963 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KraftySOT, on 18 October 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

28 pages and I explained this back on page 2 with Russ quoting it.

Good lord.



Your build wasnt competitive before. People seem to keep forgetting that. Just because you never happened to find yourself infront of my Banshee, doesnt meant that your build is good. You will eventually run across a Jager, Banshee, Dire, or Doomcrow built correctly, and die a horrible flaming death as you spit out 2 DPS while the meta builds rule the waves.

If you had a bad build before because "customization", you can still have a bad build after quirks because "customization". Nothing changes.

Now if you WANT to start competing, theres going to be a few more chassis to pick from as well as variants.

I dont think you understand what the point behind those opposing some of the weapon specific quirks either.

Rather than trying to do it my normal way, let me put it this way.
A bad Shadow Hawk config is better than other bad builds on lower tiered mechs because the Shadow Hawk is inherently good (good hitboxes, high weapon mounts, etc).
Weapon specific quirks do nothing to combat that, they do not make lower tier mechs more inherently good unlike the Hunchbacks hunch HP boost quirks. They are entirely conditional on you running a specific config for it to be competitive with the Shadow Hawk, who can still take a bad config and be better than mechs not running those specific configs.

[KraftySOT]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 October 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

I dont think you understand what the point behind those opposing some of the weapon specific quirks either.

Rather than trying to do it my normal way, let me put it this way.
A bad Shadow Hawk config is better than other bad builds on lower tiered mechs because the Shadow Hawk is inherently good (good hitboxes, high weapon mounts, etc).
Weapon specific quirks do nothing to combat that, they do not make lower tier mechs more inherently good unlike the Hunchbacks hunch HP boost quirks. They are entirely conditional on you running a specific config for it to be competitive with the Shadow Hawk, who can still take a bad config and be better than mechs not running those specific configs.

But thats how it is right now.

The difference is that you can now put that pigeon holed build on a 45 or 50, or 55 tonner and compete with the Shadowhawk, whereas before. You couldnt at all...ever...no matter what the build was.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KraftySOT, on 18 October 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

But thats how it is right now.

The difference is that you can now put that pigeon holed build on a 45 or 50, or 55 tonner and compete with the Shadowhawk, whereas before. You couldnt at all...ever...no matter what the build was.

That's yet to be seen, but why pigeon hole in the first place? After all that was one of the arguments against sized hardpoints in the first place, was that they would pigeon hole mechs to be competitive with high performers unlike quirks.

What if generic weapon quirks accomplished the same goal without creating one-trick ponies, or simply stepping outside the lines and giving buffs outside what we have seen (like reduced radar signature)?

All weapon-quirks have become is a band-aid to a much larger issue in the game rather than a solution, much like ghost heat.

[KraftySOT]

You do see that there ARE blanket energy/ballistics/missile Quirks...as well as "families" Large, Medium Small, etc..

Theyre just not on every mech.

Not to mention, itll get tweaked over the coming months.

Edited by KraftySOT, 18 October 2014 - 11:26 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

KraftySOT, on 18 October 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

You do see that there ARE blanket energy/ballistics/missile Quirks...as well as "families" Large, Medium Small, etc..

Theyre just not on every mech.

Not to mention, itll get tweaked over the coming months.

Yes but often these are one-off quirks as the only variant to have more than one family/generic quirk is the HBK-4G.

[Dracol]

Duke Nedo, on 18 October 2014 - 02:55 AM, said:

At this point it's mainly speculation anyways... we'd better make a new thread when it's live called "My favorite builds that became less competetive by the weapon-specific quirks" and take it from there.

I'd name it "My favorite builds didn't get a quirk buff so they are now nerfed into non-competitiveness" just to more accurately reflect the QQing.

Cause that's what I keep hearing from the anti-quirk crowd in this thread. "My favorite build that I run all the time is now useless because it didn't receive a specific weapon buff." or "My build got nerfed"... even though nothing negative is being applied to it.

There's a whole lot of "He got one, why don't I get one" whining around these parts.

[Joe Mallad]

KraftySOT, on 18 October 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

You do see that there ARE blanket energy/ballistics/missile Quirks...as well as "families" Large, Medium Small, etc..

Theyre just not on every mech.

Not to mention, itll get tweaked over the coming months.

there are no "family" quirks "yet" as in all large laser types or all small laser types. The only "family" quirks we have so fare are "energy" and "missile". But the quirks Russ has posted that say "large laser" means (just) large lasers. Or "medium lasers" mean (just) medium lasers. These don't mean ERLL, or ERML. There are no blanket Ballistic Quirks "yet" either.

[Mark Brandhauber]

I see my critseeker shd 2-h being made completely pointless by the new quirks...... sad as it has become one of my favourite mechs. But any thing that gives the is chassis more of a draw over the omnimechs would be welcome......goodbye critseeker will miss you, but that's what i get for using more than 2 kinds of weapons i guess.

Edited by Mark Brandhauber, 18 October 2014 - 11:54 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dracol, on 18 October 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Cause that's what I keep hearing from the anti-quirk crowd in this thread. "My favorite build that I run all the time is now useless because it didn't receive a specific weapon buff." or "My build got nerfed"... even though nothing negative is being applied to it.

Just because something negative doesn't get applied doesn't mean that the variant doesn't get worse.....
A mech's effectiveness is determined by its relationship to the effectiveness of other mechs and if all the mechs are able to run better things, those builds are in fact worse even if the top tier is unaffected.

