132 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

@Alphastuck

As far as AMS goes, I've had my mechs (which I stat isn't a boat) be rendered completely useless for their main weapon (LRMs) because a team had so many AMS systems. This kinda shouldn't be either and need a rebalanced. However, at the same time I agree that AMS should be reducing damage and taking 1 AMS should still be effective at reducing some damage.

I'd also like to note, AMS is best if the missiles aren't targeted on you personally. They work best when the LRMs fly completely through your AMS's bubble of influence, AKA: The LRMs fly to a target just behind or to the side of you. LRMs aimed at you get effected slightly less than ones not aimed at you, depending upon the LRM target and the bubble of the AMS.

The problem I have is, no system should render a weapon system ineffective (useless) or make it a gamble to take. AMS and ECM can make LRM mechs (unless/even if boated) feel rather useless when they can't target to use their LRMs (as you can't really blind fire them well due to their flight mechanic and slow travel speeds), or they see their entire LRM20 volley get shot down by two AMS (I've strangely seen it happen to me, several times). I don't know how the AMS should be balanced, but I can agree with your changes to ECM.

ECM I have the suggested change: Reduce the "cloak" effect to a drastically reduced timer. This means an ECM unit that ducks from cover to cover will remain harder to detect (can't target them for the short time you can see them), but if you wish to stand out in the open, after x seconds (30? 15?) people could target you and get missile locks (probably with an increase to missile targeting time). It's the invisibility to targeting thing that makes it too overpowered, but I do feel it still needs it a bit to keep it as a scout/flanking/surprise enhancing gear. I want to encourage ECM units to use it for stealth and surprise, not as a shield while standing out in the open areas...

[AlphaStruck]

@Tesunie

No one wants a weapon system to be useless but what your describing is a team using AMS to defeat you. This supports my argument. A single boat should be made less effective even by a great deal(If the enemy team is willing to setup for anit missle ability giving a little on something else). The idea is to have 8 of your team firing on same target with small racks when spotted. 8xLRM5s will bypass AMS easy, a single mech with 4xLRM15's should take a much larger hit making people want to work with their team on targets. Lone wolf builds that just happen to be on your team should not work well. Having 3xLRM5's on a mech is very useful for your team as chainfired it will occupy enemy AMS letting your teammates bypass it, but you wont see the amazing damage on your end game screen.

Again with a pregame launch lobby we could see our teams mechs and at least attempt to build synergy "Hey, my team doesnt have a ECM mech, maybe I should run one"

Would you accept this for ECM?

small range = Total coverage
small but larger range = Triple lock time
medium range = 25% slower lock time
Maybe a fall off time to stop insta hide feature to counter the here and gone again effect ECM has

Edited by AlphaStruck, 08 October 2014 - 03:57 PM.

[Pjwned]

If your only problem is LRM rain then you can shut down your mech for the duration of the NARC, of course that does leave you a sitting duck if any other enemy mech decides to finish you off with direct fire, but it is possible to retreat behind the lines and shut down where you won't be in much danger if allies are nearby.

The MAIN PROBLEM though is that NARC still doesn't give you any warning on your screen if you have a NARC attached to you. Your teammates can see it and tell you that you're NARC'd, but unless you're in voice comms with other people and they manage to tell you, it's pretty much next to nothing because it so rarely happens, so there should be a warning on your screen as well if you have a NARC on you.

Edited by Pjwned, 08 October 2014 - 04:47 PM.

[Madcap72]

Just be glad that the LRM firing mechs have to lock on first.


If the NARC worked like MW4, ALL missles would track on you, locked or not.

[Brizna]

The only fix NARC needs is an on screen warning that you've been narced. The lack of that warning is another reasson why ECM rocks, at least then you get a vague indicator: "Was I narced or is there a counter ECM nearby?" at least you know something is amiss before you get a multi misile incoming warning

[Mechsniper]

I think most people are overlooking the 6lrm5 anomaly here. LRM 5's are recharging WAAY too quick and allowing a lot of smaller mechs = larger mechs with missiles, as well as making builds such as the 6 lrm5 vultures and catapaults supercheese when paired with one one or 2 narc throwers on a team. Maybe lrm ammo needs to weigh more to eliminate spamming. There needs to be more balance with lrms/narc working as they do. split a team of lrmboats and narc throwng ecm lights and the enemy is done with lrms raining at 90 degree angles on them. One narc and any assault is dead in <10 sec. that is truly op when he is standing in a frikin' city with buildings all around. The reason to take smaller lrm racks should be that your mech can't carry a larger one. The DPS increase with smaller ones needs to go away IMHO.

