963 replies to this topic

[AlmightyAeng]

Appogee, on 20 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

They clearly have the time to implement individual quirks on literally dozens of variants.

So they would also have the time to implement a different framework/system.

It's not as if clever community members haven't already written up some excellent framework ideas which would enable a move away from ghost heat, "not double" heat sinks, non-pinpoint damage, Magic ECM and the other bandaid design decisions that they've been trying to apply new bandaids to since closed beta.

Bandaids take less time and dollars to create.

[K0M3D14N]

Appogee, on 20 October 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

They clearly have the time to implement individual quirks on literally dozens of variants.

So they would also have the time to implement a different framework/system. It's not as if clever community members haven't already written some excellent ideas on how to move away from ghost heat, "not double" heat sinks, non-pinpoint damage, Magic ECM and the other band aid design decisions that they've been trying to apply new band **** to since closed beta.

Except that the quirks are as simple as adding a couple lines of code and changing some values. That's all it takes. Completely reworking the system would take an incredible amount of resources, far more than a couple coders to change the values, test, then repeat.

[Metus regem]

KraftySOT, on 20 October 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Hunter S Thompson would agree with that lol.

I think we just need to think about how we live. I live in a hip town, surrounded by hipsters...and even though those people are terrible in every way imaginable...ive learned to appreciate that they actually give a **** about the planet.

Though its the only thing they seem to give a **** about. Jobs. Bathing. Not important apparently.

But id like to believe that were shifting that way...that we realize were not environmentally, philosophically, economically, viable...when it comes to the long term survival of the human race, and the parts of the human race that are worth suviving (our altruism, compassion, joy, love, etc)

I would tend to agree with those things, maybe not in that order, but there isn't much I won't do for my Toddler, even if it is as simple (and mind numbing) as watching Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood with him before I go to work.

[Sjorpha]

Here's a good lecture on the decline of violence throughout history:
"Professor Pinker explores ideas drawn from his book entitled The Better Angels of our Nature: Why Violence has Declined."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5X2-i_poNU

Edited by Sjorpha, 20 October 2014 - 12:40 PM.

[Metus regem]

Sjorpha, on 20 October 2014 - 12:39 PM, said:

Here's a good lecture on the decline of violence throughout history:
"Professor Pinker explores ideas drawn from his book entitled The Better Angels of our Nature: Why Violence has Declined."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5X2-i_poNU

I'll have to watch that, but I deal a lot with various military organizations around the world, a lot of them are SpecOps units, and I would disagree with that. How ever, that is from what I see, and hear about when we've gone for a few too many beers.

[KraftySOT]

I also like PJ Orourke's theory (while being hilarious) that simply the invention of the "self" is the leading cause for the downturn in violence, and albeit selfish and with its faults, the "self" has mostly contributed to the fall of kings, religion, nations, and the lessing of the horrible aspects of the human condition.

When you view yourself as a YOU, and not as a part of some system of philosophical or cultural gears...youre more apt to choose non violence. You know that violence expended will most likely be violence returned. You know you love yourself and that others love themselves. Doing violence to them hurts them as much as them doing violence to you hurts you. For your own safety, not doing violence is a better course of action.

Sometimes people like say Ayn Rand, take that a little to far...but its a good sentiment.

And you have people like Machio Kaku who basically in essence say the same thing about the possible positive future of humanity. That if we all look at ourselves as individuals with worth, we know all other individuals have worth. While it cant completely "fix" violence, as in eliminate it, it can reduce to spurts of more rational, necessary violence. Like that for self preservation.

Metus regem, on 20 October 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

I'll have to watch that, but I deal a lot with various military organizations around the world, a lot of them are SpecOps units, and I would disagree with that. How ever, that is from what I see, and hear about when we've gone for a few too many beers.

But today those people go in, kill the people they intend to kill, and get out.

For the same job theyre doing today, we used to do this:

http://en.wikipedia....ion_of_Veracruz

Shelling cities vs hit squads. Big difference.

We treat "terrorists" who we seem to throw under the bus ideologically...better than we treated our own soldiers in the Civil War. Far better than we treated US citizens during world war two. It doesnt feel like it...but the world is getting better.

Edited by KraftySOT, 20 October 2014 - 12:51 PM.

[Metus regem]

KraftySOT, on 20 October 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

I also like PJ Orourke's theory (while being hilarious) that simply the invention of the "self" is the leading cause for the downturn in violence, and albeit selfish and with its faults, the "self" has mostly contributed to the fall of kings, religion, nations, and the lessing of the horrible aspects of the human condition.

