963 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Action Mac, on 18 October 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

This

No. More like:

THIS

Mercules, on 18 October 2014 - 06:04 PM, said:

Time to point out that PGI did not give hardpoints to early mechs, or really any mechs since, based upon what PGI intended them to run. Instead PGI gave them hardpoints based upon what STOCK loadouts had with a bit of game balance thrown in. The Stock 4G runs a single AC/20. Because it ran a BIG gun PGI decided it then had a lot of "ballistic" space in that location and put in three Ballistic hardpoints. the 4G fresh out of the mech store comes with an AC/20. So... You are wrong. Now go rethink your reasoning after you consider that you are incorrect as to why and how those mechs got the hardpoints they got.




Your mistake is assuming the general populus runs around in Tier 4 & 5 mechs. You are not currently competing against Tier 5 mechs on a regular basis. You are competing against Tier 1-3 mechs with a heavy leaning towards Tier 1. So aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallll those tier 5 mechs that will be getting a sudden boost that you currently are not fighting, are not affecting the current power level of the game because they don't end up in matches very often. So again, you are not losing power because they are gaining power using a few specific builds. Instead you will be at the exact same place but instead of facing Tier 1-2 mechs you will be facing Tier 1-2 mechs and 3-5 mechs that are hopefully nearly Tier 1-2 with their quirks.

Your target was Tier 1-2 mechs with the occasional 3-5 mechs thrown in. Now it will be Tier 1-5 mechs with hopefully the same power level with the occasional 3-5 not using the full potential of their quirks. SAME LEVEL OF PLAY. Nothing changed except PGI increased the number of mechs we can bring to the table and not feel like we are at the low side of the bell curve.

and THIS

ShinobiHunter, on 18 October 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

If you're running a tier 4 or 5 mech now, chances are you're really not that concerned about being the absolute best mech on the field. You're running it for kicks and giggles, and that's not going to change. Also this is just a start, Russ has said they will tweak the quirks as needed.

The Bads are getting more viable, the Top Tier Meta Machines will be all but untouched, thus the overall "power rankings" are not going through some massive seismic shift.

Your 3 AC2 HBK-4G will be just as bad against Tier 1 builds as it has always been..... but with more RT armor and structure protecting those ballistics, and if you find room for Pew Pew, it'll still do that better than now. So actually it is still better, against the bell curve.

Net win.

AND THAT, is the Big Picture.

Sorry, 1453 R, Prosperity and others whom I am forced to disagree with.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 October 2014 - 06:48 PM.

[Mercules]

Action Mac, on 18 October 2014 - 06:26 PM, said:

This

Is still misguided because you are not facing Tier 3-5 mechs on a regular enough basis to have a shift in power. You currently face tier 1-2 mechs on a regular basis. Soon you will be facing tier 1-2 mechs and tier 3-5 mechs making use of their quirks to be hopefully as potent as the tier 1-2 mechs. All that has changed is not the relative level of mechs you will be facing, but what those mechs are.

You don't jump into a match and go, "Gee... all these Commandos running around are going to own me once they get their quirks." you jump into a match and go. "Sure would be cool to see someone running a Commando once in a while."

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mercules, on 18 October 2014 - 06:52 PM, said:

Is still misguided because you are not facing Tier 3-5 mechs on a regular enough basis to have a shift in power. You currently face tier 1-2 mechs on a regular basis. Soon you will be facing tier 1-2 mechs and tier 3-5 mechs making use of their quirks to be hopefully as potent as the tier 1-2 mechs. All that has changed is not the relative level of mechs you will be facing, but what those mechs are.

You don't jump into a match and go, "Gee... all these Commandos running around are going to own me once they get their quirks." you jump into a match and go. "Sure would be cool to see someone running a Commando once in a while."

So long as you are not facing all tier 1 mechs all the time, the relative power level has increased.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 18 October 2014 - 07:01 PM.

[cSand]

Have you guys really been arguing this since the thread started when I was at work on Friday morning?

Edited by cSand, 18 October 2014 - 07:01 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 October 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

So long as you are not facing all tier 1 mechs all the time, the relative power level has increased.

keep my relatives out of this, tyvm.

cSand, on 18 October 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Have you guys really been arguing this since the thread started when I was at work on Friday morning?

It has remained remarkably civil, overall, for MWO forum arguing, though!

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 October 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

keep my relatives out of this, tyvm.

No, you carry the Steiner name, no one likes a Steiner unless your name is Vlad Ward

[Kensaisama]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 October 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

keep my relatives out of this, tyvm.


It has remained remarkably civil, overall, for MWO forum arguing, though!

I can certainly assist in making it uncivil LOL

[cSand]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 October 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

It has remained remarkably civil, overall, for MWO forum arguing, though!

