174 replies to this topic

[Rush Maguin]

You know, Harleqwin, it just occurred to me: You may have actually played against the same guys. That's an identical set up - three tables and all that - and the pressure tanks et al. All these years, it never occurred to me that they might have toured that scenario around. GenCon was still huge back then and owning a game store, I'm sure they'd have wanted to be there. Makes perfect sense. Except, I hope they treated you and yours better than they treated us. :/ My showdown with them was the very first Hexcon here in Phoenix, AZ, same year. (The Hexacons only recently went the way of the dodo. More's the pity.) If you had to wade through that gauntlet too, I salute you, man. Good to meet another veteran of Luthien...

[Amarus Cameron]

Harleqwin, on 27 June 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Wonderful story! Reading your epic tale brings back some old memories of mine. I played in the same recreation of that Luthien battle at GenCon in 1991. The large (3 tables) battle area and the 3d terrain, the huge number of miniatures, I believe I even remember the exploding storage tanks.

FASA always had really good drama around the newest release of material for BattleTech. A friend and I were at GenCon 1988 when Hanse Davion and Melissa Steiner got married. There was cake with both Houses symbols on it; and then a BIG announcement...I think they even made it over the loudspeakers; "Mechwarriors report for duty, Davion just promised his wife the Capellan Confederation as a wedding present." And the Fourth Succession war was ON!

The suspense that FASA built up for the introduction of the Clans was incredible! Reading the first Lethal Heritage book and then having to wait for the next was maddening for my little gaming group. In retrospect, all the references to Alexander Kerensky (and the Wolf's Dragoons) throughout the BT source material were nice hints about what was to come.

I would literally sell whatever was needed to be able to go back in time and play at those events. Man I can only imagine how the Kuritans felt as my brothers silenced world after world, the honorable samurai lining up for honor duels and dying just as honorably. At least until bloody Theo stopped duels, the rat.

Edited by Amarus Cameron, 27 June 2012 - 09:08 AM.

[BlackMoore]

I must say, I am glad I took the time to read your story. I admit I do not read walls of text after some people started writing "books" on the forum. But as I scrolled down, the first responce to your post was so complimentary, that I had to go back up and read it for mself. Great story and well written. It's always good to meet someone who has a love for the game. I was worried about how my own sence of honor would be a hindrance to my success in this game. But you give me hope. ~B~ I bow to you my worthy apponant.

[Ubertron X]

To be honest I would not expect different from clanners...

[Karuik]

It's for the battles and stories like this we play the games.

If I had a hat it would be off so hard to you it would probably break orbit.

[LegionZero]

You, Sir, are LENGENDARY!!! I've had my run ins with people like that, one even claimed 200T omni-mechs excisted and had gatling PPC's... I treated and served him like you served your opponents on that day, I'll be looking for you on that battlefield, friend or foe, it'll be an honor to share it with you.

[Rush Maguin]

Amarus Cameron, on 27 June 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

I would literally sell whatever was needed to be able to go back in time and play at those events. Man I can only imagine how the Kuritans felt as my brothers silenced world after world, the honorable samurai lining up for honor duels and dying just as honorably. At least until bloody Theo stopped duels, the rat.

It was pretty intense back then, Amarus. I wish you could have seen it. As it is, the Jags do survive in the Dark Age; some survivors were working for the Republic under the name "The Fidelis" and were cut loose to find their own destiny again. The Jaguars may be back in force when they start releasing 3150 era material for the board game. You may yet get a chance to write your own chapter of Jag history...

BlackMoore, on 27 June 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

I must say, I am glad I took the time to read your story. I admit I do not read walls of text after some people started writing "books" on the forum. But as I scrolled down, the first responce to your post was so complimentary, that I had to go back up and read it for mself. Great story and well written. It's always good to meet someone who has a love for the game. I was worried about how my own sence of honor would be a hindrance to my success in this game. But you give me hope. ~B~ I bow to you my worthy apponant.

Thanks, Black...I know the wall of text is a bit of an effort to read (I'm loathe to digest them too) but I'm glad you did. I'll watch for you on the battlefield.

Ubertron X, on 27 June 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

To be honest I would not expect different from clanners...

Not those clanners, at any rate.

[Bachman]

Well written, you painted quite the picture! Makes me recall my con days. But I will say something is defense of the one guy. I'm protective of my mini's too, but the threat of bodily harm was more implied than expressed with me
I always HATED mechforce. When used as a way to meet new players it was ok, but the rankings.. bad idea.

I wonder if we will ever see a revival of Battletechnology?

