145 replies to this topic

[Brohymm]

I like how everyone has their tactics for winning on a game they haven't played yet.

Now for the atlas vs whatever that's been going on, Skill rules all and may the best pilot win.

Now as for me I did the founders package and i chose a atlas for the point that i want one of everything eventually and i would rather have the most expensive thing on my list marked off. When the game goes live i'm going to pick a medium for my next mech to use. Mediums after all, are the jack of all trades.

At the end of the day choose what you like and have fun.

[Noth]

PANZERBUNNY, on 25 June 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

I would imagine ANY mech is having a bad day if they let the opponent get behind them.

It seems the Hunchie advocates like to assume the Hunch is ALREADY behind the Atlas for the start of this discussion.

Let's not forget there are plenty of walls and cliffs to back up against to void any sort of back yard shenanigans and sneaky acts of AC 20 rear love.

Under most circumstances 1V1, you start in your base, Atlas starts in his.....the smaller mech has QUITE an uphill battle against them. An semi responsible assault pilot won't be wading out into a map with no idea where his opponent is.

Funny how one person seeing a Hunchie going toe to toe with an Atlas and winning makes it a sure thing.

I would imagine that most people attempting the controls of this game off the bat have a difficult time.

Atlas may be slow, but it can afford to take the hits that other mechs find crippling.......and the Atlas can of course charge you and knock you down. I wouldn't get too close unless you plan on vanishing after taking your shots. It's not saying the atlus doesn't have an advantage. It is saying that it isn't a given win just because of that advantage.

It comes from the player testimonies and understanding the purpose of role warfare that they are pushing. Role warfare goes out the window if one mech can become alpha just because it's bigger.

Edited by Noth, 25 June 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[Solarisjock]

I am by no means saying the HBK will win every round, my first post said 50/50 it just seemed like quite a few people were selling the HBK short. if the Atlas driver uses terrain to cover his back, the HBK better have a masochistic pilot in the cockpit.... and I see the advantage going more to the medium on a map with room to maneuver.

[Fl3tcher]

Just a last note on the Atlas. . the Atlas in MW:O is the AS7-D, the standard 3025 Succession Wars era unit, I'm TT it has 4 medium lasers, the 2 in the torso face to the rear. . Why? because it can't turn around fast enough to bring it's weapons to bear against a faster more agile opponent that's behind it.

If you watch the the Assault Mech Developer Breakdown Vid, you'll see the Devs Atlas getting out turned by a Catapult K2, he ends up chasing after it.

*Edited* I forgot to mention that all 4 medium laser in the MW:O AS7-D face forward

Edited by Fl3tcher, 25 June 2012 - 01:44 PM.

[Noth]

Fl3tcher, on 25 June 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

Just a last note on the Atlas. . the Atlas in MW:O is the AS7-D, the standard 3025 Succession Wars era unit, I'm TT it has 4 medium lasers, the 2 in the torso face to the rear. . Why? because it can't turn around fast enough to bring it's weapons to bear against a faster more agile opponent that's behind it.

If you watch the the Assault Mech Developer Breakdown Vid, you'll see the Devs Atlas getting out turned by a Catapult K2, he ends up chasing after it.

*Edited* I forgot to mention that all 4 medium laser in the MW:O AS7-D face forward

In MWO it doesn't have rear facing weapons.

[Koenig]

Noth, on 25 June 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

It comes from the player testimonies and understanding the purpose of role warfare that they are pushing. Role warfare goes out the window if one mech can become alpha just because it's bigger.

Role warfare goes out the window if a vastly heavier and more equiped mech cannot squash a much smaller one. That is the freaking role of the atlas. Its a bug squasher. Which is why the hunch better have friends along.

[Papertarget]

The people on here that make the statements of a Jenner being able to take an Atlas toe 2 toe, or even be able to do so with a good chance of doing so, are mainly using poetic license. It CAN happen from everything that the devs and what we have been given show, but it isn't going to be the norm. Each mech will have a role they will play. The Jenner will be able to scout and keep an eye on the Atlas, giving the Catapult a chance to rain fire and devastation to the Atlas, while maybe taking pot shots adding to the Atlas's "bad day". If a single Jenner tried to take on an atlas, they are likely to be destroyed while the Atlas is maybe a little singed and burnt. The main thing in this game though, is that each mech has it's own place in the battle. Also, each mech CAN cause damage to any other mech. There are no laser hits that will not cause some damage. Even a Hunchie and an Atlas match-up will be more in favor of the Atlas winning, and not an even fight. But it is the place of the mediums to support, not assault. The mediums support the lights for scouting purposes. The Mediums also support the assaults by protecting their flanks. The Heavies are support for the Assaults in much the same manner, but they can also assume the assault role with the Medium protecting their flanks.

