33 replies to this topic

[Widowmaker1981]

There is a glaring inconstancy in Jumpjet thrust values that effectively removes the Highlander mech from the game, and i think this needs to be fixed. The current jump jet thrust values for the 5 classes are below:

Class I - 90t to 200t mechs, 2t per jet, thrust 33, thrust per ton 16.5
Class II – 80t to 90t mechs, 1t per jet, thrust 68, thrust per ton 68
Class III – 60t to 80t mechs, 1t per jet, thrust 45, thrust per ton 45
Class IV – 40t to 60t mechs, 0.5t per jet, thrust 45, thrust per ton 90
Class V – 20t to 40t mechs, 0.5t per jet, thrust 37, thrust per ton 74

I don’t mind the lighter jets for lights and mediums being more powerful, it gives those lighter classes an edge they need. Fine. What I mind is the ridiculous outlier on the class 1 Jets, currently only used by the Highlander, but this will affect any other 90+ ton jump capable mechs. Why are they producing HALF the thrust of the Class 2 Jets, while weighing twice as much? This makes literally no sense, it seems to be saying 90ton mechs shouldn’t be able to jump, at all, so we will make their jets utterly useless. The Highlanders hardpoints are ok, but not amazing, and its engine cap is low. Its saving grace WAS its ability to jump, but its now not even worth the 2 tons to equip 1 jet, and even if a Heavy Metal spent the 10!! Tons required to get 5/5 jets, a victor would STILL out thrust it with 3 tons worth of jets, and there is now literally no point to choose a HGN over a BNC, since the BNC has better hardpoints and engine caps. RIDICULOUS, fix it please.

I never poptarted, and you can add reticule shake on the way down, or hell even disable weapons in the air for all I care.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 16 October 2014 - 04:20 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Why the hell is there 5 types of JJs?

There are only 3 on TT.

The Jets are not more powerful for lighter Mechs, you just need smaller jets to lift smaller Mechs. Why in the world is It so difficult to use a simple system?

[Widowmaker1981]

I know right.. its also a bit silly that a 75 ton heavy gets considerably less jumping ability than an 80 ton assault for the same weight in jets, but thats probably to keep WoodPuppys in check, so oh well i guess..

Also by more powerful i was referring to thrust provided per ton spent, and i assume (though i dont know this) that jumping ability is a simple equation involving total thrust divided by mech weight

My main issue is that equipping jump jets on highlanders costs a lot of tonnage, and is comparably useful to strapping a slightly flatulent squirrel to each leg

Edit: Keeping 5 classes, id have thrust values a bit like this (actual values could vary, since all jets suck a bit right now)

Class I: 79 thrust
Class II: 68 thrust
Class III: 56 thrust
Class IV: 45 thrust
Class V: 37 thrust

Edit 2: for comparisons sake, in my opinion a 45t Blackjack equipping 2 tons of jumpjets should get 2x the jumping ability of a 90t HGN equipping 2 tons of jets. It currently gets ~11 times the jumping ability.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 16 October 2014 - 04:24 AM.

[SgtMagor]

hope the new jump jet quirks will stop the hover highlander and turn it back into the DFA death machine its supposed to be.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 October 2014 - 03:32 AM, said:

There is a glaring inconstancy in Jumpjet thrust values that effectively removes the Highlander mech from the game, and i think this needs to be fixed. The current jump jet thrust values for the 5 classes are below:

Class I - 90t to 200t mechs, 2t per jet, thrust 33, thrust per ton 16.5
Class II – 80t to 90t mechs, 1t per jet, thrust 68, thrust per ton 68
Class III – 60t to 80t mechs, 1t per jet, thrust 45, thrust per ton 45
Class IV – 40t to 60t mechs, 0.5t per jet, thrust 45, thrust per ton 90
Class V – 20t to 40t mechs, 0.5t per jet, thrust 37, thrust per ton 74

