch. 3 years of development wasted on balancing mechs instead of content - all of which could have been avoided with a simple roll of the dice mechanic / converge / cone of fire.

As for your 150m Point blank argument:

At 150M cone of fire wouldn't make you miss, at that range you might experience some slight spread to side torsos depending on how many weapons you fired.

Devs could have done a , "the more weapons you fire at the same time the more of a converge issue you have fix., they could have done a slight cone of fire that increases with range / number of weapons fired fix".

At 1000m even with 8 ppc dire wolf you would miss 1-2, hit a both side torsos, a leg and maybe one to the center. You could run a very a 99% heat mech that fires once a minute without making it cheese 1 shot 1 kill build.
It would encourage diversity of loadouts give a hit and run strike roles to light mechs that do decide to boat and wouldn't have to double the armour on every mech in order to make them withstand 60 dmg alpha hits.

They went with ghost heat and it was the single worse idea that could have come up with. Every new weapon they introduce needs to be balanced around dps / alpha / weight / ammo / heat and Ghost heat. By having a cone of fire / roll the dice / convergence mechanic you wouldn't have to worry about huge alpha and ghost heat.

Seriously it is the root of every problem we have with the game. Double armoued because of pin point alpha. Light mechs were never meant to be this small, they were less dense not smaller in TT - but PGI had to make them small and difficult to hit because of this very issue.

Edited by Luminarium, 06 October 2014 - 08:20 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Roadbeer, on 06 October 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

So, while enjoying my coffee during my morning constitutional, I whipped up a simple convergence system, that I don't believe would require a lot of work to code.

1. Remove the convergence bonus from the skill tree. This makes no sense, as convergence is mechanical and no amount of skill can make a computer adjusting gimbals move faster.

2. These are example maths so you can see where I'm going with it, obviously these numbers are open to debate (and more than likely will be debated rather than the premise of the post /lesigh)
CT/Head weapons: 0 (It's where you mech is pointing, no convergence modifier)
RT/LT .01 seconds * .01 seconds/100 meters (time it takes adjustments to align with CT weapons)
RA/LA .02 seconds * .01 seconds/100 meters (Fixed arm or "locked arms" adjustments to align with CT weapons)
RA/LA "Unlocked" (Arm movement speed) * .01 seconds/100 meters.

3. Add in speed modifier, say .02 seconds/100 meters over 30 KPH

Just putting it out there.

Oh, and look, you can add in a new Mech Adjustment like ARTEMIS called "Improved Gimbals" that add a modifier to convergence speed and increase the cost/weight/slot of "Improved Gimbals" weapons.

The time is the issue with that. The whole HSR and server authoritative debacle stops progressive convergence, which I think you're mentioning?

Not sure how going from magical convergence to parallel would go. I don't imagine it would be too harsh on the server, since it's pretty much what we have now, just the the weapons not deathstar-ing.

[Roadbeer]

Mcgral18, on 06 October 2014 - 08:19 AM, said:

The time is the issue with that. The whole HSR and server authoritative debacle stops progressive convergence, which I think you're mentioning?

Not sure how going from magical convergence to parallel would go. I don't imagine it would be too harsh on the server, since it's pretty much what we have now, just the the weapons not deathstar-ing.

I often forget how many different things have been kludged together here just to register a hit.

It would be nice if the Community Manager or someone put together a document explaining the more esoteric principles so a debate could be formed based on facts and not wild speculation. Hitreg, Ghost Heat, Known Issues, etc. Something that was easy to find, current and concise.

I guess looking for reasons to ban people was a more productive use of time.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Luminarium, on 06 October 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

We no longer have 6 ppl stalkers, now we have dual guass dual CLPL direwolves. We have 12 CML novas and every patch creates a mutant solution to a problem that has an easy fix. Firing 12 ML at the same isn't an issue. Hitting the same spot with 12 ML at the same time is. Heat will prevent you from spamming 12 ML, it will not prevent an 80 dmg alpha to the exact same spot.

That's why we need a fix to pin point accuracy.

Why Why Why? Because it has ruined ruined ruined a great franchise.