If you only have Atlases, you limit your own support. It DOES make it more likely you will lose, because the other team will have the scouts and long range support that the Atlas crew will lack. This brings the balance in that will make an effective team, or a group that can be defeated in detail.

[Koenig]

Solarisjock, on 25 June 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

I am by no means saying the HBK will win every round, my first post said 50/50 it just seemed like quite a few people were selling the HBK short. if the Atlas driver uses terrain to cover his back, the HBK better have a masochistic pilot in the cockpit.... and I see the advantage going more to the medium on a map with room to maneuver.

50/50 is about as absurd as saying hunch wins every round.

[DarkBazerker]

ScientificMethod, on 25 June 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

At least in this game the unlocks make sense. Your pilot is getting experience as a pilot and the unlocks are designed to show that (again, showing the games backing in TT rules). As for the exp in the mechs, I believe it's just your pilot gaining more experience with the specific mech, so again, the unlocks make sense and give the players something to work for.


As for the people that think a hunchback vs. atlas is an uneven fight? Of course it is, if all variables are equal (unless the hunchback outmaneuvers the atlas for an AC20 or two to the back armor). However, the hunchback is only 50tons to the atlas' 100. With limited drop weights I'd see that fight ending up as two hunchbacks vs. atlas... and anyone that would want to pilot that atlas is quite cocky.

Only two hunchbacks? pft I got this hehe

[Noth]

Koenig, on 25 June 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

Role warfare goes out the window if a vastly heavier and more equiped mech cannot squash a much smaller one. That is the freaking role of the atlas. Its a bug squasher. Which is why the hunch better have friends along.

Atlus is meant to be great in direct assaults. It needs support from being outflanked by smaller faster mechs that can get to it's back (dev walkthrough showed the atlus turning being unable to keep up with a heavy mech). It should not win just because it is bigger.

[Waverider]

I think that everybody could start with the four basic Mechs. The founders only have the c-bills and xp boost as a start difference. You will need to know your role testing them. I think it would be fare, with time everyone can customize and/or buy other Mechs and focus the investing on the Mechs and equipment of that class.

Yes, will have sometimes some noobs acting leroy with Atlas and the will learn only how to die fast.

And who knows what to do will have some cheap fun.

[Vosgedzam]

All I get from this Koening, NO NO NO! No one can touch my Atlas! It's invulnerable! No matter what I ll always win all the time! Herp derp.

[Koenig]

Noth, on 25 June 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

Atlus is meant to be great in direct assaults. It needs support from being outflanked by smaller faster mechs that can get to it's back (dev walkthrough showed the atlus turning being unable to keep up with a heavy mech). It should not win just because it is bigger.

Look you keep referrencing a video that none of us can go watch. Who are the pilots in this video? This is a pretty weak piece of evidence to bring to an argument that would otherwise be over very quickly. In every BT/MW game I have ever played for the past 20 years, an atlas vs a hunch is a joke fight. You would get your *** laughed out of the nerd convention if you even suggested that this was fair.

Now MWO might be a very different game than anything over the past 20 years. Indeed, this is why I have not purchased founder pack. But I will tell you this, if they made a game where a hunch can stand up to an atlas, all other things being equal, this game is mech warrior in title only.

[Project_Mercy]

The hunchback is exactly the problem. That's why I'm waiting to see how PGI figures it out.

The people who seem to be arguing with "Gameplay trumps Canon". It's not a gameplay vs canon issue. It's completely a gameplay issue. Canon is just canon because that's how they balanced gameplay.

If a hunchback is competitive with an atlas in a slug fest (baring crafty piloting), that means that "things" have been done to the hunchback or the atlas to make them equal. That means that either the atlas is given a penalty for BEING an assault. Or the Hunchback is given a bonus for BEING a medium and/or for being lighter.

If this bonus is purely a attack/defense or medium-based bonus, that means the faster knife-fighting mechs have this bonus, which means their already inherent bonuses for speed and such just compound. It means that that these mechs were given artificial incentive to "equalize" them out. So, is there going to be an artificial speed increase for the assaults to make up for THEIR penalties vs the others? If not, why not? And if so, what then becomes the differences between them?

