132 replies to this topic

[Kotev]

Its ridiculous, you get Narced and everyone on the map within 1000m fire missles at you. Standing behind coverage doesn`t work becouse of the stupid LRM arc. Its literaly death sentence. Needs to be corected becouse it`s game breaker. There is no protection. I have tried powering down mech, doesn`t work either.

[Domoneky]

Have you tied going to another Mech equipped with ECM? If you went into the range of an ECM Mech the NARC wont transmit. Also you have to use the terrain as Cover. Example would be like River city or Crimson Straight. Use the buildings to block LRMs from hitting you.

[Rayne Vickers]

I'm guessing you're new? I'm not trying to be nasty or anything, but yeah, if you get NARCed, that's gonna happen, it broadcasts a signal to everyone, and anyone with missiles will fire. You CAN duck behind stuff, but you need to run and find the best obstacles you can. Also, your lance and/or team needs to let you know you've been NARCed, in case you don't, and try to help cover you. I had it happen to me a few days ago. NARC was buffed sometime back because it wasn't doing a whole lot of good, it's very useful now, but also very situational.

IIRC, NARC was changed to pierce ECM, but it may only do that on an ECM-equipped 'Mech, not sure.

Edited by Precocious Rayne, 04 October 2014 - 09:44 AM.

[WonderSparks]

Well powering down is not going to help, since any missiles already on the way will still hit you where you stand.
And calling Narc a cheat? I hate to sound nasty, but grow up. It is doing its job, and you just need to adapt to the situation. If there is no adequate cover around, then you just have to eat the missiles. No friendly ECM either? No escape.

[Kotev]

I respect all your opinions but for me every weapon or weapon system must have some counter-measure for balance purposes, i don`t see any for Narc and that is why i called it cheat . Domonecy sugested geting inside ECM envelope but what to do if there is no ECM in the team or is in the other side of the map. You all know that if isn`t below bridge or very very tall building you can`t cover successfully becouse LRM arc is nearly 90% angle. For me this is not ballanced well and all you can do is sitting helplessly and watching missles rain on you.

[Kjudoon]

Precocious Rayne, on 04 October 2014 - 09:43 AM, said:

I'm guessing you're new? I'm not trying to be nasty or anything, but yeah, if you get NARCed, that's gonna happen, it broadcasts a signal to everyone, and anyone with missiles will fire. You CAN duck behind stuff, but you need to run and find the best obstacles you can. Also, your lance and/or team needs to let you know you've been NARCed, in case you don't, and try to help cover you. I had it happen to me a few days ago. NARC was buffed sometime back because it wasn't doing a whole lot of good, it's very useful now, but also very situational.

IIRC, NARC was changed to pierce ECM, but it may only do that on an ECM-equipped 'Mech, not sure.

Narc stays on it's full 30 second time (or with the time extender module for whatever it is), then it now knocks out a mech's ECM module for the same period of time. It finally made the piece of equipment usable. Before the NARC buff it was NEVER used on the battlefield because it was a waste of weight and slots. Now, you see it about as often as you see ECM and finally ECM isn't always the magic stealth box of crutches it has become known as.

There is nothing wrong with narc that can't be cured by COVER... In fact, Narc+cover= burned up LRM bunkers for nothing. There's your pro tip.

[Darth Futuza]

Kotev, on 04 October 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

I respect all your opinions but for me every weapon or weapon system must have some counter-measure for balance purposes, i don`t see any for Narc and that is why i called it cheat . Domonecy sugested geting inside ECM envelope but what to do if there is no ECM in the team or is in the other side of the map. You all know that if isn`t below bridge or very very tall building you can`t cover successfully becouse LRM arc is nearly 90% angle. For me this is not ballanced well and all you can do is sitting helplessly and watching missles rain on you.

ECM is the counter for Narc. Tunnel structures or bridges also make it impossible for missiles to get to you. If there isn't anyone on your team with ECM then that's just tough luck for you, bring it yourself, or play with a group so you can strategically coordinate what mech's to bring to the field. Killing the mech with Narc systems before he gets you also helps. Targeting enemy missile boats, so they are too distracted trying to avoid being shot at to take advantage of an exposed narc friendly also helps. Trust us when we say Narc isn't the end of the world. We all deal with it, you are just inexperienced and need a little bit more practice to learn how to win even when the enemy has narc. I think I can agree with you that the missile arc is a bit too much, but it is close to how it should be. Equipping Narc is expensive and the benefits of spending money, ammo, and tonnage on it ought to be worth it, this is why it is so much better then something like BAP or TAG lasers.

