963 replies to this topic

[Scratx]

cdlord, on 17 October 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Oh! I'm sorry! I didn't realize the game was supposed to cater to YOU! Next time I see you in a match I'll throw myself at your alter of sacrifice and give myself willingly to your awesomeness.

On a more serious note, there is no "less". NOTHING is being taken away from you. Some mechs are getting stuff because they suck more than you do. What do you have against equality??

It makes his mechs relatively less valuable, is my guess?

I understand the arguments, I disagree with the OP.


Also, Russ just posted a few more mech quirks.

Quote

Jenner Oxide - Tier 3 Brawler

Structure Strength (LL&RL) +4
SRM/4 Range +15%
SRM/4 Cooldown +15%
SRM/4 Heat Gen -15%

Got rid of the negative movement quirks that existed.


Kintaro -18 Tier 3 Support

LRM/5 Cooldown +15%
LRM/5 Heat Gen -15%
Laser Duration -8%

Again I kept any other positive movement quirsk mechs had.


Awesome Pretty Baby - Tier 5 Skirmisher

Structure Strength CT +20
Structure Strength LT +10
Structure Strength RT +10
Large Laser Cooldown +50% *25x2
Large Laser Range +25%
Large Laser Heat Gen -25%
Missile Weapon Cooldown +12%

I did also remove the the negative quirks from PB. Also note that some of these older mechs that do not yet have the mechlab visual treatment dictated some of our quirk decisions based on the lack of missile tubes.


Thunderbolt 5S - Tier 5 Skirmisher

Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10
Large Laser Range +25%
Large Laser Cooldown +25%
Medium Laser Duration -25%
Medium Laser Heat Gen -25%
Missile Weapon Cooldown +12%

Jenner JR7-D - Tier 2 Brawler

SRM/4 Range +10%


Hunchback 4SP - Tier 4 Brawler

Additional Armor (RT&LT) +9
Additional Structure (RT&LT) +12
SRM/6 Cooldown +20%
SRM/6 Range +20%
Medium Laser Duration -20%
Medium Laser Heat Gen -20%

Dragon 1N - Tier 5 Support

Additional Structure CT +24
Additional Structure RA +6
AC/5 Cooldown +50% 25x2
ER-LL Cooldown +25%
ER-LL Duration -25%
Energy Weapon Range +16%

Dragon FANG - Tier 5 Skirmisher

Additional Structure CT +24
Additional Structure RA +6
AC/10 Cooldown +25%
AC/10 Velocity +25%
Large Pulse Cooldown +25%
Large Pulse Range +25%
Energy Weapon Heat Gen -12%

[Glythe]

KraftySOT, on 17 October 2014 - 06:48 AM, said:

There are 5 mechs. Timberwolf. Direwhale. Jagerbomb. Wubshee. Doomcrow.

If Quirks lead to one more viable tier 1 build. You have more diversity.

You are deluding yourself if you think the HBK with those quirks is going to be added to that list as a viable build.

CapperDeluxe, on 17 October 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

You can still put a Gauss on a Hunchback 4G if you want, you just won't get the bonuses. There's no negatives involved.

That's a nice thought but it isn't true to a min/max gamer. If you get a reward for doing option A and you get no reward for doing option B then suddenly option A is favored.

Giving a bonus to option A and not giving a bonus to option B does in fact penalize option B. Option B still weighs the same and has the same heat/etc. Option A has basically cheated now and has "better stats".

Just by staying the same Option B has been given a negative by proxy.

[Mercules]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

What there isn't a choice between? The AC/20 HBK-4G and anything else you could ever have done on the HBK-4G. That lack of choice sucks, and is something I was rather strenuously hoping the new quirks system would avoid.

You can still mount two ERPPCs and MGs on it and get a nice benefit to the PPCs.

I'm sorry that the Iconic Battletech/Mechwarrior AC/20 mech gets a boost for actually using an AC/20. What a shame the game might actually be influenced by the lore it is based off of. Next up people will be going over to Starwars:The Old Republic and complaining that choosing the Jedi class limits their choices as to do more damage they have to equip a lightsaber instead of having bare knuckle brawling as a viable option for Jedi.

