963 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

KraftySOT, on 20 October 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Uh.

No it isnt.

Sure it is. If the DRG-1N is currently Tier 5, would it not be such pretty much regardless of its current best builds? After all, the other 'Mechs all seem to be rated on where they sit in their most effective configurations - i.e. rated by their potential rather than their stock fits or any single given semi-crap fit. Heh, besides. Would you pilot a Gaussdragon in the current environment and expect to do well? I could get some work done with one, but it would be team-dependent, and it wouldn't be nearly as much work as I could get done with a similar-ish fit on one of my top-end 'Mechs.

Heh...which, as I recall, is the single largest complaint TT guys have, yes? The fact that I can put a Gaussdragon-ish fit, with Gauss, some medium lasers, and a couple of SRM launchers on my DRG-1N, my Stormcrows, and my Timber Wolves if I so chose and have them all function in a similar battlefield role?

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 09:51 AM, said:

Well, you know who you really need to direct your vitriol at? The Comp Players Russ listens to for advice on what mech is what tier, and what builds are the "one true build" for each chassis.

I'm discussing my views and desires for the quirks system in a thread for discussing views and desires of the quirk system. I wasn't aware I was kicking out any 'vitriol' at all. Rather, I'm trying to clarify where my position is on the spectrum as people seem to confuse it all the time as me and others on my end of the table asking for blanket megaquirk upgrades to every weapon on every sub-optimal chassis in the game. Which I'm really not doing.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

running a 12 flamer Nova will always be BAD, sorry

I'm going to have to try that one, it actually sounds like a good laugh.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 20 October 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

And Palladium books can get very, very nasty if you start to use rules like the 4% one... I have never seen a Rifts game come apart so fast, or so many player characters die, as when I did 1 game with the 4% rule... so much carnage...

My Palladium, is sadly rusty (though I do have the newer Robotech books laying around) Care to refresh my memory n the 4%?

(My biggest issue with Palladium, being that with the ridiculous and inconsistent power creep, I always had to rewrite all the damage and armor values to keep stuff in line, and then use other availability rules, repair, cost etc to allow and justify outliers like the Glitterboys and such. Also, do you know how screwed an all GBoy unit gets when you seed the battlefield with heavy fusion block mines? Drop those pylons, and BOOM!!!)

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

I would hope his WIng Commander would slap him for flying a non optimal Meta Build then! Missile Kills are 10x more effective than gun kills!

(also, got to admit, am I the only one who ever wondered about loading a gun that can dump it's entire ammo load in like...1 second onto a craft?)

What craft would that be? I know that the A-10 carries enough ammo for 18 seconds of sustained fire, but does 1 second bursts to avoid damage to the gun barrels, and keep it's air speed up...

[Bishop Steiner]

Ghost Badger, on 20 October 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:

Well, considering the bulldog is what, 60-tons? I was recommending cheating. LOL.

But yeah, Savannah Masters are the devil. 5-tons of pure Satan.

Yeah. I think we did run a house rule where the damage the SM took was severely magnified. NAy truly high speed charge disintegrated the SM, essentially.

[AlmightyAeng]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Sure it is. If the DRG-1N is currently Tier 5, would it not be such pretty much regardless of its current best builds? After all, the other 'Mechs all seem to be rated on where they sit in their most effective configurations - i.e. rated by their potential rather than their stock fits or any single given semi-crap fit. Heh, besides. Would you pilot a Gaussdragon in the current environment and expect to do well? I could get some work done with one, but it would be team-dependent, and it wouldn't be nearly as much work as I could get done with a similar-ish fit on one of my top-end 'Mechs.

Heh...which, as I recall, is the single largest complaint TT guys have, yes? The fact that I can put a Gaussdragon-ish fit, with Gauss, some medium lasers, and a couple of SRM launchers on my DRG-1N, my Stormcrows, and my Timber Wolves if I so chose and have them all function in a similar battlefield role?