[FLAKPANZER]

What a great read. Thanks for posting.

There are too many "host-bully" condescending types in the RPG and tabletop gaming community.
Sadly, I have found in most cases that it tends to be people who have nothing going for them outside
of the game - the one area where they can feel a bit of power - and what do they do? Generally abuse
it to feel superior to someone. Anyone.

They give gaming a bad name, and generally drive young, impressionable people away from the hobby.

I'm glad you guys stuck it out and put a little bit of an ego whooping on them.

[Lord Exalted]

this is why I am and IS pilot

[Lord Exalted]

you have made me wish to start playing battletech TT

[Amarus Cameron]

Rush Maguin, on 27 June 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

It was pretty intense back then, Amarus. I wish you could have seen it. As it is, the Jags do survive in the Dark Age; some survivors were working for the Republic under the name "The Fidelis" and were cut loose to find their own destiny again. The Jaguars may be back in force when they start releasing 3150 era material for the board game. You may yet get a chance to write your own chapter of Jag history...

I appreciate the setiment Rush, but that is not Clan Smoke Jaguar, I read the book "Surrender your Dreams" and though they talk of Paul Moon and the "Black Book" and whatnot they were not clan. In the Dark Age the entire idea of what it means to be clan is lost, and I cannot sit by and say "yes I will work with that, anything to be relavent again" I cannot and will not do it. If that were the case then it would be better I died fighting on Huntress. But again I will say, the Jaguar never dies.

[SparkSovereign]

That's incredible. I know the attitude you had the misfortune of encountering; I've never played BattleTech (it's on the to-do list) but I've seen it a few times in RPGs. A friend asked myself and another friend to assist him with a game master running a D&D game (3.5) that had turned into him power tripping over how badly he could screw over the players. Angels threatening to execute the good-aligned players for accidentally working with demons because the angels didn't warn them and other such nonsense. We asked to join up, and he very confidently told us that he was so good that he could deal with anything we did, and as such allowed all sources with no restrictions. We felt morally obligated to make sure he really believed that, but despite our efforts he still claimed that he could shut down any PCs.

Anyone familiar with D&D can probably see where this is going.

When we first showed up, we joined the party on the other side of a forest from a town where devils were ostensibly trying to summon a pit fiend. Us being good-aligned 10th level characters, we couldn't have that. The DM assured us that we'd get lost "like seven times" on our way through the massive forest. It was at that point that we offered the party room and board on the castle we'd built atop our flying whale. As it turns out, mundane items and animal training are damned cheap. So cheap, in fact, that once we got there and weaved through his illusion shenanigans, I suggested we drop 10 gold worth of firewood on the devil hideout. 10 gold of firewood is 20,000 pounds, because firewood is cheap. We drop it like bombs from the whale, and the otherwise invulnerable devils (meant for much higher level parties) die horribly.

Despite his best efforts to try and enforce NPCs that were superior to us in every way (he even used the words "superior in every way" a few times and wrote initiative values as "god plot"), I spent my time convincing angels that they needed to attend lectures on how to be good guys, and my friend created sequentially more ridiculous mundane toys from things like your fuel tanks. After the DM disbanded the campaign, the other players thanked us for showing them that you could have fun with the game, rather than just getting stomped on by someone who wanted an ego boost.

--

As you learned, creativity and spirit can defeat arrogance and power, no matter the odds. It's an important lesson for everyone to keep in mind, and lets you have amazing games even when you're put into bad situations.

Edited by SparkSovereign, 27 June 2012 - 10:23 AM.

[Donovan Jenks]

Excellent story, your passion came through and I had chills at several parts of your tale. That my friend is why we game! To be able to spin a tale like that and have it burned into your mind for two decades. Battletech was the catalyst and the "Bully-Hosts" became a bigger adversary to you than the mechs your were fighting.

I worked at a hobby shop for 3 years and was paid to teach and play and run competitions. Battletech was my specialty so I had my fair share of rules-lawyers and point-mongers from Mechforce. These gaming bullys are present in all games I have ever played but it seems like there are attracted to painted minitures as there is a higher concentration of them in those games. If you think battletech is bad with bully-laywers you should try gaming with some history buffs and recreate some Nepoleonic or World War II battles, one game came to blows!

[Rush Maguin]

Bachman, on 27 June 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

Well written, you painted quite the picture! Makes me recall my con days. But I will say something is defense of the one guy. I'm protective of my mini's too, but the threat of bodily harm was more implied than expressed with me
I always HATED mechforce. When used as a way to meet new players it was ok, but the rankings.. bad idea.