Here is what we have to show for the last 3 years of development:

Clunky / terrible ghost heat mechanics, JJ shake and a fraction of the player base we did at the start - and shrinking. We have a developer that instead of creating new game modes and warfare creates terrible balancing mechanics that get worse with every patch. 3 years of development wasted on balancing mechs instead of content - all of which could have been avoided with a simple roll of the dice mechanic / converge / cone of fire.

As for your 150m Point blank argument:

At 150M cone of fire wouldn't make you miss, at that range you might experience some slight spread to side torsos depending on how many weapons you fired.

Devs could have done a , "the more weapons you fire at the same time the more of a converge issue you have fix., they could have done a slight cone of fire that increases with range / number of weapons fired fix".

At 1000m even with 8 ppc dire wolf you would miss 1-2, hit a both side torsos, a leg and maybe one to the center. You could run a very a 99% heat mech that fires once a minute without making it cheese 1 shot 1 kill build.
It would encourage diversity of loadouts give a hit and run strike roles to light mechs that do decide to boat and wouldn't have to double the armour on every mech in order to make them withstand 60 dmg alpha hits.

They went with ghost heat and it was the single worse idea that could have come up with. Every new weapon they introduce needs to be balanced around dps / alpha / weight / ammo / heat and Ghost heat. By having a cone of fire / roll the dice / convergence mechanic you wouldn't have to worry about huge alpha and ghost heat.

Seriously it is the root of every problem we have with the game. Double armoued because of pin point alpha. Light mechs were never meant to be this small, they were less dense not smaller in TT - but PGI had to make them small and difficult to hit because of this very issue.

And not set the heat scale so damn high.......and make shutting your mech down a bit more detrimental...as in make it take longer to restart...

[Joseph Mallan]

KuroNyra, on 06 October 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

*facepalm*
Did I say I wanted to be all invincible? No.
Did I say I wanted a game were you didn't have to just point your cursor on the ennemy to hit, but having to compensate for your move, the hits you are tacking, the multiple weapon your are carrying in order to hit your ennemy and place your shoot where you want them? Yes.

Now if you are just here for trolling around -and it's looks like you do- you might as well leave.


Ever heard of Dire Wolf, Awesome and other's?
No matter what you are torso twisting or not, the alpha will hit you. It's not the fact that it hit you that borrow me. But that the fact they are hitting on the EXACT SAME F*CKING PIXEL NO MATTER WHAT. AND THAT THEY ARE NOT AFFECTED BY ALL THE FACTOR WHO LOGICLY AFFECT WEAPONS.


Trying shooting a target at 200 meter with a rifle on each hand. It can be done.
Now try doing hit while running at hight speed on a rocky ground.
Now if you can't see the problem, you might try theses

how big a target? This is important.

[Pht]

Nightmare1, on 05 October 2014 - 08:00 PM, said:

So...you admit that you aren't even paying attention to what I'm saying and don't even care; you're just disagreeing to disagree.

No. I didn't (and don't) admit any such thing. I knew what you said before I ever made my first reply to you in this thread, and I addressed what you said.

You say that there's not a problem with the game, and that it's only people who don't know how ... or who won't attempt ... to spread damage around on their 'mech that are complaining about it as a problem.

I disagreed that instant pinpoint wasn't a problem; I gave good and valid reasons why I disagreed; and I gave you a direct chain of necessary conseqences that led from the choice to go instant convergence/pinpoint to the nerfs you negatively mentioned.

Your answer? Flat out refusal to respond to even a single one those reasons and you use an irrational made up character-attack excuse having nothing to do with what I posted; thus allowing you to continue ignoring the problem.

You don't even bother to post "TL,DR" or anything of the like.

How hard is it to grasp that having over 100 points of damage easily and constantly hitting a single section of a targeted 'mech that can only carry 62 armor + 31 internal structure on it's most heavily armored section ... is going to have conseqences.

PGI did things to "fix" this problem. The way they did so caused other problems. Their fixes to those other problems caused MORE problems. Etc and so on.

Unintended consequences *bite.*

Edited by Pht, 06 October 2014 - 08:52 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

I'm a Alpha Striking maniac and I have a problem with Pin point convergence, so I am on your side Pht, and I am looking for a good fix. DocBach gave a good one and I don't HATE StJob's...

