348 replies to this topic

[Belorion]

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

Yes, both IS and Clan mech have different kind of weapon's. Giving them there own kind of play style. While the Clanner weapon dealing damage over a longer period of time.
The IS are making damage in a shorter time.

There were intended to be like that in game. Removing the AC/## difference would start to destroy the difference of playstyle.

No... AC/20 is an AC/20... they can play with having Clan a little more rate of fiery... but this is literally the only solution I see for combating high damage alphas that will keep me playing other than ghost heat. All... and I mean every single suggestion I have seen to come up with something better, is actually much worse.

[Adiuvo]

Mcgral18, on 03 October 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

It's almost like your saying this point and click adventure requires skill.


There is no skill in MWO's shooting system, no variables to account for. Everything will magically, instantly converge. You boat as many weapons that's feasible, they will all hit the same target.

Barring different travel speeds, of course, but hitscan doesn't have that issue.

A system that had a choice, sequentially fire the allotted amount of pinpoint firepower, or alpha with a risk of not hitting the same pixel with a half dozen weapons. There would be a risk, and a skill to place damage over a period of time on the same component. MWO certainly doesn't have that. Wait for them to turn, FIRE EVERYTHING! (which will all hit the same pixel)

While I would say that the skill required in playing lasers is less than that required for PPCs, it's complete bullshit to say that the game requires no skill.

I've spectated enough players and I've seen them miss enough shots, be it with lasers or PPCs, to know that most people in this game can't aim to save their life. I don't think there's anything supremely special with MWO's player base to account for this. It's a factor of the game. Variable terrain throws people off, and most people couldn't lead shots regardless.

Hoax415, on 03 October 2014 - 02:54 PM, said:

Yawn.

Don't quote me if you are going to avoid addressing anything in the post of mine you quoted.

You didn't post anything but predictable personal opinion.

If we polled the player community:
TTK is too low
TTK is fine
TTK is too high

You know damn well what the response would be. So you ignore that part of the conversation.

"the game would be less fun" you say. Hardly a universal opinion and you know it.

You claim the weapons are balanced around pinpoint alpha except we've seen time and time and time again that the balancing act is always to try to reduce the effectiveness of a given pinpoint alpha setup. Because nothing else in the game matters except those few times they have completely broken missiles often through accidents (splash damage fiasco comes to mind).

Yep, it'd probably be TTK too low. At the same time, the skill of the average player isn't particularly high. Games with a longevity don't balance around the average player.

CoF isn't the only solution to the 'TTK' problem. I'm pretty sure it's one of the least popular suggestions. Yesterday during the town hall when CoF was brought up basically everyone said something akin to 'No CoF'.

Weapon accuracy is a large factor to how something will be balanced. If that's difficult for someone to figure out just based on thinking about it, use streaks and machine guns as an example. Or the basic function of lasers and ballistics.

[Hoax415]

Eddrick, on 03 October 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

If spread is totaly predictable and can be compensated for. I'm fine with that. But, a totaly random Cone of Fire, I'm not okay with.

Yes ideally you would have a system that for every single mech variant spreads each weapon hardpoint in a logical direction away from the center dot.

That is probably a bit too much to ask for though. Because it means that every mech in the game has its own "convergence cone" or whatever the **** we are calling it.

It might be possible though to spread the weapons based on their location on the mech. So basically all Left Arm weapons would fire to the left of the center of the cone at a predictable height. Its not as exact as a system where mechs with high arms versus mechs with low low slung arms would have their shots diverge from the center point differently but its infinitely more doable.

The whole point though is it can be compensated for by NOT firing all of your weapons at once. The idea is not to prevent people from hitting what they mean to hit. Its to make putting more damage out at once have an accuracy trade off.

The idea is that people shouldn't be able to deliver their entire weapon loadout to the exact same pixel instantaneously.

Foxfire, on 03 October 2014 - 03:27 PM, said:

[slow convergence over time advocate]

You are looking for a system like WoT but that would make light mechs basically invulnerable and causes huge problems if you even think about aiming at someone's legs.

Don't you dare mention manual convergence range setting because I don't think there has ever been a popular shooter that has tried that for good reason.