I don’t mind the lighter jets for lights and mediums being more powerful, it gives those lighter classes an edge they need. Fine. What I mind is the ridiculous outlier on the class 1 Jets, currently only used by the Highlander, but this will affect any other 90+ ton jump capable mechs. Why are they producing HALF the thrust of the Class 2 Jets, while weighing twice as much? This makes literally no sense, it seems to be saying 90ton mechs shouldn’t be able to jump, at all, so we will make their jets utterly useless. The Highlanders hardpoints are ok, but not amazing, and its engine cap is low. Its saving grace WAS its ability to jump, but its now not even worth the 2 tons to equip 1 jet, and even if a Heavy Metal spent the 10!! Tons required to get 5/5 jets, a victor would STILL out thrust it with 3 tons worth of jets, and there is now literally no point to choose a HGN over a BNC, since the BNC has better hardpoints and engine caps. RIDICULOUS, fix it please.

I never poptarted, and you can add reticule shake on the way down, or hell even disable weapons in the air for all I care.

None of this make sense. For example why are class 3 only 45 thrust vs Class 2 at 68? All this did was neuter my QKD's jump capability and lets face it, at 60 tons it is more of a medium that is already stuck with 1 ton jump, than as an actual heavy.

Also I am still massively upset how the Class I JJ nerf effects my Heavy Metal. I paid 6750 MC specifically because it could mount 5 JJs while allowed it to have near the same jump capability as a medium mech, honest that was its defining feature.

At the very least I want my 6750 MC back to spend on something else if they aren't going to give me my HM jump mobility back.

[Livewyr]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 October 2014 - 03:39 AM, said:

Why the hell is there 5 types of JJs?

There are only 3 on TT.

The Jets are not more powerful for lighter Mechs, you just need smaller jets to lift smaller Mechs. Why in the world is It so difficult to use a simple system?

I imagine it is to enhance the mobility of lights (beyond just having crazy speed)

[Training Instructor]

Currently equipping one jj on a highlander can be useful for hopping over invisible obstacles, or taking bigger drops without incurring damage, but equipping more than that is just gimping yourself.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 October 2014 - 03:39 AM, said:

Why the hell is there 5 types of JJs?

There are only 3 on TT.

The Jets are not more powerful for lighter Mechs, you just need smaller jets to lift smaller Mechs. Why in the world is It so difficult to use a simple system?

Oh the system is great.... or the idea behind.
With 5 class jumpjets and fixed thrust values - the result means a spider with 5 jump jets is capable of jumping further as a fire starter with 5 jump jets - same thrust but if it is made right (and i hope it is) more mass for the same amount of thrust means reduced jump range.

The problem is - as widow show it - that the values for Class 3 and Class 1 are complete off. (OK when i looked for the first time - the jets for 2 and 1 were complete off - so thats an improvement.

Anyhow - the Class 4 jets should not generate more thrust as the Class 3 jets - simple because of the different weight - of the jets - wouldn't make sense to make heavy duty thrusters when they don't produce more thrust right?

After another round looking - with 5 classes - a 40t future jump capable Mech would be able to generate more thrust per ton of weight as a 35t Mech.

Can't say at the moment if it is a good idea or a bad - on the good side it gives Mechs at the lower end of a class the more power per wasted jump jet.
On the other hand jump jets for all Mechs until 55t weight the same - why should a Jump Jet for a 40t Mech generate more thrust?

So maybe we should really reduce the number of Jump Jet classes back to 3 - and have a decreasing thrust value per ton of Mech - with a reset at each class.
For example a 55t Mech would have 1.2 thrust per ton and jump jet - while a quickdraw may have 1.8 thrust per ton and jump jet. Same for 85 vs 90t Mechs. Anyhow a 70t heavy should not have more thrust per ton as a 55t Mech - same for the 100t vs the 80t mech

[TexAce]

lol at those numbers

Just ask yourself this, Paul: In our current situation, with how the weapons are adjusted now, why is Poptarting bad?