I wonder if we will ever see a revival of Battletechnology?

Well, being defensive of your miniatures is one thing, but going -that- far about it was a bit much! And I had brought my own, after all.

FLAKPANZER, on 27 June 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

What a great read. Thanks for posting.

There are too many "host-bully" condescending types in the RPG and tabletop gaming community.
Sadly, I have found in most cases that it tends to be people who have nothing going for them outside
of the game - the one area where they can feel a bit of power - and what do they do? Generally abuse
it to feel superior to someone. Anyone.

They give gaming a bad name, and generally drive young, impressionable people away from the hobby.

I'm glad you guys stuck it out and put a little bit of an ego whooping on them.

The only thing worse than driving those young'ns from the hobby is teach them that -this is how you game.- I've seen young players taught all the wrong habits about gaming from people who consider themselves the Great Masters of _________ (fill in the blank) and that all of their rude behavior is somehow justified. Then again, if they're still involved in the game, there's hope to learn 'em back to something more constructive.

Lord Exalted, on 27 June 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

this is why I am and IS pilot

You and I both. The clans can be hard to beat, but not impossible.

Lord Exalted, on 27 June 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

you have made me wish to start playing battletech TT

Start! Get that amazing boxed set they just cut. Dollar for dollar that's the best starter set I've seen, for Battletech or elsewhere (you even get a poster sized map of the INner Sphere, circa 3067). With that and Technical Readout: 3025, you could play for two years straight all the time and never get board. (We did in high school, pre-Clan). Or look up a local game. The sourcebooks have a production quality now almost unheard of in the old days, too. It's a grand time to be a B.T. fan.

Amarus Cameron, on 27 June 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

I appreciate the setiment Rush, but that is not Clan Smoke Jaguar, I read the book "Surrender your Dreams" and though they talk of Paul Moon and the "Black Book" and whatnot they were not clan. In the Dark Age the entire idea of what it means to be clan is lost, and I cannot sit by and say "yes I will work with that, anything to be relavent again" I cannot and will not do it. If that were the case then it would be better I died fighting on Huntress. But again I will say, the Jaguar never dies.

You do have a point there, Amarus. FYI, I was a Smoke Jaguar myself until they were annihilated. I loved playing the villain. After that I went Jade Falcon but I was a Jag at heart for years.

SparkSovereign, on 27 June 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

That's incredible. I know the attitude you had the misfortune of encountering; I've never played BattleTech (it's on the to-do list) but I've seen it a few times in RPGs. A friend asked myself and another friend to assist him with a game master running a D&D game (3.5) that had turned into him power tripping over how badly he could screw over the players. Angels threatening to execute the good-aligned players for accidentally working with demons because the angels didn't warn them and other such nonsense. We asked to join up, and he very confidently told us that he was so good that he could deal with anything we did, and as such allowed all sources with no restrictions. We felt morally obligated to make sure he really believed that, but despite our efforts he still claimed that he could shut down any PCs.

Anyone familiar with D&D can probably see where this is going.

When we first showed up, we joined the party on the other side of a forest from a town where devils were ostensibly trying to summon a pit fiend. Us being good-aligned 10th level characters, we couldn't have that. The DM assured us that we'd get lost "like seven times" on our way through the massive forest. It was at that point that we offered the party room and board on the castle we'd built atop our flying whale. As it turns out, mundane items and animal training are damned cheap. So cheap, in fact, that once we got there and weaved through his illusion shenanigans, I suggested we drop 10 gold worth of firewood on the devil hideout. 10 gold of firewood is 20,000 pounds, because firewood is cheap. We drop it like bombs from the whale, and the otherwise invulnerable devils (meant for much higher level parties) die horribly.

Despite his best efforts to try and enforce NPCs that were superior to us in every way (he even used the words "superior in every way" a few times and wrote initiative values as "god plot"), I spent my time convincing angels that they needed to attend lectures on how to be good guys, and my friend created sequentially more ridiculous mundane toys from things like your fuel tanks. After the DM disbanded the campaign, the other players thanked us for showing them that you could have fun with the game, rather than just getting stomped on by someone who wanted an ego boost.

--

As you learned, creativity and spirit can defeat arrogance and power, no matter the odds. It's an important lesson for everyone to keep in mind, and lets you have amazing games even when you're put into bad situations.

That is just fantastic. Maybe I'm just biased because I like seeing people gaming for the unhealthiest of reasons put in their place. If it's a power trip, an ego play or something to that end, to Blake's loins with them. Job very well done there, good sir. And the best thing us, the other players got the point too.