I'm discussing my views and desires for the quirks system in a thread for discussing views and desires of the quirk system. I wasn't aware I was kicking out any 'vitriol' at all. Rather, I'm trying to clarify where my position is on the spectrum as people seem to confuse it all the time as me and others on my end of the table asking for blanket megaquirk upgrades to every weapon on every sub-optimal chassis in the game. Which I'm really not doing.

So...what are you asking for again? Not to be forced into a specific role/loadout?

Since you said it yourself, these chassis aren't getting used anyway in this environment (or, some would argue, used effectively)...what's more fun? Obsolescence? Or narrowly-focused opportunity?

Just sayin.'

Edited by Ghost Badger, 20 October 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[gregsolidus]

Duncan Jr Fischer, on 20 October 2014 - 10:03 AM, said:

Reading the update in the OP, it's sad to see that the topic starter is still entitled to his opinion that certain bonuses without negative effects are somehow bad for customization.

He doesn't have his "logic and reason" cert yet.

Edited by gregsolidus, 20 October 2014 - 10:10 AM.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

My Palladium, is sadly rusty (though I do have the newer Robotech books laying around) Care to refresh my memory n the 4%?

(My biggest issue with Palladium, being that with the ridiculous and inconsistent power creep, I always had to rewrite all the damage and armor values to keep stuff in line, and then use other availability rules, repair, cost etc to allow and justify outliers like the Glitterboys and such. Also, do you know how screwed an all GBoy unit gets when you seed the battlefield with heavy fusion block mines? Drop those pylons, and BOOM!!!)

4% rule,

To shoot through something, you need to do 4% of it's total SDC/MDC...

You know what happens when an MD weapon hits a SDC target right?

100 MD body armour takes 5 MD damage, 1 point of MD hits the squishy human inside of the body armour....

[KraftySOT]

Metus regem, on 20 October 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

And Palladium books can get very, very nasty if you start to use rules like the 4% one... I have never seen a Rifts game come apart so fast, or so many player characters die, as when I did 1 game with the 4% rule... so much carnage...

I loved the brutality of it for the same reason I love perma death rougelikes. Its bloody hard. But yeah if you dont go through the Rifts rules and kick out some of them...it leads to violent spasms in most people.

[1453 R]

Ghost Badger, on 20 October 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

So...what are you asking for again?

Stupid thread moving a million miles an hour...

At this point I'm keeping up as I can mostly to keep myself amused at work. But as I outlined on page...33, I think?

Currently, a T5 'Mech (example: DRG-1N) which adheres strictly and solely to its upcoming quirkage will, theoretically, be able to kick itself up to mebbepossibly Tier 3, while any version of the 'Mech that is not strictly conformant to The One Single Build Piranha Demands for the 'Mech is still a Tier 5 heap.

What folks were originally hoping for from the quirk system were split quirks that enhanced The One Single Build Piranha Prefers for the 'Mech to T3, but which kicked up most other reasonable configurations for the 'Mech to T4 as well, rather than leaving it back at T5 without any real assistance to speak of. That's what I was hoping for, with things like half-and-half quirks that offered a moderate buff to a general weapon class (ballistic, energy, missile), and then double that general bonus to a specific signature weapon of the chassis (AC/5 for the Durgan, AC/20 for the Punchback, etcetera).

[Metus regem]

KraftySOT, on 20 October 2014 - 10:12 AM, said:

I loved the brutality of it for the same reason I love perma death rougelikes. Its bloody hard. But yeah if you dont go through the Rifts rules and kick out some of them...it leads to violent spasms in most people.

Personally, I like the Penetration Value for the modern weapons from the weapons locker, and it's funny as hell to see the look on someone's face, the first time they get hosed by a M2...

5D10+25 X 10 for a burst, thank you!

[Mothykins]

I'm still amused that there's this glut of posting from folk who assume everyone has hours upon hours to pour into this game. Return to your deepfryers folk. These be normal work hours.

I am, of course exempt; No job at the moment.

EDIT: HAHAHAHAHAHAA, TO MANY TABS OPEN, wrong thread, whoops.