[Ironwithin]

"I got killed by weapon X, please nerf weapon X."
Come on ... As Kjudoon pointed out, NARC was literally (no, not virtually) useless before the recent changes. Now it is useful, in the hands of a capable spotter very much so and with LRMs too being useful now (and therefore being used by more people) it adds up to a somewhat good weaponsystem. It's not like you see every 'mech on every team rockin' the NARC, maybe 1 guy has it per team, maybe. That alone shows it can't be that much of a "cheat".

Saying there is no counter is simply not true. AMS is a soft counter, reducing the LRM-clouds and even being capable of taking down the NARC-missile itself with some luck, never leave your mechbay without it. Cover and ECM are hard counters, negating it outright.

Getting NARC'ed can be very very painful if you don't realise it quickly enough but if getting NARC'ed IS very very painful you made a mistake in your positioning in the first place and now pay the price. Learn and adapt.

All that being said, it would be nice if the NARC'ed pilot would get some kind of warning about it so he or she can react quicker and eliminate the pointless search for some imaginary spotter or UAV they can't possibly find.
I mean, my whole team AND the whole enemy team can see that I'm NARC'ed, why can't I ?

[AzureDragoon]

Kotev, on 04 October 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

I respect all your opinions but for me every weapon or weapon system must have some counter-measure for balance purposes, i don`t see any for Narc and that is why i called it cheat . Domonecy sugested geting inside ECM envelope but what to do if there is no ECM in the team or is in the other side of the map. You all know that if isn`t below bridge or very very tall building you can`t cover successfully becouse LRM arc is nearly 90% angle. For me this is not ballanced well and all you can do is sitting helplessly and watching missles rain on you.

Counters to NARC:

• Staying inside a Friendly ECM carrying mech's ECM bubble.
  
• Equipping AMS, finding a bunch of other friendly mechs with AMS, and let them shoot missiles down by standing behind the friendlies with AMS.
  
• Find some High/overhead Cover, Watch as enemies burn through ton or three of ammo before it becomes apparant you're safely behind cover.
  
• Run more than 1000m away from the launchers

And Finally:

If the enemy has a NARC pod, KEEP MOVING. Preferably keep trying to side strafe around them as NARC pods are somewhat slow, medium range distance, and require a fair degree of accuracy to stick in the first place.

Edited by AzureDragoon, 04 October 2014 - 11:13 AM.

[AzarathRaven]

I agree with both sides here. NARC can be annoying when all of a sudden you get missile lock warnings for a minute straight. However, ECM is not the counter to NARC if you have ECM (like me) and are NARCed. I get NARCed in my DDC and it is ridiculous. ECM is supposed to block that. TAG already pierces ECM, and that is a laser with no heat and no ammo and weights less than NARC. Why is NARC beating ECM? That just seems a bit too much.

[Darth Futuza]

AzarathRaven, on 04 October 2014 - 10:37 AM, said:

I agree with both sides here. NARC can be annoying when all of a sudden you get missile lock warnings for a minute straight. However, ECM is not the counter to NARC if you have ECM (like me) and are NARCed. I get NARCed in my DDC and it is ridiculous. ECM is supposed to block that. TAG already pierces ECM, and that is a laser with no heat and no ammo and weights less than NARC. Why is NARC beating ECM? That just seems a bit too much.

Tag requires line of sight though, that's difficult for a scout to keep up without giving his position away and being fried by AC20's or LRMs.

[AzarathRaven]

I would also like to mention about the "run to ECM or use AMS" response. Most mechs that have ECM are lights. Lights are supposed to do a lot or scouting. If a light mech has to stand around his teammates all the time because he is the only one with ECM, that reduces his ability to fulfill his role. With AMS, most mechs can only mount 1. 1 AMS against 1000 missiles is not going to do much. Yes it helps and yes most mechs can mount it, but it is not really effective against loads of missiles at once.