[UnsafePilot]

I don't really understand how this system is turning people who were running the lower tier mechs and loving their diversity of builds into min/maxers who feel like they wont be able to run anything except the quirk buffed builds.

Those seem like mutually exclusive viewpoints to me.

Edited by UnsafePilot, 17 October 2014 - 10:38 AM.

[Mothykins]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

People, you’re seriously, super overreacting and misinterpreting the whole think. Especially you, Krafty.

The argument isn’t “This system removes all customization ever and it sucks”, it’s “what happened to the split bonuses where ‘Mechs got some general assists and then some more weapon-specific bonuses to go on top of those?”

It’s the case where the HBK-4G now has two completely worthless additional ballistic hardpoints because any build not using the AC/20 is dumb beyond comprehension, whereas the case was supposed to be that the HBK-4G could use, say, a dual AC/5 build and still gain 12.5% benefits to its choice of weapons, but not the other 12.5% benefit it would’ve gotten for the AC/20 in specific.

I’m with Oogalook on this one. What happened to the split buffs that were supposed to help enable everybody’s builds? Sure, the HBK-4G would still be encouraged to use the AC/20, but players were also supposed to be able to load up builds they personally enjoyed and still derive benefit from the system. With the proposed, narrowly-targeted system of buffs, most ‘Mechs are looking more as if they’re going to be even more crushingly underperforming than ever before if they don’t hew to what is, effectively, the one single build the system allows them.

Now, I get it. The TT diehards are overjoyed that there will be a system in place which, in many cases, strengthens stock builds because TT diehards hate customization and awesomeness and would be equally overjoyed if the game forced stock ‘Mechs on everyone in every game mode and the ‘Mechlab was excised from the game completely. The ultracomps don’t really care what the quirk system does because they’re cruising around in T1s or T2s as it is and figure that anyone in a T5 deserves whatever they get because they’re already too stupid to use something that wins games.

Both valid opinions from their respective viewpoints, though I still have to wonder why the TT folks are still here when every MW game to date has had a ‘MechLab. But whether or not the battlefield sees more diversity, as people are claiming it will, the system as proposed is heavily constricting ’Mechlab diversity and effectively forcing one single, narrow build upon every (Inner Sphere) chassis in the game. If you’re an HBK-4G that liked Gauss Rifles instead of AC/20s? TOO BAD NO BUFFS FOR JOO. BUY A GRIDIRON, FOO’. You’re an HBK-4H player that liked to run large lasers in the thing’s torso energy slots over the autocannon because that’s how you rolled when you were mastering it out? TOO BAD NO BUFFS FOR JOO. THEY DON’T EVEN MAKE YOUR ‘MECH YET, FOO’.

Admittedly, in the latter case serious buffs were unlikely as it stands, but the HBK-4H is permitted the use of two weapon systems – AC/10s and medium lasers. Two. Those are the only two guns in the game it’s allowed to use, if it wants to try and derive any benefit from the new measures in place to try and shore it up above the junkheap tiers. Now, its AC/10 and its medium lasers may be pretty dang bawss – but that doesn’t help you a single bloody bit.

Yes yes, I get it, Krafty.

“If what you had before was [X] number of T4 builds, and what you have now is [X] number of T4 builds + 1 T3 build…HOW ARE YOU LOSING?”

Technically, of course, I’m not – but all those T4 builds are, in fact, effectively losing power because the entire game is getting a hefty power boost with these new quirks. Your T4 build’s position relative to the rest of the game is objectively worse, and for a lot of folks it’s a really bitter pill to swallow, especially when they were expecting split buffs that let off a little bit of the pressure. You and I both know, Krafty, that a large enough incentive towards a particular behavior is exactly the same thing as a hefty punishment levied against all other behaviors.