Xanquil, on 03 October 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

As been stated in so many other threads, perfect instant pinpoint convergent alpha strikes are the core of so many problems with MWO.
However as much as COF is hated (and feared) it is the easiest and most common way to simulate the large number of unseen, unforeseen, and just out on out unknowable issues that can come up while in combat.
In addition COF is an easy way to tweak weapon balance, Mech balance, and add variables for movement/heat.
As much as I hate COF It is really the easiest to explain to new players, mostly because it is in almost every other FPS out there already.
As long as it gives a reason for people to do something other than alpha strike all day,(like chain fire, single fire weapons) than I say add a COF to alpha strikes.
In addition It will increase TTK, make several of the "non competitive" mechs (because of hit boxes) much more viable. Andgo a long way to making this "a Battletech game" like it says under the MechWarrior Online logo.

Hey look someone actually gets it. Faith in humanity +1

Edited by Hoax415, 03 October 2014 - 04:01 PM.

[Kain Demos]

It's funny you mention accuracy. I consider myself to be much better than most with PPCs (my hit rate is around 2/3s now) and the other night some guy spectating me started talking **** to me because I missed a stalker twice when the framerate started going to ****.

I've spectated many people who seem unaware that you can use shift to temporarily stabilize your crosshairs a bit and synchronize all of your weapons thanks to the temporary arm lock.

[KuroNyra]

Where's the instant-convergence?
Are you rolling dice and missing target?


We should have something like that.

[Mcgral18]

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

While I would say that the skill required in playing lasers is less than that required for PPCs, it's complete bullshit to say that the game requires no skill.

I've spectated enough players and I've seen them miss enough shots, be it with lasers or PPCs, to know that most people in this game can't aim to save their life. I don't think there's anything supremely special with MWO's player base to account for this. It's a factor of the game. Variable terrain throws people off, and most people couldn't lead shots regardless.

You'll notice I said no skill in MWO shooting system.

I stand by that. It's as simplistic as it gets.

[cSand]

All these people saying we need COF issue seem to think that 2 mechs just stand in front of each other, not moving, and blast away.

yes, if that were the case then pinpoint is an issue. I would like the old convergence system back (also making that elite mech tweak useful again)

But we move around, twist, jump... firing an AC5 and an AC10 and a ppc at the same time will put the shells at a different spot on the target, even though the cross hair is on one place. Sure 2 of any weapon (AC20 for example) will do a shitload of damage on one spot but hey, those dual ac20 jagers or w/e have weaknesses of their own. Don't FACEHUG it and you're probably OK'

Artificially nerfing player aim in the name of "fairness" with randomization is insane. We don't remove math from the education system because some kids are too stupid to do it.

As that Kyle guy put it in another thread, it's more like mech chess. If you make a wrong move, you should be reduced to a steaming pile. Half the battle is decided before you even contact the enemy

Edited by cSand, 03 October 2014 - 04:03 PM.

[terrycloth]

Partial convergence seems like an easy fix -- have all the weapons converge at a point 25% past the target, or 50m or whatever works best after trying a few values. It won't be computationally any different than current convergence, you might actually have an easier time hitting spider legs, and it'll make chain-firing the only way to get all of your weapons on the same pixel. At the same time, under most ordinary conditions you'll still at least hit the mech if you aim center of mass (because you'll be hitting inside a circle 25% the size of your own mech).

[cSand]

Hoax415, on 03 October 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Yes ideally you would have a system that for every single mech variant spreads each weapon hardpoint in a logical direction away from the center dot.

We had a system like that at one point, but it caused huge issues with hit registration so it was axed... that;s why the "pinpoin" tweak is useless now

[Mcgral18]

cSand, on 03 October 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

All these people saying we need COF issue seem to think that 2 mechs just stand in front of each other, not moving, and blast away.

yes, if that were the case then pinpoint is an issue. I would like the old convergence system back (also making that elite mech tweak useful again)

But we move around, twist, jump... firing an AC5 and an AC10 and a ppc at the same time will put the shells at a different spot on the target, even though the cross hair is on one place. Sure 2 of any weapon (AC20 for example) will do a shitload of damage on one spot but hey, those dual ac20 jagers or w/e have weaknesses of their own. Don't FACEHUG it and you're probably OK'

Artificially nerfing player aim in the name of "fairness" with randomization is insane. We don't remove math from the education system because some kids are too stupid to do it.

