963 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

UnsafePilot, on 20 October 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

This. All of my table top games involved custom mech loadouts; To me it's always been a part of what makes BT special.

Until Joseph Mallan shows up with his unbeatable team of Stone Rhinos. *******.

[Bishop Steiner]

UnsafePilot, on 20 October 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

This. All of my table top games involved custom mech loadouts; To me it's always been a part of what makes BT special.

So you ignored half the rules in the book. That's fine. But then to show up at a Convention, official tourney and expect everyone else to play by your house rules? How well would that fly?

[KraftySOT]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

, a Gaussdragon build with medium lasers and SRMs backing up its cannon instead. That build? Still a straight-up Tier 5.

Uh.

No it isnt.

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

So you ignored half the rules in the book. That's fine. But then to show up at a Convention, official tourney and expect everyone else to play by your house rules? How well would that fly?

Real well with about 4 guys throwing them out the door...maybe 10 feet or so.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

A'ight, lemme go at this from a different angle.

Right now - right this very minute, 12:39 on October 20th, 2014 - the DRG-1N is considered a T5 chassis. With the new quirks slated for it, its massive AC/5 cycle reduction and its ERLL enhancements, a build which takes advantage of those quirks (I.e. a build with dual AC/5s and a single ERLL with a Dragon-sized engine) might theoretically make it all the way up to T3, where off Jagers reside.

A DRG-1N that does not play a dual AC/5 build w/ an ERLL, on the other hand, is still going to be an unequivocal Tier 5 'Mech, with effectively zilch-all enhancements for, say, a Gaussdragon build with medium lasers and SRMs backing up its cannon instead. That build? Still a straight-up Tier 5.

What many of the ":-/" players were hoping for (the sane ones, anyways) wasn't necessarily a set of quirks that'd turn all DRG-1N builds into T3 builds. What we were hoping for was a set of quirks that turned the AC/5 and ERLL build Piranha has determined is the DRG-1N's One True Purpose into a T3 build, but which also turned the rest of the DRG-1N's potential non-scheiss builds into T4 builds, too. Nobody's expecting a DRG-1N with machine guns, an LRM-10, and small lasers to be anything but a laugh, but the quirkset as shown means that the DRG-1N in its given build is potentially T3 depending on, but all its other reasonable builds are still T5.

That disparity is the thing catching up a lot of folks. People are fine with 'Mechs having a single given build Piranha favors, but having a single given build Piranha is effectively demanding sticks in craws.

Does that make any more sense?

Well, you know who you really need to direct your vitriol at? The Comp Players Russ listens to for advice on what mech is what tier, and what builds are the "one true build" for each chassis.

[KraftySOT]

lol

[UnsafePilot]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

So you ignored half the rules in the book. That's fine. But then to show up at a Convention, official tourney and expect everyone else to play by your house rules? How well would that fly?

It's always been a game I've played for fun. I have literally no clue how a convention or official tourney would look.

We also started with clan omni's; were we breaking a lot of omni rules by swapping the loadouts? It's honestly been a long time since I've looked at a BT rulebook.

My point is mostly that how people view the franchise is colored by when/how they first came in contact with it. For me the customization has always been there.

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 20 October 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

To be super fair...TSR rule books all kicked off with the fact that the D&D rules are just suggestions and break them whenever you want...

And BTech rule books....did not say that lol

And at official TSR Sponsored Events....how many of those rules did they ignore? How many of the core rules can you choose to ignore in Neverwinters Night, or Baldurs Gate? (which did modify rules to make them fit the different gaming environ, I am sure)

Big point being, what one does at home, on private servers, etc, and what one does in the GenPop? Tend to be two very different things.

Kind of like this conversation and the OP, actually, lol.

[AlmightyAeng]

KraftySOT, on 20 October 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Uh.

No it isnt.



Real well with about 4 guys throwing them out the door...maybe 10 feet or so.