Proof of evolution before our very eyes!

[kosmos1214]

AlexEss, on 17 October 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

So you are ill.informed AND a troll... Good to know.

Bye.

pretty much my thoughts

[Mercules]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 October 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

So long as you are not facing all tier 1 mechs all the time, the relative power level has increased.

Yes, but there are varying amount of increase. In this case the power of mechs you will be facing has not increased enough to offset the benefit of seeing additional mech chassis on the field of battle. The net increase in power will be negligible because the vast majority of what you face currently is Tier 1-2. Tier 2 mechs will get negligible increases and anyone twinking out a tier 3-5 to make extra good use of their bonuses would have most likely been running a Tier 1-2 mech most of the time anyway.

Let's face it. I like Stock Mech Monday, I like Commandos. I was running an Ember because it is only slightly slower, still has arms, and brought a better loadout than the Commandos. I want to run Locusts, but it is very painful to do so. I want to play my Wolverines... but again. When I bring those mechs I feel I should consider apologizing to my teammates. Can I do well in them? Yes, but I often feel it is a harder climb up hill.

So if a guy like me who likes whacky sub-optimal mechs was not playing those Tier 3-5 mechs on a regular basis... who was? The answer is "Not many folks."

So the change in power is negligible and then on top of that using only some of the benefits like extra armor on the mech, secondary boosts instead of main ones, or keeping a weapon/loadout that is already "meta strong". Narrows that marginal gap further.

So people who are already playing at a disadvantage won't be falling even further behind. No.... they will be gaining slightly and able to bring more chassis with some options they can exploit to make their off-beat builds. I am looking forward to tweaking a few mechs to see what I can work up from the quirks that isn't obvious at first glance.

Edited by Mercules, 18 October 2014 - 08:38 PM.

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

I cant wait 4 the quirks! At this point its all that can save the game for me and A LOT of light only pilots I know.

Edited by Funkadelic Mayhem, 18 October 2014 - 08:40 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mercules, on 18 October 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

Yes, but there are varying amount of increase. In this case the power of mechs you will be facing has not increased enough to offset the benefit of seeing additional mech chassis on the field of battle. The net increase in power will be negligible because the vast majority of what you face currently is Tier 1-2. Tier 2 mechs will get negligible increases and anyone twinking out a tier 3-5 to make extra good use of their bonuses would have most likely been running a Tier 1-2 mech most of the time anyway.

Let's face it. I like Stock Mech Monday, I like Commandos. I was running an Ember because it is only slightly slower, still has arms, and brought a better loadout than the Commandos. I want to run Locusts, but it is very painful to do so. I want to play my Wolverines... but again. When I bring those mechs I feel I should consider apologizing to my teammates. Can I do well in them? Yes, but I often feel it is a harder climb up hill.

So if a guy like me who likes whacky sub-optimal mechs was not playing those Tier 3-5 mechs on a regular basis... who was? The answer is "Not many folks."

So the change in power is negligible and then on top of that using only some of the benefits like extra armor on the mech, secondary boosts instead of main ones, or keeping a weapon/loadout that is already "meta strong". Narrows that marginal gap further.

So people who are already playing at a disadvantage won't be falling even further behind. No.... they will be gaining slightly and able to bring more chassis with some options they can exploit to make their off-beat builds. I am looking forward to tweaking a few mechs to see what I can work up from the quirks that isn't obvious at first glance.

And undoubtedly the few with quirks that could be out of whack (Pretty Baby's large laser quirk, perhaps) will be brought into line, further minimizing any new "Rise of the Meta". The balance killers, the metawhores will continue to do their thing, while the rest of us see a net improvement, from minor to appreciable. But Net power change? Minor.

[Davegt27]

wow 31 pages

[Bishop Steiner]

Davegt27, on 18 October 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

wow 31 pages

Well, reduce it to the essence of original ideas, and conversation, remove the flame wars, and rants and QQ and posturing on both sides, and it would probably be 2 pages, tops, lol. Probably could boil it down to about 5-6 posts, really.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 October 2014 - 09:55 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mercules, on 18 October 2014 - 08:36 PM, said:

So people who are already playing at a disadvantage won't be falling even further behind. No.... they will be gaining slightly and able to bring more chassis with some options they can exploit to make their off-beat builds. I am looking forward to tweaking a few mechs to see what I can work up from the quirks that isn't obvious at first glance.

I agree that boosting the mechs that are at a disadvantage is a good thing considering I take a good number of them (I'm about 75% of the way to mastering every medium variant except heroes). My problem is that the weapon specific quirks could've been dumped in favor of either more generic weapon buffs or other more interesting ones (free radar dep for Dragons/Lolcusts?) and given us more diversity within the meta as well as kept the build diversity for those mechs (ie no pigeon holing).