[Xarian]

There's no DPS increase using smaller launchers - the opposite, in fact. You have a potential damage increase with smaller launchers because it gets you more tonnage for ammo. If I'm using LRM 50 with 1000 missiles, I do the same overall damage as LRM 5 with 1000 missiles. Small launchers get eaten up by AMS more effectively, and they eat more hardpoints - which is very relevant if you want to use SRMs or SSRMs.

The only real advantages to smaller launchers are that (1) smaller mechs can use them with decent amounts of ammo, and (2) more small launchers gives more screen shake than fewer large launchers.

There are two strategies to dealing with LRM rain:
First, pick your battles and don't stand out in the open.
Second, blitz. The LRM boats are effectively useless if they have multiple mechs up in their grill.

If you aren't using one of the many strategies to countering LRMs, then you deserve to lose. Don't expect to waddle your 4x Gauss Direwolf across an open field in every game and win just because you have 1337 w3ap0nz.

[Sandpit]

Kotev, on 04 October 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

every weapon or weapon system must have some counter-measure for balance purposes,

ecm
cover
ams

that's 3 off the top of my head....

It DOES have counters, players just have to learn to adjust. Narc was completely useless prior to getting a slight buff. Now it actually provides some usefulness. Giving the narc'd player a notification would be a big help though.

[kilgor]

The thing is if ECM can counter Narc when it's on another 'Mech, why can't it completely nullify one attached directly to it. But, since there has to be some negative, either the duration should be significantly reduced to something like 10 seconds or the ECM coverage range should be halved for the duration.

[Tesunie]

I'd like to mention, I was using the Thor Prime in matches earlier today, and my CLRM15 actually got eaten up completely (rendering an entire weapon system useless) by a single AMS system (that I could see). I repeatedly shot my LRM15 off and did no damage to my target.

Now, in reverse, if that was an Gauss, PPC or LL, it would have hit and dealt damage.

As far as AMS goes, and all the other counters for LRMs in the game, most times unless you boat (and this is kinda what is causing the boating problems), it's a gamble if your LRM system (which counter to common belief, does require some degree of skill to use well) is even going to be worth it's tonnage. I often time have had half my Stalker build (x2 LRM15s) being useless because of ECM or just two AMS systems (It's happened to me before). That's the tonnage for the LRM15s, Artemis, and 7 additional tons (honestly, I probably don't need that much LRM ammo) that is rendered useless by 1.5 - 3 tons of equipment.

I'm not saying AMS is bad. I'm not even saying ECM is bad. I'm just saying it's encouraging more boating, as you can't get away with placing just one LRM10 system on your mech and get it's tonnage worth of damage (most times). Thus, people take "MORE" LRM launchers, as many as they can squeeze in. This then exasperates the issue of NARC when it does come up, as then those LRM boats, if they are there, rain death on anyone who isn't prepared for it.

Essentially, just like with any weapon system in this game really, any weapon that is boated starts to become a problem.

LRMs are hard for people to understand out of all the weapons, in part due to their utility and multiple ways of use. Indirect fire is just one of their uses (the root of many complaints I think). (If you really want to know my opinions on LRMs, how to use them, etc, check out my guides on them. One guide is linked in my signature, and the rest should be linked from that thread there.)

[Monkey Lover]

I just played 4 games narcing only 1 cata had lrms all 4 times. I think match maker is already nerfing this for you

[Tesunie]

kilgor, on 08 October 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

The thing is if ECM can counter Narc when it's on another 'Mech, why can't it completely nullify one attached directly to it. But, since there has to be some negative, either the duration should be significantly reduced to something like 10 seconds or the ECM coverage range should be halved for the duration.

Technically, NARC is not suppose to counter ECM. Then again, ECM is not suppose to counter targeting and LRMs. ECM is suppose to make a mech slightly (not impossible) harder to detect. ECM is suppose to nullify all the bonuses for the advanced guidance gear and a C3 network. This includes Artemis and NARC bonuses to LRM fire. However, I have to agree a bit with how ECM is in the game, in the fact that the "harder to detect" part needed to be expressed a bit more in this game as the other effects wouldn't be enough on it's own. However, I feel it's a little too much at the moment with it's near complete targeting (and thus LRM immunity) cloaking field.

[Aresye]

Kjudoon, on 04 October 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

Narc stays on it's full 30 second time (or with the time extender module for whatever it is), then it now knocks out a mech's ECM module for the same period of time. It finally made the piece of equipment usable. Before the NARC buff it was NEVER used on the battlefield because it was a waste of weight and slots. Now, you see it about as often as you see ECM and finally ECM isn't always the magic stealth box of crutches it has become known as.