I fail, get ffff'd

I'm gonna crawl back into a hole somewhere...

Edited by Cavale, 20 October 2014 - 10:28 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

Stupid thread moving a million miles an hour...

At this point I'm keeping up as I can mostly to keep myself amused at work.

+1! Lol

Quote

But as I outlined on page...33, I think?

Currently, a T5 'Mech (example: DRG-1N) which adheres strictly and solely to its upcoming quirkage will, theoretically, be able to kick itself up to mebbepossibly Tier 3, while any version of the 'Mech that is not strictly conformant to The One Single Build Piranha Demands for the 'Mech is still a Tier 5 heap.

What folks were originally hoping for from the quirk system were split quirks that enhanced The One Single Build Piranha Prefers for the 'Mech to T3, but which kicked up most other reasonable configurations for the 'Mech to T4 as well, rather than leaving it back at T5 without any real assistance to speak of. That's what I was hoping for, with things like half-and-half quirks that offered a moderate buff to a general weapon class (ballistic, energy, missile), and then double that general bonus to a specific signature weapon of the chassis (AC/5 for the Durgan, AC/20 for the Punchback, etcetera).

So, basically you have an issue with the split being in different weapon trees, because other than 'the one true build,' the other builds you see as being viable ALSO focus on ballistics. Got it.

That'd be an interesting approach, too...but putting all the quirks in one tree WOULD encourage boating, since ll the benefits apply to a single weapon class. Want to make the most of it? Devote all your weapon tonnage to JUST that class.

With the way PGI approached it, they're encouraging secondary weapons of a different nature.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 20 October 2014 - 10:30 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 20 October 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

What craft would that be? I know that the A-10 carries enough ammo for 18 seconds of sustained fire, but does 1 second bursts to avoid damage to the gun barrels, and keep it's air speed up...

was an exaggeration. But the Vulcan on an f22 can fire 100 rounds per second. That's all of 4.8 seconds, and probably no more than about 6 to 10 bursts for the cannon. Even though its not a primary weapon system, just seems like a lot of modern fighters almost don't carry enough ammo to justify packing the gun at all.

F-15 with nearly 1000 rounds seems to be one of the few that really took dogfighting seriously into consideration.

Also always did wonder why the standard payload for the a10 is about 200 rounds light.

[Alek Ituin]

Metus regem, on 20 October 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

What craft would that be? I know that the A-10 carries enough ammo for 18 seconds of sustained fire, but does 1 second bursts to avoid damage to the gun barrels, and keep it's air speed up...

F-22's carry a grand total of 480 shells for their M61A2 Vulcan (EFT has 150 rounds, got the two mixed up and thought the F-22 had 120, my bad). This same rotary cannon can spit out 6600 20mm rounds per minute. That equates to a grand total of 4.3 seconds of fire.

Not exactly designed for extended combat... More for "Oh look I have you in my sights, lemme shoot you before running home and getting more missiles"

Sorry for OT... >_>

Edited by Alek Ituin, 20 October 2014 - 10:19 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Metus regem, on 20 October 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

And Palladium books can get very, very nasty if you start to use rules like the 4% one... I have never seen a Rifts game come apart so fast, or so many player characters die, as when I did 1 game with the 4% rule... so much carnage...

I have played Rifts for decades and know not of a 4% rule. Can someone enlighten me please?

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 20 October 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

4% rule,

To shoot through something, you need to do 4% of it's total SDC/MDC...

You know what happens when an MD weapon hits a SDC target right?

100 MD body armour takes 5 MD damage, 1 point of MD hits the squishy human inside of the body armour....

Ah. Yeah.


Also had other things that players never got.

Had one guy jump off a 15 story building in his MDC armor, and in a different game, a Samas lose it's wing and crash from 1000 meters.

Both tried to argue the ground was SDC and would not have breached their armor, etc.
http://en.wikipedia....drostatic_shock

Both really got miffed when I used the SDC explanation example in the book of the guy jumping on a grenade. The Samas and Body armor were both quite salvageable. But their was a lot of pink slime, inside, to hose out of both, first.