As that Kyle guy put it in another thread, it's more like mech chess. If you make a wrong move, you should be reduced to a steaming pile. Half the battle is decided before you even contact the enemy

Sorry, I wanted a battletech game, not a point and click adventure.

Besides, have you ever read HBs targeting computer overload solution?

Fire too much, overload the computer, and your weapons go parallel, not random, simply stop converging. If you alpha everything, you'll get a spread. If you don't exceed the allowance, you get your perfect instantaneous convergence, as it currently is.

[Hoax415]

Adiuvo, on 03 October 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

Yep, it'd probably be TTK too low. At the same time, the skill of the average player isn't particularly high. Games with a longevity don't balance around the average player.

Games with longevity balance around fun. If you want to present an argument for how the instant coring due to instantaneous pinpoint alpha strikes of FLD weapons is fun maximizing I look forward to that.

inb4 that is piloting error, git gud.

Quote

CoF isn't the only solution to the 'TTK' problem. I'm pretty sure it's one of the least popular suggestions. Yesterday during the town hall when CoF was brought up basically everyone said something akin to 'No CoF'.

This thread makes it pretty clear why that is. Damn near every person who is opposed to any kind of CoF system seems to imagine some system where every shot you take with every weapon now goes somewhere that may or may not be where you were aiming.

I see very few people who seem to be arguing against the actual reasonable proposal which is if you fire a massive alpha you shouldn't maintain pinpoint accuracy with every single weapon hitting the same place.

You are probably one of the only people in this thread who is clear on what we are talking about and still opposed.

Quote

Weapon accuracy is a large factor to how something will be balanced. If that's difficult for someone to figure out just based on thinking about it, use streaks and machine guns as an example. Or the basic function of lasers and ballistics.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying here. Yes obviously if PPC's fired together were no longer pinpoint accurate there would be a strong argument for removing ghost heat or giving them back their projectile speed or whatever.

So yes what weapons affected accuracy and how much would be an aspect of balancing if you went with a system where each weapon has some kind of "accuracy" rating that comes into play when its fired along with other weapons.

But its really pointless to worry about the minutia of a system that we haven't even defined yet.

So the only question is:

Would MWO be more fun or less fun if the ability to fire alpha strikes with perfect pinpoint accuracy for everyone weapon was removed?

Edited by Hoax415, 03 October 2014 - 04:14 PM.

[Foxfire]

Hoax415, on 03 October 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

You are looking for a system like WoT but that would make light mechs basically invulnerable and causes huge problems if you even think about aiming at someone's legs.

Don't you dare mention manual convergence range setting because I don't think there has ever been a popular shooter that has tried that for good reason.

At no point would I advocate being able to manually set convergence.

Ultimately, it is all a matter of how it is implemented. If properly done, it could actually restore some resemblance of balance by giving a proper job to Mediums.

[Ultimax]

stjobe, on 03 October 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

No randomness, my sweet lower rear center torso.

On that chart, I think it's a safe assumption that a small deviation on the torso is still likely to one-shot kill the target.


So are you advocating we have CoF, but when you do get a direct hit the target is one-hit killed?

I could live with that system.

[KuroNyra]

cSand, on 03 October 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

All these people saying we need COF issue seem to think that 2 mechs just stand in front of each other, not moving, and blast away.

Did I say otherwise? Of course mech move and attack, and thank god it's possible, it reduce a bit the problem.

cSand, on 03 October 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

But we move around, twist, jump... firing an AC5 and an AC10 and a ppc at the same time will put the shells at a different spot on the target, even though the cross hair is on one place. Sure 2 of any weapon (AC20 for example) will do a shitload of damage on one spot but hey, those dual ac20 jagers or w/e have weaknesses of their own. Don't FACEHUG it and you're probably OK'

And you jump, twist, aaannnndd shoot the moment you have the target on your crosshair and kaboom. all your weapon fire on the exact same location of your target. You shoot with your beloved AC/40 jaegger mech. BOOM! Your target is down. GGCLOSE/SOMUCHSKILL
Even if you were under heavy fire, no problem. You still have the all mighty instant-convergence allowing you with out effort to shoot. It's point&click at the moment. And in no way near a real battletech battle.


Damn, a few minutes before I even saw a freaking dragon attacking on melee a direwolf. Guess what? The laser from his arm went from his arm... Directly a bit on the left at a 45° angle in order to shoot the CT where the cross hair was.