The other option is there's HBK-specific bonuses to the chassis, and that the AS7 doesn't have them. Why would anyone EVER get in an assault?

Assaults have to be viable exactly as they are. Massive death machines for anyone who gets in their way. If combat against a unit with similar weapon attacks, and without any external support, is equalized in any way, you destroy gameplay and homogonize the units. At which point this turns into, AT BEST Tribes (Where units are homogonized into "fast, average, slow speeds"), and at worst, Modern Warfare, where everyone's running basically the same unit with slight weapon variations.

Edited by Wraeththix Constantine, 25 June 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[Koenig]

Vosgedzam, on 25 June 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

All I get from this Koening, NO NO NO! No one can touch my Atlas! It's invulnerable! No matter what I ll always win all the time! Herp derp.

Well, thats because you're an *****.

[Noth]

Wraeththix Constantine, on 25 June 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

The hunchback is exactly the problem. That's why I'm waiting to see how PGI figures it out.

The people who seem to be arguing with "Gameplay trumps Canon". It's not a gameplay vs canon issue. It's completely a gameplay issue. Canon is just canon because that's how they balanced gameplay.

If a hunchback is competitive with an atlas in a slug fest (baring crafty piloting), that means that "things" have been done to the hunchback or the atlas to make them equal. That means that either the atlas is given a penalty for BEING an assault. Or the Hunchback is given a bonus for BEING a medium and/or for being lighter.

If this bonus is purely a attack/defense or medium-based bonus, that means the faster knife-fighting mechs have this bonus, which means their already inherent bonuses for speed and such just compound. It means that that these mechs were given artificial incentive to "equalize" them out. So, is there going to be an artificial speed increase for the assaults to make up for THEIR penalties vs the others? If not, why not? And if so, what then becomes the differences between them?

The other option is there's HBK-specific bonuses to the chassis, and that the AS7 doesn't have them. Why would anyone EVER get in an assault?

Assaults have to be viable exactly as they are. Massive death machines for anyone who gets in their way. If combat against a unit with similar weapon attacks, and without any external support, is equalized in any way, you destroy gameplay and homogonize the units. At which point this turns into, AT BEST Tribes (Where units are homogonized into "fast, average, slow speeds"), and at worst, Modern Warfare, where everyone's running basically the same unit with slight weapon variations.

Dev video of assaults you see how a hunch can go against an atlus. It turn slower than a Catapult moves (same speed that the hunch moves). Torso traverse and leg traverse speeds aren't detailed in TT, thus are stats that can be fudged with easily to create advantages and disadvantages

Edited by Noth, 25 June 2012 - 02:03 PM.

[Vosgedzam]

Koenig, on 25 June 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Well, thats because you're an *****.

Didn't know you are that sensitive. Turns in your manhood membership card please.

[Koenig]

Vosgedzam, on 25 June 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Didn't know you are that sensitive. Turns in your manhood membership card please.

Just prefer rational discussion over insanity. I feel like I'm visiting the flat earth society forums here.

[Solarisjock]

to me, personally, Role Warfare becomes even more important if the heavier mech cannot kill the smaller mech instantly, if the light mech that gets behind the assault, well that is why you have the longer ranged medium/heavy in the assault lance that hangs back to cover that issue. suddenly that light has to go tangle with the support mech and can no longer provide target info for the indirect fire on the advancing assaults.

as a note, i believe that if the HBK pilots want to stand in front of the Atlas and **** on its feet, it should get absolutely creamed.

Edited by Solarisjock, 25 June 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Project_Mercy]

Noth, on 25 June 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Dev video of assaults you see how a hunch can go against an atlus. It turn clower than a Catapult moves (same speed that the hunch moves).

I'm sorry, but the dev videos are basically useless in regards to balance. You have no idea what's going on with those pilots. It's just as likely the guy on the other side is told to not kill the OP, or the other person is also at the demo learning the controls. Combined with the fact that everytime someone analyzes a video too closely, the devs come in and say "oh, that's not here anymore" or what have you.


If you put a duel between a 4/6 Mech with an extra SL vs a 3/5 mech with an extra LRM-20, 2 MLs, SRM-6, and a crap ton more armor and some extra HS, and they're going to go 50/50 given equal pilots? Your system is broken, becuase you're artificially buffing the first guy's penalty (low armor, less weapons) , while not buffing the 2nd guy's penalty (buffing his speed).

And if you do homogenize everyone's penalties, then mechs primarily turn into vanity items.