Also, missiles are the only weapon to receive bonuses through in-game items or equipment. Artemis, TAG, and NARC all buff missiles. ECM is the only surefire way to block missiles, but TAG could always light up an ECM-shielded mech and now so can NARC.

I think that missiles should be tweaked a little so that they are not sooo powerful. If I have a mech with one or two lrms (like 2 lrm 10's or 1 lrm 15) I shouldn't be punished. But, since a lot of mechs have variants that can boat, and missiles can receive lots of bonuses, and since the shooter does not need to be exposed, lrms should be toned down a little.

[Rayne Vickers]

AzarathRaven, on 04 October 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

I would also like to mention about the "run to ECM or use AMS" response. Most mechs that have ECM are lights. Lights are supposed to do a lot or scouting. If a light mech has to stand around his teammates all the time because he is the only one with ECM, that reduces his ability to fulfill his role. With AMS, most mechs can only mount 1. 1 AMS against 1000 missiles is not going to do much. Yes it helps and yes most mechs can mount it, but it is not really effective against loads of missiles at once.

To be fair, this is exactly how I play my Kit-Fox, I stay with my team as best I can, I don't scout that much, it's primarily a long and mid-range sniper/support, I also carry 3 AMSes (as the same Pod that can mount the ECM can mount 3 AMSes on the Kit-Fox) so I'm exactly the sort of person you want to run to. As far as nerfing LRMs, as much as I was very much a "LRM Hater" (look up some of my past posts, I've complained a fair bit, even since beta) they were nerfed back quite a bit recently, and I think they're sitting in a good spot right now. Putting any more on them would push them into obscurity.

[Bigbacon]

narc is fine. I run LRM boats with Narc and even narcing my own target doesn't help me score kills or even massive damage.

[AzureDragoon]

AzarathRaven, on 04 October 2014 - 10:48 AM, said:

I would also like to mention about the "run to ECM or use AMS" response. Most mechs that have ECM are lights. Lights are supposed to do a lot or scouting. If a light mech has to stand around his teammates all the time because he is the only one with ECM, that reduces his ability to fulfill his role. With AMS, most mechs can only mount 1. 1 AMS against 1000 missiles is not going to do much. Yes it helps and yes most mechs can mount it, but it is not really effective against loads of missiles at once.

I didn't say they were always viable, I'm saying they are Options that when you CAN use them, you should.

Quote

Also, missiles are the only weapon to receive bonuses through in-game items or equipment. Artemis, TAG, and NARC all buff missiles. ECM is the only surefire way to block missiles, but TAG could always light up an ECM-shielded mech and now so can NARC.

That's because Missiles (notably, LRMs since they are the ones that benefit from all of this) kinda need them to be serious component wreckers. Otherwise, what you are, a Suppressive Fire mech designed to keep enemies heads down, and a bit of damage all over the enemy mech. Even just staying on the move (granted the faster the better) helps reduce damage from LRMs). The average match for me in an LRM boat, is about 180 to 300 DMG, with a missile load out of about 1200+. If I'm REALLY loaded on Missiles, at 1600+, and getting every bonus possible, this might break 500, even 600 damage inflicted. (I.E. my Artemis Equipped Highlander 733, with 3x ALRM10s, and 1 ALRM 15, 2 MLas, and 1 MG)

Quote

I think that missiles should be tweaked a little so that they are not sooo powerful. If I have a mech with one or two lrms (like 2 lrm 10's or 1 lrm 15) I shouldn't be punished. But, since a lot of mechs have variants that can boat, and missiles can receive lots of bonuses, and since the shooter does not need to be exposed, lrms should be toned down a little.

And how would you tone them down? Again see above notes. It's real easy to say "Tone this down" but the reality is... how do you tone down a very team depedent weapon that's already mostly just a support weapon at this point? They're frankly ok at the strentgh they are at in my opinion.

And if you think LRMs are bad, if/when this game reaches 3058 Technology levels, you are going to hate it, because that's when the Draconis Combine starts making Medium Range Missile-10, 20,30, and 40 pack launchers

Oh and in 3057.... Clan mechs with Streak LRMs. You will be pining for the days of Missile boats hiding behind hills and dropping salvos of standard LRMs. Also, Swarm-I LRMs for IS (Technicaly Clans already have Standard Swarm Missiles, but... since exotic amunition has been largely limited currently...)