When you view yourself as a YOU, and not as a part of some system of philosophical or cultural gears...youre more apt to choose non violence. You know that violence expended will most likely be violence returned. You know you love yourself and that others love themselves. Doing violence to them hurts them as much as them doing violence to you hurts you. For your own safety, not doing violence is a better course of action.

Sometimes people like say Ayn Rand, take that a little to far...but its a good sentiment.

And you have people like Machio Kaku who basically in essence say the same thing about the possible positive future of humanity. That if we all look at ourselves as individuals with worth, we know all other individuals have worth. While it cant completely "fix" violence, as in eliminate it, it can reduce to spurts of more rational, necessary violence. Like that for self preservation.




But today those people go in, kill the people they intend to kill, and get out.

For the same job theyre doing today, we used to do this:

http://en.wikipedia....ion_of_Veracruz

Interesting ideas, it'd put me out of work though...

Still I'd like my boy to have a better world to live in, than the one we currently have... so if I have to do bad things to make it happen, then I'll do bad things.

[KraftySOT]

Like...Guantanimo is pretty bad.


Andersonville was a tad bit worse....you know? lol.

[KraftySOT]

And there will always be a room for arms contractors.

Lets say, crazy stuff goes down, we become a peaceful one world government and war ends, and we go out to explore the stars in peace.

Riiiiight up until someone gets a colony going.

Then those shifty martians need to be watched. And they need protection. So theres conflict.

Right about the time conflict on earth starts to wind down. We get conflict over the cosmos.

Thats totally way cooler though. Earth is small potatoes. Do you think anyone will care about Alexander the great in 10,000 years? He took over a few thousand square miles. Who cares. Wait till someone takes several star systems.

[Revis Volek]

Almond Brown, on 20 October 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

"TinFoil hats for Sale!"

How do you propose PGI account for ALL those players who already have the Mech(s) that will get these Quirks? Take them away from them and make them re-buy?

"TinFoil hats for Sale! Cheap!"

So Here is my next idea for a cockpit item....gimme a tinfoil hat with the word QUIRKS and a big circle with a slash through it like a no smoking sign!

I'd buy one for each of my mechs...lolz

Ghost Badger, on 20 October 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

Bandaids take less time and dollars to create.

Yea, a box is like $8....but they tend to fall off.

Edited by DarthRevis, 20 October 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 20 October 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

Interesting ideas, it'd put me out of work though...

Still I'd like my boy to have a better world to live in, than the one we currently have... so if I have to do bad things to make it happen, then I'll do bad things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Hea6tdg0c&feature=youtu.be&t=15s

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 October 2014 - 12:58 PM.

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

which of course, you can still do just as well with the quirks in use.......

Can I? Can I honestly do that? Because Piranha says I can't do that anymore, Bishop.

ShinobiHunter, on 20 October 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

@ 1453 R, You can still put a Gauss rifle on your dragon if you want. It will work even better than it did before quirks. It may or may not be the optimal build for it depending on how they quirk whatever ballistic they decide to, but it will still work.

No, I really, really can't. Oh sure, I could equip the Gauss and some ammunition for it, finish out the 'Mech, and drop in a game with it, which by some folks' standards is "totally still being able to do that thing neither we nor Piranha want you to do anymore", but be honest with me, Shinobi - if you can get triple the DPS from dual AC/5s on your DRG-1N than you can get out of a single Gauss Rifle, with two-thirds of the single-shot burst damage at what is almost identical effective range, before you add in any efficiencies or modules at all, for one additional ton...is that a choice? And that's without even taking the ERLL bonuses into account.

The performance difference between a quirk-compliant T5 and a non-compliant T5 is so massively enormous that it effectively removes all non-compliant builds from play. Yes, I could drop in an old-fashioned Gaussdragon for nostalgia's sake and to change things up a bit, but only if I'm willing to accept that, should it so happen that I encounter a quirk-compliant version of my exact same 'Mech I'm in, that quirk-compliant DRG-1N is going to break me in half without anymuch effort at all if its pilot is even remotely competent. He's got the next best thing to a rotary autocannon in that thing, a few decades in front of the RAC's actual introduction.

The old standards just can't compete with that, and it sucks.

KraftySOT, on 20 October 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Its about damn time it was derailed...that was such a useless discussion. People hating free cake can go get bent.