Always did like Rifts. Did think now that you mention it, that the 4% rule was a little..extreme. That said, guy in full MDC body armor jumps in front of Boom gun blast. IDC what the total damage done is respective to the armor. Guy inside just got flung back about 100 ft, got his limbs twisted and contorted, on the miracle that section of armor didn't buckle and breach, the shear force transferred by hydrostatic shock would likely have ruptured a lot of squishy organs.

I may be nice and let the guy live, but he was usually in the hospital for the foreseeable future, and often in need of shiny new cybernetics.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 10:18 AM, said:

was an exaggeration. But the Vulcan on an f22 can fire 100 rounds per second. That's all of 4.8 seconds, and probably no more than about 6 to 10 bursts for the cannon. Even though its not a primary weapon system, just seems like a lot of modern fighters almost don't carry enough ammo to justify packing the gun at all.

F-15 with nearly 1000 rounds seems to be one of the few that really took dogfighting seriously into consideration.

Also always did wonder why the standard payload for the a10 is about 200 rounds light.

Different roles really...

The F-15 like the F-22 is an interceptor first and foremost, how ever unlike the F-22, the F-15 was designed and built at a time before stealth systems became the new "meta" so to speak. Unlike the F-15 the F-22 was built at a time, when dog fighting is falling by the way side now (again... look what happened at the beginning of the Vietnam war...).

The A-10 how ever is meant to be attacking ground targets, though I do know one A-10 pilot that got an Air to Air kill with the GAU-8 during the first war in Iraq... but that is a tangent to the main subject.

[1453 R]

Ghost Badger, on 20 October 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

+1! Lol



So, basically you have an issue with the split being in different weapon trees, because other than 'the one true build' the only other builds you see as being viable ALSO focus on ballistics. Got it.

That'd be an interesting approach, too...but putting all the quirks in one tree WOULD encourage boating, since all the benefits apply to a single weapon class.

With the way PGI approached it, they're encouraging secondary weapons of a different nature.

Not quite.

For the example DRG-1N, for instance, the AC/5 quirks would be split to, effectively, 25% general ballistic cooldown + 25% additional AC/5 cooldown (or 20/30, which would also work), but then the thing would also get the same sort of split on its energy quirks. 10/15% split for its ERLL giving it some benefit to every beam, whilst giving a larger benefit to its PGI-approved loadout.

In such a way a Gauss/ML Gaussdragon build would still pick up some benefits from the quirks, enough to help it out against Jagers a bit and to put a smile on its pilot's face again, but players who do the dual AC/5 build Piranha favors get the bigger boost. This favors stock(ish...) loadouts as TT guys favor and point different people at different chassis, but without straight-up mouthpunching folks who've perhaps sunk a bunch of sweat and effort into a build Piranha is now basically telling them to discard.

The main argument against this proposal seems to be that some players feel that it muddies the waters and dilutes the entire purpose of the quirks system by making role/niche delineation less clear-cut, but my own thoughts are that less clear-cut delineation isn't necessarily a bad thing. And also I'm pretty sure that's not the case, as an extra double-plus of the stated bonus for the specific weapon would be a pretty starkly clear indication to new players of how Piranha wants them to play their 'Mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Alek Ituin, on 20 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

F-22's carry a grand total of 480 shells for their M61A2 Vulcan (EFT has 150 rounds, got the two mixed up and thought the F-22 had 120, my bad). This same rotary cannon can spit out 6600 20mm rounds per minute. That equates to a grand total of 4.3 seconds of fire.

Not exactly designed for extended combat... More for "Oh look I have you in my sights, lemme shoot you before running home and getting more missiles"

Sorry for OT... >_>

Yeah, but the mauser 27mm also is only 1700 rounds per minute...so almost 10 seconds of fire.

Mind you, sorties rarely involve the number of fighter on fighters that WWII did, so one doesn't need near as much payload endurance in that regard, but it still seems largely an afterthought, especially in the EFT where they were treating the gun as ballast, and not operational?