Donovan Jenks, on 27 June 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

Excellent story, your passion came through and I had chills at several parts of your tale. That my friend is why we game! To be able to spin a tale like that and have it burned into your mind for two decades. Battletech was the catalyst and the "Bully-Hosts" became a bigger adversary to you than the mechs your were fighting.

I worked at a hobby shop for 3 years and was paid to teach and play and run competitions. Battletech was my specialty so I had my fair share of rules-lawyers and point-mongers from Mechforce. These gaming bullys are present in all games I have ever played but it seems like there are attracted to painted minitures as there is a higher concentration of them in those games. If you think battletech is bad with bully-laywers you should try gaming with some history buffs and recreate some Nepoleonic or World War II battles, one game came to blows!

Yeah, what happened to the game being -fun-? I had gone to that con expecting a brothers in arms, we're all Battletech players here kind of vibe. Didn't find it the way I imagined I would but made up for lost time. The best thing about BT is you CAN be outgunned, even outnumbered by the other force, but you can NEVER tell what's going to happen next. It's edge of your seat every time. Never give up until the last shot is fired.

Footnote here, told my ex (who I taught to play back in 99 at her request! What a doll) about posting this story and she asked me if I'd ever rematch these guys. It would be quite the grudge match, I admit. I certainly couldn't expect the same standard of good behavior and common courtesy they lacked before.

I've had a plan for it, though, as far back as 1999 or 2000 (her era in the game). If it ever did come up as a rematch, I'd have some input on the scenario. It would be a fair play no matter what. Clan versus IS is fine, or Clan vs Clan or IS vs IS, no issue. The game would have objectives, like claim the hospital and media buildings on the map with infantry (so we can get some good infantry fighting going on) and scanning enemy structures with recon mechs and the like. Something objective based. I'd want a third party ref agreed to by both parties to be impartial about the rules. Naturally we would do this at a convention.

The kicker is, I'd make everyone chip in, say, ten bucks each to play. All of that money, every cent, goes into a money order (not a check or something, a money order) made out to the Foundation for Missing and Exploited Children or some other worthy charity. We could even solicit donations from people passing by and include that in the final tally as the scenario played out. We'd game ourselves hard and hopefully pull another win for the good guys, but if the Bully-Hosts did win and had to gloat about it, we'd have the subtle revenge of knowing that they had to pay off a good charity to do it at all. That way, everybody wins, really.

Still, that never materialized. Probably for the better. I don't know that they'd do anything but make that entire game hall miserable.

[FLAKPANZER]

Rush, it looks like you and I are close to the same age. I started playing Battletech 25 years ago,
but only had a small group of friends that played, and we kind of stayed insulated from the convention
scene and exposure (through Battletech) to jackasses like you described in your post.*

I have recently started playing tabletop again with a group of 5 friends, and it has been a blast. Do you
ever play on MegaMek? I just downloaded it with the hopes of playing in a campaign with a referee. If
that is something you would be interested in, let me know.

*Though we did find it in the RPG community.

[JackCrow]

I started playing this winter. We have one rules lawyer in the little group we formed. I swear god to he watches each of us mark off armor points.

Anyway, it's a great game, I even have fun when my side loses.

[FireNova]

Amarus Cameron, on 27 June 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

I appreciate the setiment Rush, but that is not Clan Smoke Jaguar, I read the book "Surrender your Dreams" and though they talk of Paul Moon and the "Black Book" and whatnot they were not clan. In the Dark Age the entire idea of what it means to be clan is lost, and I cannot sit by and say "yes I will work with that, anything to be relavent again" I cannot and will not do it. If that were the case then it would be better I died fighting on Huntress. But again I will say, the Jaguar never dies.

Whos to say that the now released Fidelis cannot re-embrace their heritage Amarus? Are you serious in saying that despite reading about their history that they will REFUSE to accept who they are?



On another note upon reading all of your story Rush I truly hope this has not colored your thinking into believing that ALL Jaguar players are complete ********. Its bad enough that the likes of Comstar and its media machine juggernaut have fooled enough of the people enough of the time, but when jerks like the ones you described get involved in any game....everyones enjoyment of the game suffers. Hell, if I had been there as a Jaguar player back then....damn...I probably would have quit in protest as that kind of attitude is BS and only props up the "see we told you so" SJ haters' views out there.

However since you seem to have a fair and balanced mind to all of this I salute you with great respect for not falling prey to the zombification that the media can have on the common person these days. Its also quite sad that cheaters AND those who lie get more rewarded in this day and age and can get away with the most outrageous BS that can be seen.