Still here, Krafty. While I'm enjoying a few snippets of the side conversation and agree on several of the points therein, I'm also far from getting bent over TT players getting free cake. Mostly because nobody's willing to so much as admit that the cake is not for everyone. I just keep getting told to shut my f***ing cakehole and go buy whatever 'Mech has the quirks for whatever I want to run, and never-you-bloody-mind that the 'Mech with the quirks for what I want to run does not exist.

The tabletop game as a whole doesn't believe in fast strikers outside the light class (and even then light strikers as opposed to light scouts are very rare), or the Clans. Want guns and speed? Go Clan or "go get bent", at least for several more years here. Notice whose faction tag I'm wearing at the moment, and which technology base I play almost exclusively at the moment? Lemme tell you: I don't play 95% Clan 'Mechs because I'm a hardcore roleplayer.

You Spheroid types get your lasers out of the "Completely and Utterly F***ing Pointless" bin, and release ONE SINGLE CHASSIS that's built from the ground up, TT style, as a quick, effective striker (instead of being made into one with MWO's customization system, which TT players dislike intensely and want excised from the game, as I recall?), and then we'll talk, hm?

Edited by 1453 R, 20 October 2014 - 12:59 PM.

[Dracol]

KraftySOT, on 20 October 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

-snip-

What you said reminded me of something I heard a while ago.

The smallest minority group is one person.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 12:57 PM, said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Hea6tdg0c&feature=youtu.be&t=15s

He is my super hero of choice

[UnsafePilot]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Can I? Can I honestly do that? Because Piranha says I can't do that anymore, Bishop.

Have a link for that? I haven't seen any quirks mentioned that would remove power from any existing builds.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Can I? Can I honestly do that? Because Piranha says I can't do that anymore, Bishop.

Really? PGI says that you suffer negative quirks to your mech for running a different weapon system?


No? OK then.

75% of the mechs you face are tier 1, tier 2.

Next to nothing changes with them, akak the majority of the mechs.

The hope, is with this, maybe you can face 50% tier 1 and Tier 2 mechs, and maybe see some variety of other designs stepping in. Since none of these "optimized Quirk Builds" are liable to take over a tier 1 or 2 slot (being as things like horrible hitboxes and hardpoint selection, not "quirks" is what put them there in the first place) that maybe a chunk of folks will now run these lesser tier mechs, with or without premium optimization. Thus, the AVERAGE actually shifts LOWER, making your "personal build" likely MORE viable than in the current meta.

Not the other way around.

[Dracol]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

The old standards just can't compete with that, and it sucks.

From how you stated it, you almost make it sound like the old standards can compete right now.

If that is true for you, then they'll still compete after the quirks, there will just be a broader variety of chassis/variants that you will be facing as opposed to the current Firestarter, Stormcrow, Timberwolf, Direwolf and a few others we see regular nowadays.

If that is not true for you, then your build which couldn't compete before will still be as ineffective as it ever was, there will just be more variety of mechs out there that will show you how ineffective it is.

[CDLord HHGD]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

snip

Yes, there is a performance difference between a build that takes advantage of the quirks and one that doesn't. But, you will not lose effectiveness because of the quirks, just those that do run builds complimentary will. Nothing is being taken from you except your own sense of entitlement to buffs for your meta-cheese.
Your Gauss will perform THE EXACT SAME as it does now.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

You Spheroid types get your lasers out of the "Completely and Utterly F***ing Pointless" bin, and release ONE SINGLE CHASSIS that's built from the ground up, TT style, as a quick, effective striker (instead of being made into one with MWO's customization system, which TT players dislike intensely and want excised from the game, as I recall?), and then we'll talk, hm?

You really need to untwist your knickers over this "You TT People" nonsense.

Also, that 'gaussdragon' example of yours will work just as well after the quirk pass as it does now. Nothing about it is changing. You seem incapable of understanding (or, at least, acknowledging) that.

[Apnu]

I have a wingman who drives his Jester with only LPLs and MPLs, I don't see him ever changing that build no matter what quirks PGI puts out for that variant.

I, on the other hand, to play mechs with close to stock weapons (I keep a LL, MLs and LRMs on my TDR-5S) so the quirks are going to benefit me. In fact I tend to like the "ugly" T4 and T5 mechs over the T1s and T2 variants. I"m looking forward to the quirks and seeing more T5 buddies out there.

I see them as win-win. There's plenty of build variation to be had with quirks. Quirks don't hinder any meta builds out there today. Unless someone can break it down for me, all the complaints seem to be about people wanting positive quirks for already established meta-builds. Sounds lame to me.