It looked something like that.

http://image.noelsha...convergence.png

Spoiler

And I notice it's even wrong on the picture I made on paint. Both green laser should hit the exact same location technicly.

Very realistic in did. No point & click at all.

cSand, on 03 October 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

Artificially nerfing player aim in the name of "fairness" with randomization is insane. We don't remove math from the education system because some kids are too stupid to do it.

I don't think what is insane. The instant-convergence and all the problem it had bring so far? Or you really trying to defend that even if in the lore the instant-convergence is non-existent.

How can you defend that?
You are twisting in your light mech, jumping to get out of the way of your ennemy, and finally start to getting away out of his vi... Nevermind, he destroyed your leg thanks to the instant-convergence system.
Point&Click. GG, Close.

cSand, on 03 October 2014 - 04:01 PM, said:

As that Kyle guy put it in another thread, it's more like mech chess. If you make a wrong move, you should be reduced to a steaming pile. Half the battle is decided before you even contact the enemy

Yes, but not because of a stupid instant-convergence system.

Edited by KuroNyra, 03 October 2014 - 04:27 PM.

[Hoax415]

cSand, on 03 October 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

We had a system like that at one point, but it caused huge issues with hit registration so it was axed... that;s why the "pinpoin" tweak is useless now

No no no. That's a different system. In that system your weapons were always seeking to converge on whatever your crosshair was on from some starting point. That will never work because lights are too fast and it basically means you never aim at anything but CT for fear of the xhair slipping off your target and your weapons now converging to hit something at a drastically different range.

That system required too much player skill to be fun. Your crosshair could never waver off your target for even an instant without messing up your shot. There was no visual indicator of any of this taking place so shots that looked good went askew.

Also it really exaggerated the problem with invisible terrain because your weapons would converge on things you couldn't see.

That's a system where weapons converge towards the center dot based on where you aim. Which as we all experienced in CB/OB did not work in MWO worth a damn and was incredibly unfun.

This thread is more about having the shots spread out from the center dot based on XYZ factors. That idea doesn't rely on RNG instead its more similar to many FPS games that have a "recoil" system where firing while performing certain actions (running, jumping, etc) or in certain ways (full held down trigger auto) makes your shots not land on the center dot anymore. But it also doesn't make a shot where you are aiming down fire up because of RNG. Nobody wants that. Well nobody smart wants that.

Basically what we have now is exactly what FPS games went through and "solved" many years ago.

There was a time when the best way to play many FPS was called bunny hopping. You would spam jump because it made it harder to hit you (esp in the head) but did nothing negative to your own accuracy. Other games had.. **** I think they called it dolphin diving or something where you would jump and them spam prone so players would be jumping into the air then basically belly flopping into a prone firing position all the damn time.

This wasn't fun because it looked and felt stupid.

You see basically a direct analogue in the way jj mechs, especially mad cats spam tap their jet button because it throws of opponent's shots by shifting their hurtboxes around wildly but has zero drawback on their aim.

Edited by Hoax415, 03 October 2014 - 04:35 PM.

[KuroNyra]

Hoax415, on 03 October 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

No no no. That's a different system. In that system your weapons were always seeking to converge on whatever your crosshair was on from some starting point. That will never work because lights are too fast and it basically means you never aim at anything but CT for fear of the xhair slipping off your target and your weapons now converging to hit something at a drastically different range.

That system required too much player skill to be fun. Your crosshair could never waver off your target for even an instant without messing up your shot. There was no visual indicator of any of this taking place so shots that looked good went askew.

Also it really exaggerated the problem with invisible terrain because your weapons would converge on things you couldn't see.

That's a system where weapons converge towards the center dot based on where you aim. Which as we all experienced in CB/OB did not work in MWO worth a damn and was incredibly unfun.

This thread is more about having the shots spread out from the center dot based on XYZ factors. That idea doesn't rely on RNG instead its more similar to many FPS games that have a "recoil" system where firing while performing certain actions (running, jumping, etc) or in certain ways (full held down trigger auto) makes your shots not land on the center dot anymore.

Keep trying.



They won't understand that this is not a RNG system like the one in World of Tank we could try.
But... How can I describe it? A system who will stop the instant-convergence. But wouldn't kill the convergence either. But limiting it in a reasonable way.
You fire your ballistic and PPC? Your won't all hit the exact same place if you fire another shot and you will need few second/millisecond to let your gun recalibrate to the angle.