Just remember, the way to win a 100-ton tournament is ALWAYS to take 100 Bulldogs. META.

[Bishop Steiner]

UnsafePilot, on 20 October 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

It's always been a game I've played for fun. I have literally no clue how a convention or official tourney would look.

We also started with clan omni's; were we breaking a lot of omni rules by swapping the loadouts? It's honestly been a long time since I've looked at a BT rulebook.

My point is mostly that how people view the franchise is colored by when/how they first came in contact with it. For me the customization has always been there.

And I am not denying it, I am putting your experience, and house rules, into perspective. When you play online, with 10,000 other people? We really don't get to play our house rules. (Well, we can, to some degree in private matches, see Stock Mech Mondays), but for you to say "this is how I always played" holds about as much weight as me saying "well I HATE Clan Tech, so 3025 tier 1 tech is all I play, so MWO should ONLY play with tier 1 tech and no Clans".

It just doesn't work. We all gotta share a sandbox here.

[gregsolidus]

Damn MLG players.

[KraftySOT]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

And at official TSR Sponsored Events....how many of those rules did they ignore? How many of the core rules can you choose to ignore in Neverwinters Night, or Baldurs Gate? (which did modify rules to make them fit the different gaming environ, I am sure)

Big point being, what one does at home, on private servers, etc, and what one does in the GenPop? Tend to be two very different things.

Kind of like this conversation and the OP, actually, lol.

True...though, final call on everything in D&D at Cons, is up to the DM at the table, so anything flies if it flies. Thats really unique though the only other system like that is Rifts.

And of course you could turn your difficulty up and down and it cheated some of the core rules in those games.

HOWEVER, when you went online and played with friends, you have to sync your difficulty level, so you all had to agree on that rulevar. One guy couldnt be on easy while the other guy was on hard.

Thats the point youre making. When people come TOGETHER to play en masse...there has to be some agreement, nay not just agreement, but firm standards and rules by which to play.

Of course the "meta" will still rise out of ANY competitive game, but the base rules, must generally (unless youre in F2P land) be constant and transparent.

Ghost Badger, on 20 October 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

Just remember, the way to win a 100-ton tournament is ALWAYS to take 100 Bulldogs. META.

lol

You mean Savannah Masters.

[KraftySOT]

I remember the first time I heard "NO CHARGE ATTACKS BY HOVERCRAFT!" screamed in my face and the ensuing argument.

This aint my first rodeo.

PS,: And Pro-tip....if you scream REALLY violently in most table top players faces, they acquiesce..

I made that damned charge attack. You dont throw house rules at me halfway through the game bro. I didnt spend my entire summer job money on a box full of pewter Savannah Masters so you could tell me "No charge attacks with hovercraft"

Edited by KraftySOT, 20 October 2014 - 10:05 AM.

[Alek Ituin]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 09:49 AM, said:

Where would you mount it though? There is little internal space, as with most military craft. And while you could external mount it (like the old G-Pod on F4s in Vietnam) that would likely impact other aspects of the fighters performance.

Well, F-22's are quite large aircraft. Sacrifice a (very) small portion of internal tanks, stack the second Vulcan with the first, and double up the ammo load (which would be a grand total of 240 shells or so). Could also shove it in one of the side mounted internal weapon bays as a mod... Maybe the pilot likes gun kills instead of using fire-and-forget missiles?

Lots of options if you get creative!

Edited by Alek Ituin, 20 October 2014 - 10:04 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

gregsolidus, on 20 October 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

Damn MLG players.

won't hear me argue that one.

While I don't agree with balancing to the lowest common denominator (aka the steering wheel underhive), I also feel that balancing according to a competitive/meta driven vision of the 1% is ignoring how 95% play the game.

I do feel most of us would truly like an in the middle game where everything is legit Viable, within reason (running a 12 flamer Nova will always be BAD, sorry), with even "optimal" builds not being massively superior to the "norm".