[Rhaegor]

Strong Female Role Model, on 18 October 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

I am sure that the quirks will be well tested and balanced so as not to promote more pigeonholed builds on mechs, and that they will simply help bring some of the lesser played mechs to a more balanced power level.

lol well tested.

[Joe Mallad]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 October 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

Just because something negative doesn't get applied doesn't mean that the variant doesn't get worse.....
A mech's effectiveness is determined by its relationship to the effectiveness of other mechs and if all the mechs are able to run better things, those builds are in fact worse even if the top tier is unaffected.

all it is, is that some have built these mechs that suit their play style, out of a mech that is nothing like its stating build. And these quirks (mostly) benefit the base/starting build that these mech were sold to them as, and because most players will be able to get some use out of these mechs as they were intended, and the Frankenstein mech builders most likely won't get much out of the quirks, now those players are QQing that the quirks are not fair to all.

[KraftySOT]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 October 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Yes but often these are one-off quirks as the only variant to have more than one family/generic quirk is the HBK-4G.

Theres still I believe something like 50 variants yet to be released. You have no idea.

Yoseful Mallad, on 18 October 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

there are no "family" quirks "yet" as in all large laser types or all small laser types. The only "family" quirks we have so fare are "energy" and "missile". But the quirks Russ has posted that say "large laser" means (just) large lasers. Or "medium lasers" mean (just) medium lasers. These don't mean ERLL, or ERML. There are no blanket Ballistic Quirks "yet" either.

Check Russ's twitter yo

[Felicitatem Parco]

I don't understand how anyone can disagree with the OP.

These "quirks" are designed to take low-performing Mechs and make them more powerful ASSUMING you run a stock-oriented loadout.

We all know that the Hunchback-4H is designed to run an AC/20 and 5ML, whereas the Hunchback-4G is designed to run multiple ballistics. Look at the hardpoints that PGI game them - the Hunchback-4G is an inferior carrier of the AC/20 compared to the -4H.

How did PGI respond to that INARGUABLE fact? They took the low-performing Mech and completely ignored it's intended role as a multiple-ballistic Mech, and tried to buff it so it can do a DIFFERENT MECH'S JOB.

Piranha Games specifically designed to the Hunchback-4G to be a mech that is intended to carry multiple ballistics, and they specifically designed the Hunchback-4H to do a better job carrying a single large ballistic... why didn't they just stick to their original plans? Why change things now, and try to make the 4G a single-ballistic Mech when it has always been PGI's intent to have it played as a multiple ballistic?

[KraftySOT]

Prosperity Park, on 18 October 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

These "quirks" are designed to take low-performing Mechs and make them more powerful ASSUMING you run a stock-oriented loadout.

No. Theyre designed to take mechs no one is using, and make them more useful.

[Pale Jackal]

On the one hand, I respect PGI trying to make iconic 'mechs good at their role, such as the Awesome and HBK. On the other, I think the buffs should have been to classes of weapons (e.g. ballistics) rather than a given weapon type (e.g. AC20).

I do not want to see 'mechs being shoe-horned into a given build. If I want to run an AC10 instead of an AC20 in an Atlas D, I should get the same perks as the AC20 gets. Granted, I wouldn't do such a thing (because an AC20 is clearly the superior option), but now there is even LESS incentive to put an AC10 in there.

Just give the Atlas D an across the board ballistics bonus.

Edited by Pale Jackal, 18 October 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Budor]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 October 2014 - 11:11 AM, said:

Weapon specific quirks do nothing to combat that, they do not make lower tier mechs more inherently good unlike the Hunchbacks hunch HP boost quirks...

Off course they do, the lower tier mechs receive more/better quirks. Bad builds will stay bad, if you want to run those its not PGIs fault.

Edited by Budor, 18 October 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[Pale Jackal]

WM Quicksilver, on 18 October 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

That's yet to be seen, but why pigeon hole in the first place?
All weapon-quirks have become is a band-aid to a much larger issue in the game rather than a solution, much like ghost heat.

Exactly. No need to pigeon hole 'mechs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Budor, on 18 October 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Off course they do, the lower tier mechs receive more/better quirks.

The Dragon 1N has 4 weapon specific quirks vs 3 generic quirks (two armor boosts and an energy quirk) and is in the lowest tier, that does not make it inherently good, that makes it conditionally good.

[Alienized]

Mark Brandhauber, on 18 October 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

I see my critseeker shd 2-h being made completely pointless by the new quirks...... sad as it has become one of my favourite mechs. But any thing that gives the is chassis more of a draw over the omnimechs would be welcome......goodbye critseeker will miss you, but that's what i get for using more than 2 kinds of weapons i guess.

and now to you again: you can still use your build on that mech and it wont play any different than before.
thats a FACT. NOTHING is going to be changed on that.
after quirks it just might be even BETTER on a DIFFERENT shadowhawk version. now whats your damn problem again?

[Oogalook]

Yo, I pasted an update on the OP. KraftySOT, Aliisa, it looks like you pretty much know what I'm getting at, and I respect your disagreement. However, I've always been in the business of trying new and strange things on my 'mechs in order to change their play styles and push the limits in variability on a given 'mech. The fact that the quirks tacitly discourage this sort of behavior is the bother. Everybody who disagrees with you just enjoy the game in a different way than you do. Please respect that. This topic was intended (lol) for discussion on customization, not viability. It's customization which is sorta sacrificed for viability by the quirks, though the latter is certainly increased.

Edited by Oogalook, 18 October 2014 - 12:36 PM.