[3rdworld]

KuroNyra, on 06 October 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

*facepalm*
Did I say I wanted to be all invincible? No.
Did I say I wanted a game were you didn't have to just point your cursor on the ennemy to hit, but having to compensate for your move, the hits you are tacking, the multiple weapon your are carrying in order to hit your ennemy and place your shoot where you want them? Yes.

Now if you are just here for trolling around -and it's looks like you do- you might as well leave.


Ever heard of Dire Wolf, Awesome and other's?
No matter what you are torso twisting or not, the alpha will hit you. It's not the fact that it hit you that borrow me. But that the fact they are hitting on the EXACT SAME F*CKING PIXEL NO MATTER WHAT. AND THAT THEY ARE NOT AFFECTED BY ALL THE FACTOR WHO LOGICLY AFFECT WEAPONS.


Trying shooting a target at 200 meter with a rifle on each hand. It can be done.
Now try doing hit while running at hight speed on a rocky ground.
Now if you can't see the problem, you might try theses

No point in replying with you. Your arguments are completely dishonest. Mechs don't hit the same pixel unless you aren't moving. Ballistics have bullet drop and travel time which require the pilot to adjust for those factors when shooting. Lasers, missiles, lbx, clan uacs all spread damage naturally.

If you think mechs hit X spot every time you are either standing still or you are just making a disingenuous argument to suit your point.

And comparing what a human is capable to a robot with a nuclear reactor built in the year 3000 in a make believe universe. Great point there. That is sarcasm.

Tichorius Davion, on 06 October 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

Oh boo hoo, you lose instant convergence. Sorry that the introduction of skill into the torso mounted weapons that should not be able to gyrate will affect you so heavily.

Disabling instant convergence on torso mounted weapons is not a heavy nerf at all. The only real difference for anyone that can get beyond the desync is that you need to aim at different points along a range. Rather than pointing your reticule at a mech along all ranges and still achieve magical instant convergence.

So you don't understand chassis vs chassis balance. I am glad you have voiced your opinion on the forum.

Edited by 3rdworld, 06 October 2014 - 08:51 AM.

[Roadbeer]

3rdworld, on 06 October 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

And comparing what a human is capable to a robot with a nuclear reactor built in the year 3000 in a make believe universe. Great point there. That is sarcasm.

Um, it's a mech being piloted by a human, not a robot. It is prone to human error despite all the fancy targeting computers you bring into play.

So, you don't understand the core fundamentals of the fiction behind the game you're playing. I'm glad you have voiced your opinion on the forum.

[Alek Ituin]

Cone of Fire would ruin this game. It would be all brawling all the time, removing any semblance of tactical combat, making each match a giant tardfest in the center of the map. Nothing built for engagements over 500m would be useful at actually hitting targets at long range, negating at least half the Mech chassis we have, and probably maybe 1/4 of the weapons.

Convergence on the other hand, allows you to place shots exactly where you want, after waiting for all your weapons to align. You can still snipe with a single weapon, but multi-weapon sniper alpha boats wouldn't be able to put that alpha strike in one spot unless you've been sitting in the open for a while. No RNG mechanics fouling the game, required skill level increased, TTK goes up, Ghost Heat can shove off finally, and the myriad other "fixes" for PPFLD alphas can go as well.


And on top of convergence, add in a global 30 heat cap to stop super-alphas from ever being a thing again.

[Roadbeer]

Alek Ituin, on 06 October 2014 - 09:39 AM, said:

Cone of Fire would ruin this game....

I would be ok with a movement based CoF. If you're traveling at over say 20-30 Kph. Obviously I'd prefer to have convergence modified by movement, but to do that, we need to bring convergence. If it's a matter of low hanging fruit, then movement CoF gets the nod.

Even the most advanced tanks of our day can hit a target traveling at 60Kph, but you'd be hard pressed to find a gunner that said "I put a shell right down the enemies barrel", without a follow up of "and it was a damn lucky shot"

Edited by Roadbeer, 06 October 2014 - 09:51 AM.