Which is why I don't think just Comps can provide it either, as they are essentially wired to always look for advantages to exploit, and always think purely in terms of "optimal", but most I don't feel are any better at seeing the overarching ripple effect.

But for the moment, that ship, too, has sailed.

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

Reading the update in the OP, it's sad to see that the topic starter is still entitled to his opinion that certain bonuses without negative effects are somehow bad for customization. It's just so irrational... Your tripple AC2 build will be just as good as it was! Even better, if you field some lasers with it. But besides being just as good and viable as it was (or is now), 4G will also be good at last in it's primary config. So, not just your viable custom builds will be good, but basic builds on the mechs will get some love too, and it's great. Nobody loses anything. You'd better see it at last, it will brighten your day.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alek Ituin, on 20 October 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

Well, F-22's are quite large aircraft. Sacrifice a small portion of internal tanks, stack the second Vulcan with the first, and double up the ammo load (which would be a grand total of 240 shells or so). Could also shove it in one of the side mounted internal weapon bays as a mod... Maybe the pilot likes gun kills instead of using fire-and-forget missiles?

Lots of options if you get creative!

I would hope his WIng Commander would slap him for flying a non optimal Meta Build then! Missile Kills are 10x more effective than gun kills!

(also, got to admit, am I the only one who ever wondered about loading a gun that can dump it's entire ammo load in like...1 second onto a craft?)

[Metus regem]

KraftySOT, on 20 October 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

True...though, final call on everything in D&D at Cons, is up to the DM at the table, so anything flies if it flies. Thats really unique though the only other system like that is Rifts.

And Palladium books can get very, very nasty if you start to use rules like the 4% one... I have never seen a Rifts game come apart so fast, or so many player characters die, as when I did 1 game with the 4% rule... so much carnage...

[Bishop Steiner]

Duncan Jr Fischer, on 20 October 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Reading the update in the OP, it's sad to see that the topic starter is still entitled to his opinion that certain bonuses without negative effects are somehow bad for customization. It's just so irrational... Your tripple AC2 build will be just as good as it was! Even better, if you field some lasers with it. But besides being just as good and viable as it was (or is now), 4G will also be good at last in it's primary config. So, not just your viable custom builds will be good, but basic builds on the mechs will get some love too, and it's great. Nobody loses anything. You'd better see it at last, it will brighten your day.

wait.... there was an OP?

What did it say again?

[AlmightyAeng]

KraftySOT, on 20 October 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

I remember the first time I heard "NO CHARGE ATTACKS BY HOVERCRAFT!" screamed in my face and the ensuing argument.

This aint my first rodeo.

PS,: And Pro-tip....if you scream REALLY violently in most table top players faces, they acquiesce..

I made that damned charge attack. You dont throw house rules at me halfway through the game bro. I didnt spend my entire summer job money on a box full of Savannah Masters so you could tell me "No charge attacks with hovercraft"

Well, considering the bulldog is what, 60-tons? I was recommending cheating. LOL.

But yeah, Savannah Masters are the devil. 5-tons of pure Satan.

[UnsafePilot]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 09:56 AM, said:

And I am not denying it, I am putting your experience, and house rules, into perspective. When you play online, with 10,000 other people? We really don't get to play our house rules. (Well, we can, to some degree in private matches, see Stock Mech Mondays), but for you to say "this is how I always played" holds about as much weight as me saying "well I HATE Clan Tech, so 3025 tier 1 tech is all I play, so MWO should ONLY play with tier 1 tech and no Clans".

It just doesn't work. We all gotta share a sandbox here.

Were we really breaking many rules by changing the weapon loadouts of our omnis? The lore has always made me feel like we were in the clear there.

I'm fine with sharing the sandbox and I agree that we're all in this togeather. The thing about me saying that 'this is how I've always played' is that the THIS in question is how MWO works currently. I'm not arguing for my house rules; I'm arguing for the construction rules we currently share in MWO.