I hated poptarting back when PPCs were king, right now...if a Highlander could poptart and shoot a 2PPC and an AC5 or AC10 at me, it wouldn't be anything special, since I gotta take care of those Daishis and Mad Cats first, which are dismembering me in seconds.

[TheRealAbray]

Wow I knew the highlander's jets sucked, but looking at the numbers just makes me cry about the fact I bought a Heavy Metal back when they were worth SOMETHING.

The inefficiency of the class 1 jj is unacceptable. PGI, you have said frequently and multiple times that the jj nerf was NOT geared at killing poptarts, so what is the reason for grounding the highlanders so harshly? You guys get killed by them too often or something and have a vengeance? Like others have said, nothing about highlanders is really OP in the sense of hardpoints or speed or survivability. Taking away jj was taking away it's only hope of being worthwhile to take over the other assaults.

[Karl Streiger]

TheRealAbray, on 16 October 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Wow I knew the highlander's jets sucked, but looking at the numbers just makes me cry about the fact I bought a Heavy Metal back when they were worth SOMETHING.

The inefficiency of the class 1 jj is unacceptable. PGI, you have said frequently and multiple times that the jj nerf was NOT geared at killing poptarts, so what is the reason for grounding the highlanders so harshly? You guys get killed by them too often or something and have a vengeance? Like others have said, nothing about highlanders is really OP in the sense of hardpoints or speed or survivability. Taking away jj was taking away it's only hope of being worthwhile to take over the other assaults.

well at least they could keep the vertical thrust values and increase the horizontal thrust values (currently 4 for all mech classes)

[Widowmaker1981]

TheRealAbray, on 16 October 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Wow I knew the highlander's jets sucked, but looking at the numbers just makes me cry about the fact I bought a Heavy Metal back when they were worth SOMETHING.

The inefficiency of the class 1 jj is unacceptable. PGI, you have said frequently and multiple times that the jj nerf was NOT geared at killing poptarts, so what is the reason for grounding the highlanders so harshly? You guys get killed by them too often or something and have a vengeance? Like others have said, nothing about highlanders is really OP in the sense of hardpoints or speed or survivability. Taking away jj was taking away it's only hope of being worthwhile to take over the other assaults.

Yes, exactly this.. BNC vs HGN:

BNC Pros:
More, higher mounted hardpoints
Huge shield arms
5 tons more weight to play with
High engine caps (400 on 2 variants)

HGN Pros:
Can Jump. Except can't actually jump

Why would anyone who isnt dense ever use the HGN? (im using the banshee as a comparison because its closest in tonnage, is also a tallish humanoid with similar hitboxes)

[Karl Streiger]

Widowmaker1981, on 16 October 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

Why would anyone who isnt dense ever use the HGN? (im using the banshee as a comparison because its closest in tonnage, is also a tallish humanoid with similar hitboxes)

Could have a AC 20 and some SRM for more brawling power - but leave the JumpJets at home.

The HM- is a solid assault Mech - not for sniping but for brawling - because of the more mobile arms.

So there are some arguments - but not very good ones

[Cyborne Elemental]

Its thrust model before that final change left the HGN at a fairly comfortable place, it had slow JJ acceleration, but a decent jump height, with a really good fuel capacity for floating your landings.

JJ's on it weren't great, but they weren't crap either.

Then came the last JJ thrust change, and pretty much eliminated the need to equip jets on it what so ever.

With such little thrust per ton, its a complete waste and better spent on weaponry, sadly.

I've already sold all my HGN, since I already have 2 real Atlas parked in my hangar.

Edited by Mister D, 16 October 2014 - 05:26 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 16 October 2014 - 04:48 AM, said:

Oh the system is great.... or the idea behind.
With 5 class jumpjets and fixed thrust values - the result means a spider with 5 jump jets is capable of jumping further as a fire starter with 5 jump jets - same thrust but if it is made right (and i hope it is) more mass for the same amount of thrust means reduced jump range.