There is nothing wrong with narc that can't be cured by COVER... In fact, Narc+cover= burned up LRM bunkers for nothing. There's your pro tip.

So what do you suggest when the MM puts you on Caustic Valley w/ no teammates that have ECM? Seems to me that if there's a possibility of being dropped on a map with little to no cover, on a team that has no counters, then that would be a balance issue that needs to be addressed, considering the player has no control over which map they drop on, or their team composition.

That's literally the only issue with missile balance that needs to be addressed. The effectiveness of missiles and their counters should never be based on the dice roll of the MM. A missile player should not be useless because of the MM, just like how a non-missile player shouldn't be obliterated by an unbreakable lock with no counters because of the MM. It's unfair to both parties to have them be fated to a horrible game simply because of the MM.

[Kjudoon]

Aresye, on 08 October 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

So what do you suggest when the MM puts you on Caustic Valley w/ no teammates that have ECM? Seems to me that if there's a possibility of being dropped on a map with little to no cover, on a team that has no counters, then that would be a balance issue that needs to be addressed, considering the player has no control over which map they drop on, or their team composition.

That's literally the only issue with missile balance that needs to be addressed. The effectiveness of missiles and their counters should never be based on the dice roll of the MM. A missile player should not be useless because of the MM, just like how a non-missile player shouldn't be obliterated by an unbreakable lock with no counters because of the MM. It's unfair to both parties to have them be fated to a horrible game simply because of the MM.

Happens to me frequently and I still find cover on Caustic. I refer to Monty Python's "How Not to be Seen". It's not only possible, it's easy when you know the map. Honestly, I wish ECM, if it isn't fixed, should be limited to 1 per lance max and both sides allowed equal ECM.

[Torgun]

On a related note, are we finally able to see when we're narced on our HUD?

[Orion2011]

Narc is not OP. It takes a lot of skill to deploy Narc. I've tried it, you have to get close and the projectile is very slow. Problem is there are lots of skilled people using it. Before the buff is was usless which is why you never saw it.

The one thing I will say is there is very little cover that helps you when your Narced. Missles get crazy manuverable, a tunnel is about the only sure bet for cover.

[AzarathRaven]

People have made some great points here. I think the unanimous decision is that you should be alerted when you are hit with NARC; some kind of on-screen notification similar to the ECM indicator.

Also, the NARC projectile could be a little more visible; I mean it just looks like a gray cylinder. It is supposed to be a rocket so show some exhaust or something (maybe it does but I have never seen it). Since it can go through ECM (in certain instances) perhaps a shorter duration would be good too. Not drastically shorter, just 5 or 10 seconds. Don't forget about the NARC module, the range and duration are increased. Although you don't want to limit the weapon so much that you need the module to be effective, you need to take that into consideration.

Also, although the title of the thread is "NARC game breaking cheat", I think most of us can agree that it is not. NARC should be a viable weapon and there are other issues that have been brought up that influence this current discussion.

[STEF_]

Kotev, on 04 October 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Its ridiculous, you get Narced and everyone on the map within 1000m fire missles at you. Standing behind coverage doesn`t work becouse of the stupid LRM arc. Its literaly death sentence. Needs to be corected becouse it`s game breaker. There is no protection. I have tried powering down mech, doesn`t work either.

LEARN. TO. COVER.

(I quite never get narced or lurmed to death..... guess why)

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 09 October 2014 - 12:18 PM.

[Metus regem]

Stefka Kerensky, on 09 October 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

LEARN. TO. COVER.

(I quite never get narced or lurmed to death..... guess why)

Last time I got NARC'ed I was on the new map, in my ECM triple AMS Kit Fox, guess what, I lived! I just had to get into some cover, and let the AMS ring out like a boss.

Most maps, (Not all) have some place that you can go, to avoid LRM rain, the best cover against it though, is be inside the 180m dead zone for IS LRM's....

[Col Jaime Wolf]

nerf em! nerf it all! nerf TW! nerf tactics! nerf all the systems! nominal all the nerfs!

then QQ in a rage.

but to the OP ya it sucks to get narc'd but its part of the game and part of what little role warefare we have.

advise? dont be the first on in. when you are narc'd your only concern is getting behind cover or hugging an ecm mech. also in some small way you now know where the lrm boats are and can flank them.

think outside the box and run 2 mechs set up with modules so when you get decimated in the first 2 min of a match you just go to your next mech.