I'm off to bed, 2.30 am in France.

Edited by KuroNyra, 03 October 2014 - 04:34 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Belorion, on 03 October 2014 - 01:14 PM, said:

NO... Never

just say no to cone of fire.

well, atleast if we had a Cof of sorts, PGI could go and make that now useless convergeance elite skill on mechs worth something....Simply make it so your Cof settles 5% faster...idk...lol.

[IraqiWalker]

KuroNyra, on 03 October 2014 - 01:04 PM, said:

OP

Kuro, here's a refinement of your idea:


Scaling convergence, coupled with speed. Different convergence speeds for different weapons, and hardpoint locations. Plus, the mech's movement speed impacts it. Standing mechs will converge all weapons almost instantly, while mechs moving at 100% will take a bit longer. mechs moving at below 85% for example, will have great convergence speeds, while mechs moving much faster will be a bit slower at getting all of their weapons to hit that one millimeter.

For example, if that Timberwolf going on the move is trying to aim at an Awesome, and the T-Wolf had a UAC5 in the right arm, and 2MLs in the left, plus MPLs in the side torsos, here's what would happen.

Weapons start converging into a pinpoint location, however. The UAC5 takes longer than the MLs to get there. While the MPLs, being in the STs, converge almost instantly. The T-Wolf pilot can fire the MPLs, and the MLs, but to get the UAC5 on point as well, the pilot would have to either wait longer, or slow down the mech's speed.

We get PP damage, we get FLD damage, and we get PP FLD damage, but with a better skill cap.

This solution doesn't screw players' skill, keeps good aim very relevant, and emphasizes great decision making. Plus it helps mitigate PPFLD alphas that one shot people instantly. It solves the instant convergence issue.

Also, because the speed is based on percentage rather than a specific number, it doesn't screw over heavier mech pilots. That means a light mech sprint along at 120 or so Kph with near perfect convergence speeds, or an Atlas steamrolling a defensive line at 54 Kph with great accuracy as well.

I'm thinking of doing a full write up of this if people think it's a reasonable idea.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 03 October 2014 - 04:41 PM.

[1453 R]

God I hate convergence threads.

Assume for the moment that you guys all get what you want. Convergence is eliminated entirely, and any time anyone fires more than one weapon at a time their 'Mech has a gigantic mechanical seizure, spraying weapons fire in all directions in a full 360-degree sphere before punching itself in the head hitbox and auto-ejecting the pilot on top of a box of fireworks. There's not even any point to carrying more than one weapon on a 'Mech anymore because discharging more than one in a ten-second period causes the machine to break into a fit of the Riverdance while also doing Yosemite Sam's pistol-jetpack thing while hidden warhorns in its knees belt out the Russian national anthem.

Then guess what? People will still look for ways to hit what they shoot at. The 'best' builds will be the ones that can deal as much damage as possible with their single-fired weapons and put damage where the pilot wants to put it.

You cannot get rid of the ability to hit what you aim at in a game whose primary function/interaction is aiming and shooting. If you block players from being able to aim because the Dire Whale touched you in a bad place last drop and you're fed up with having to try and be aware of the battlefield enough to avoid Gigaspikes, then the game is no longer fun and either the system is ripped right back out (Like, oh, say...WHAT HAPPENED IN CLOSED BETA), or it just folds altogether.

Yes yes yes yes YES, I KNOW - all your systems provide all kinds of ways to get back accurate fire (with one weapon at a time, in strict chainfire mode, with all sorts of modifiers and penalties to prevent macro use). Here's the thing - if a player has to conduct a blood ritual under the dark of the moon to appease the black gods of the Outer Dark according to the instructions in the Book of Heresy in order to get accurate fire on a target, you're doing it wrong. Just...doing it wrong.

Stop walking in front of things that can peel half your armor off with one salvo and you'll do much better 'round these parts.

[Foxfire]

1453 R, on 03 October 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

Stop walking in front of things that can peel half your armor off with one salvo and you'll do much better 'round these parts.

As soon as they fix hit detection so that you can't get shot through a wall.. sure.

I've had entirely too many games where I make it securely into cover only to lose a component or become cripplingly damaged because of damage that I have no way to defend myself from because, when I shot across an opening, no one was there.