Although I learned about and tried to get involved with BT in 1998, I could never really master the board game that well and relied on the video games more often. Course about that time I learned that CSJ was being "written off" but something deep down inside of me felt that the Jaguars were not completely gone. I played a few of the Age of Destruction board games at a hobby shop in Maryland but the game fell apart soon after that. Republic was my faction of choice for obvious reasons but hopefully there will be a time where I can have my turn at being a part of the BT experience and play a revived Jaguar faction post Fortress Republic/Dark Age era in some official board game events. Just reading your story alone....I can only imagine how epic it must have been....

See you on the battlefield when the Clans arrive! (And hopefully the BT/MW community being more fair in their opinions of the Jaguars as a whole. My opinion might be in the minority here, but hey, I think there is a place for all kinds of people in the BattleTech Universe. After all, at the end of the day, this is a game and we are all here to have fun.)

[Rush Maguin]

FLAKPANZER, on 27 June 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Rush, it looks like you and I are close to the same age. I started playing Battletech 25 years ago,
but only had a small group of friends that played, and we kind of stayed insulated from the convention
scene and exposure (through Battletech) to jackasses like you described in your post.*

I have recently started playing tabletop again with a group of 5 friends, and it has been a blast. Do you
ever play on MegaMek? I just downloaded it with the hopes of playing in a campaign with a referee. If
that is something you would be interested in, let me know.

*Though we did find it in the RPG community.

I've heard of Megamek but I've never been able to get it to work right. :/ The bloody thing seems counter-intuitive to me but I'm sure I'd get a kick out of it if I could use it right. Meanwhile, have you seen MW Tactics yet? If not, this is big news:

http://mwtactics.com/

JackCrow, on 27 June 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

I started playing this winter. We have one rules lawyer in the little group we formed. I swear god to he watches each of us mark off armor points.

Anyway, it's a great game, I even have fun when my side loses.

I guess there's one bad apple in every dropship. :/ Maybe you guys can coach him into relaxing a little.

FireNova, on 27 June 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Whos to say that the now released Fidelis cannot re-embrace their heritage Amarus? Are you serious in saying that despite reading about their history that they will REFUSE to accept who they are?



On another note upon reading all of your story Rush I truly hope this has not colored your thinking into believing that ALL Jaguar players are complete ********. Its bad enough that the likes of Comstar and its media machine juggernaut have fooled enough of the people enough of the time, but when jerks like the ones you described get involved in any game....everyones enjoyment of the game suffers. Hell, if I had been there as a Jaguar player back then....damn...I probably would have quit in protest as that kind of attitude is BS and only props up the "see we told you so" SJ haters' views out there.

However since you seem to have a fair and balanced mind to all of this I salute you with great respect for not falling prey to the zombification that the media can have on the common person these days. Its also quite sad that cheaters AND those who lie get more rewarded in this day and age and can get away with the most outrageous BS that can be seen.

Although I learned about and tried to get involved with BT in 1998, I could never really master the board game that well and relied on the video games more often. Course about that time I learned that CSJ was being "written off" but something deep down inside of me felt that the Jaguars were not completely gone. I played a few of the Age of Destruction board games at a hobby shop in Maryland but the game fell apart soon after that. Republic was my faction of choice for obvious reasons but hopefully there will be a time where I can have my turn at being a part of the BT experience and play a revived Jaguar faction post Fortress Republic/Dark Age era in some official board game events. Just reading your story alone....I can only imagine how epic it must have been....

See you on the battlefield when the Clans arrive! (And hopefully the BT/MW community being more fair in their opinions of the Jaguars as a whole. My opinion might be in the minority here, but hey, I think there is a place for all kinds of people in the BattleTech Universe. After all, at the end of the day, this is a game and we are all here to have fun.)

As I stated to someone above, I actually -was- Smoke Jaguar as my Clan affiliation until they were annihilated, then switched over to Jade Falcon. And the Jags -did- slaughter all of these people on Turtle Bay. That was a main sticking point at the Whitting Conference, after all...

[Wrayeth]

That story is seriously epic. I can't imagine how gratifying it must've been to pull that off and know that you turned a situation that was meant to be hopeless into what was, by all measures I would care to use, a win.

One thing bothers me a bit, though. You see, I live in the Phoenix area and play a monthly Battletech campaign game whose players range in age from 15 through 60-something, and some of the older players used to own a game store.

I don't think these are the people in question, thankfully, as I haven't seen anything even slightly unsportsmanlike out of them.