Oh and before that? Enhanced LRMs (IS missiles that knock their minimum range down by 50%). And are about as fully upgraded with Artmis, and special munitions as bog standard LRMs are.

Edited by AzureDragoon, 04 October 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[AzarathRaven]

One, MRMs are unguided, so I would have no problem with them. Two, Streak LRMs are direct fire only, so you need line of sight which leaves you open to counter attack. Look at sarna.net if you don't believe me. I don't think LRMs are anywhere near to being called obscure. They are in every game. There are tons of variants that are LRM boats. I think toning down the damage slightly (so it is one damage per missile) is okay, right? The LRM20 does 22 and change for damage. Making it an even 20 is a little thing, not a huge change. Maybe a slight increase to reload time and/or heat too.

Look, I am not a rookie player. I have a K/D or 1.48 and have played hundreds of games. I am not saying that LRMs are evil and must be nerfed into oblivion, I just am tired of losing 20% of my health from a Vulture after getting rained on by missiles for 15 seconds. I just think that a tweak here of there would be nice. Also, if you want to follow lore a little, make missile locks possible on an ECM mech when inside of 180 meters. ECM doesn't effect missile guidance systems, just radar. Inside 180m, I think locks would be great.

Also, and I am being serious here and not sarcastic, where is the info on the updated NARC/ECM. I can't find it anywhere if it even exists.

[Zerberus]

Kotev, on 04 October 2014 - 10:00 AM, said:

I respect all your opinions but for me every weapon or weapon system must have some counter-measure for balance purposes, i don`t see any for Narc and that is why i called it cheat . Domonecy sugested geting inside ECM envelope but what to do if there is no ECM in the team or is in the other side of the map. You all know that if isn`t below bridge or very very tall building you can`t cover successfully becouse LRM arc is nearly 90% angle. For me this is not ballanced well and all you can do is sitting helplessly and watching missles rain on you.

The best counter for NARC is not being caought out someplace alone where a someone can narc you in the first place.

The second best is ECM

The third best is cover, which you should already always be near to begin with (if you can`T make it to viable LRM cover on any map withion 4-5 seconds, you`re out of position, period.)

And IIRC AMs can also shoot down a NARC beacon in flight.

But as long as people are talking about "1000 missiles" (there are 3 mechs in the game that can launch volleys of 100, all are joke /troll builds, and even implying encountering more than 2 at a time is simply ridiculous. And for those that will rebutt with "but there are more mechs on teh field", 1000/100 = 10, so to get a thousand missiles in flight at once you need at least 8-9 of these and a few more with smaller lrm racks.), their arguments are so ridden with angst and hyperbole that a rational discussion of the topic doesn`t make much sense anyway.

LRMs are MWO`S version of CoDs N00b Tube. If you`re regularly dying to them, it says a lot more about your skill than about how op the weapons system is. Particularly becasue, like the n00b tube in CoD, anybody that actually wants to be competitive or runs in leagues (I.e. can actually play and understands what they`re doing, or at least attempts to) laughs when they are offered an LRM rack by their tech and says" No, I think I`ll take a small laser instead."

My dire wolf runs 51ish. If I can almost completely avoid ever dying to lrms, then anyone can.

Edited by Zerberus, 04 October 2014 - 02:29 PM.

[Bigbacon]

LRMs are only truly dangerous if you get caught in the open OR mech firing said LRMs has LOS to you.

Edited by Bigbacon, 04 October 2014 - 03:14 PM.

[Ironwithin]

AzarathRaven, on 04 October 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

...
Also, and I am being serious here and not sarcastic, where is the info on the updated NARC/ECM. I can't find it anywhere if it even exists.

It is a very sad reality that PGI is not very good with documentation ... you have to dig through dozens upon dozens of patch notes to see what currently does what and even then features lack any in-depth information on how they work or why they work the way they do.

[That Dawg]

GET COVER!!

Great advice, however, about half the maps really dont have adequate cover.
folks get narc'd when they MOVE from one cover to the next


I'd MUCH perfer some kind of notice in the HUD I got narc'd.....I know I'm overheating/incoming/running out of/cored......but I dont know I got narc'd? Seriously?