Whaich should not be happening. A light with 5 Jump Jets should travel relatively the same distance. Some people just over think thing till they are to complicated.

[Widowmaker1981]

Karl Streiger, on 16 October 2014 - 05:22 AM, said:

Could have a AC 20 and some SRM for more brawling power - but leave the JumpJets at home.

The HM- is a solid assault Mech - not for sniping but for brawling - because of the more mobile arms.

So there are some arguments - but not very good ones

the banshee can take an AC20 too, the arms thing is true but is a bit of a wash since the shield on the banshee. also, if you want an AC20 SRM brawler may i point you in the direction of the victor? better than the HGN in literally every way for that role.

[Karl Streiger]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 October 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

Whaich should not be happening. A light with 5 Jump Jets should travel relatively the same distance. Some people just over think thing till they are to complicated.

That means .....jump jets with its own unique thrust values for every Mech - maybe its a problem with the MechLab (so a coding problem - or at least it was a coding problem.

Although - before the "fall damage" and the "jump heat ramp?" i think i had some arguments why those 5 class system is great... but i can't remember.

Widowmaker1981, on 16 October 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

the banshee can take an AC20 too, the arms thing is true but is a bit of a wash since the shield on the banshee. also, if you want an AC20 SRM brawler may i point you in the direction of the victor? better than the HGN in literally every way for that role.

Yep...i know - but you did ask for reasons... and i tried to find some - hard

Edited by Karl Streiger, 16 October 2014 - 05:30 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Karl Streiger, on 16 October 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:

That means .....jump jets with its own unique thrust values for every Mech - maybe its a problem with the MechLab (so a coding problem - or at least it was a coding problem.

IIRC there are only 3 class of Jump Jets on TT, it's worked perfectly for 30 years... Why can't it work fine here? KISS is a thing (as well as a band)

[Zyllos]

I think there is something players are missing.

Why should the Highlander, with 3 jump jets, have better jump characteristics than any other mech with 3 jump jets? Yes, the Highlander is famous for the DFA attack but it still only jumped 3 hexes in the board game, no different than any other mech.

Also, I am not sure if anyone noticed, but Class I jump jets have almost two (2) times the duration of thrust. I think I know why this was implemented (to help keep the Highlander, and future mechs, from easily poptarting) but in the end, the Highlander gets approximately the same height has the Shadowhawk, with it's 3 jump jets. It just takes longer to reach that height.

I would really like to test out a Class I Jump Jet mech that can equip more than 3 jump jets and compare them to other jump jets. Personally, I think the jump jets are *almost* right where they need to be.

[Widowmaker1981]

Zyllos, on 16 October 2014 - 05:44 AM, said:

I think there is something players are missing.

Why should the Highlander, with 3 jump jets, have better jump characteristics than any other mech with 3 jump jets? Yes, the Highlander is famous for the DFA attack but it still only jumped 3 hexes in the board game, no different than any other mech.

Also, I am not sure if anyone noticed, but Class I jump jets have almost two (2) times the duration of thrust. I think I know why this was implemented (to help keep the Highlander, and future mechs, from easily poptarting) but in the end, the Highlander gets approximately the same height has the Shadowhawk, with it's 3 jump jets. It just takes longer to reach that height.

I would really like to test out a Class I Jump Jet mech that can equip more than 3 jump jets and compare them to other jump jets. Personally, I think the jump jets are *almost* right where they need to be.

It wont. As far as i am aware, Jump ability is a function of total jump jet thrust, divided by total mech weight. Its heavier, so having a bit more thrust than other would actually let it be equal, not better. its currently an order of magnitude worse.

Id have to test the duration thing, i wasnt aware of that, but even if so.. why should it jump SO MUCH slower than the only 10% lighter Victor?

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 16 October 2014 - 06:32 AM.