[J0anna]

1453 R, on 18 October 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

I'm going to explain a point here that many, many, many people in this thread are misunderstanding, and also using to try and bludgeon those who are dismayed at the initial implementation of the quirk system into shutting up and giving up all their existing builds for new lore-and-quirk-compliant models.....

Well written and explained, but according to what PGI has said, your logic is flawed. PGI has stated in very clear terms, that they do not want to lower time to kill. Add that in to what someone said before me, and I think you'll find your fears of every mech getting much better, while your specific setup falling behind, is a bit overblown. Right now you aren't facing an "average awesomeness of all mechs" in a typical drop. You are facing an "average awesomeness" of the better mechs that people are playing (the better tiers) and those mechs will remain the same or only get slightly better. PGI is specifically trying to not "raise the level" but rather move the majority closer to the mean. Wait and see how it drops out before cutting it off.

[Glythe]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 October 2014 - 07:00 PM, said:

So long as you are not facing all tier 1 mechs all the time, the relative power level has increased.

The quirks they are giving the tier 3-5 mechs are not good enough to make them function like tier 1 mechs. Some of the tier 5 might go to tier 3 and overall most of them will get slightly better. But most of them won't come close to T1 because they lack some critical feature. Considering most of the time you just see tier 1-2 with the occasional 3 it really won't change much.

Also consider that the Tier 1 guys are not stuck using a specific build like all the guys who are ONLY better using their preferred tweaks. That is another problem with the system.

[Mercules]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 October 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

I agree that boosting the mechs that are at a disadvantage is a good thing considering I take a good number of them (I'm about 75% of the way to mastering every medium variant except heroes). My problem is that the weapon specific quirks could've been dumped in favor of either more generic weapon buffs or other more interesting ones (free radar dep for Dragons/Lolcusts?) and given us more diversity within the meta as well as kept the build diversity for those mechs (ie no pigeon holing).

As I have stated in this thread before. I believe PGI's hands are tied on the generic weapon buffs. This issue is they can't give them a big enough percentage to bring them inline without also opening the doors to us finding a broken combination.It also doesn't encourage us to try out the different weapons, does it. Right now an LBX 10 on a Centurion is looking a bit interesting, but it if was just a generic AC buff we would probably see them all mounted with either AC/5s or UAC/5s. So they went the route of specific weapons with bigger buffs.

[Mercules]

Glythe, on 19 October 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:

Also consider that the Tier 1 guys are not stuck using a specific build like all the guys who are ONLY better using their preferred tweaks. That is another problem with the system.

Take a look at some of them. They might specify a particular weapon but often also have buffs for the secondary that are more general allowing some build freedom. HBK-4G with AC/20 and then the energy weapons you are most comfortable using like a single ERLL, multiple Mediums, Multiple SPLs. Either way it is still better off than it would have been before the quirks and is still using all it's quirks.

[dwwolf]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

TT purists who hate customization, the 'MechLab, and any 'Mech which is not run strictly and purely stock really shouldn't have much say in the customization aspects of the game. Or at least not total control over it.

Of course the HBK-4G should get AC/20 buffs. The point a few of us were hoping to make is that maybe all that massive cowling and ammunition feeds and all the stuff it needs to be an awesome AC/20 machine might, maybe, possibly, extend to builds which use other ballistics, as well? Not as strongly, of course; 12.5% buffs would have been sufficient, with the extra 12.5% strictly applying to the AC/20, but you'd figure all that extra ballistic support equipment in that big stonkin' hunch wouldn't be totally useless with anything else, hmm?

The argument isn't "The HBK should never be an AC/20 'Mech", it's "The fact that this system is essentially 'You're playing a Gauss Rifle (large single ballistic) instead of an AC/20 (large single ballistic) in your HBK-4G? JOO GET NOZING!' kinda sucks, doesn't it?"



Some players enjoy taking a sub-optimal chassis and making it into the best-performing 'Mech they can, pushing its performance as high as is possible and experimenting with it to see what sort of surprises they can find to make it sit up and dance.

The new quirks system completely and entirely eliminates that sort of experimentation - the highest possible performance in any given chassis is blind-stupid obvious, and nothing else the 'Mech does will ever even remotely compare to what it can do by following the one single build outlined by its given quirks.

Some of us are protesting the narrow focus of the quirks because we like playing in the 'Mechlab/Smurfy as much as we do on the field and Piranha is telling us to stop doing that.

you got nozzing is false. your hump is much better protected. your ml backups work better. Gauss doesnt need a buff to begin with.