So, what are you losing if you started with [X] T4 builds and ended with [X] T4 builds and 1x T3 build? The knowledge that your particular T4 build was, despite still being a T4 build, one of the best fits you could put on the chassis. Your large laser-equipped HBK-4H is now objectively worse than a stock-armament-ONLY HBK-4H, not just subjectively worse for people who like autocannons.

Diversity on the battlefield is improved, but only at the cost of diversity in the ‘MechLab, which has been heavily impacted by the proposed narrow-field quirks system. Some of us prefer MechLab diversity to battlefield diversity, and wish to preserve the freedom to equip whatever we like on our ‘Mechs and not be castigated for playing something other than the one viable post-quirks build for that chassis.

A split buff, delivering half its effect to a specific weapon and the other half to a general family of weapons, would at least take the sting out of being told that what we like to run is bad and crap and should never see the light of day.

This.

[Scratx]

Taking a look at the new mechs listed.... oh my.

Oxide : Decent buff to SRM4's, eliminated negative movement quirks, slightly harder to leg.

Kintaro 18 : LRM5's get a decent buff as well, lasers get faster burn time. Keeps positive movement quirks.

Pretty Baby : Same structure bonuses, Large Lasers MEGA-BUFFED, missile cooldown also gets a decent buff. Large Laser boat, this looks like. Oh, negative quirks flushed too.

Thunderbolt 5S : Left and Right Torsos structure buffed, Large and Medium Lasers get good buffs, missile cooldown buffed.

Jenner D : SRM4 range small buff. Yeah, tier 2 doesn't get much love.

Hunchback 4SP : Both torsos get armor and structure buff, SRM6 and MedLaser buffs. Good stuff.

Dragon 1N : CT structure mega-buff, RA structure buffed as well. ERLL gets a good buff... AC5 mega-buffed (about AC2 firing speed O_o ), all energy weapons' range buffed. This one is going to be fun.

Dragon FANG : Same structure buffs as 1N, AC10 and LPL buffed, all energy weapon heat generation buffed.


Some of these buffs are awesome. Others not so much. But damn, that walking CT isn't going to be so easily destroyed anymore.

[CheeseyPeas]

UnsafePilot, on 17 October 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

I don't really understand how this system is turning people who were running the lower tier mechs and loving their diversity of builds into min/maxers who feel like they wont be able to run anything except the quirk buffed builds.

Those seem like mutually exclusive viewpoints to me.

It comes down to being gimped in comparison to anyone running the builds that got the quirks, everyone using them gets higher dps/range etc so your build is actually being made weaker in comparison because you are going to be taking more damage at longer range and not going to be on a level playing field.

[CalderMort]

It's always fun reading through the forums when a new feature is coming up. There are those that are always convinced that these new features will ruin the game beyond repair, even though they have yet to try it. But what do I know?

There are mechs that have certain iconic roles. Trying to play these roles as of now, typically results in death and very low rewards. There are also mechs that just don't compete well. The quirk system attempts to address that problem by giving buffs to those mechs in order to make them more viable than they are now. I see that there are those that are upset because the quirks don't cover the weapons they like to use. Even though they will still benefit from other quirks applied to the mech. They are convinced that their mech will be somehow punished if they don't use what is suggested. They want to use an AC5 instead of the quirk boosted AC20. That's fine, go ahead. The AC5 weighs less, has a faster firing rate, produces less heat, and has a longer range. The AC5 allows for more ammo and potentially larger, or more weapons of other types that could still benefit from other quirks. For those who want to run the AC20, this gives them a chance to run this weapon with a better chance of it being competitive before it's blown to smithereens by a pilot, causing your mech to overheat, or never getting into an effective range to use it properly.

Some of these people want the same quirks applied across the board to all weapons in that family for that mech variant. The AC5 should have all the same advantages as the AC20. I understand this idea except pilots will find a way to exploit this system. If I could get 2 or more AC5 on this mech, each firing faster, with a longer range, plus with quirks I can purchase from the mechlab...you get the idea. Mind you this is just an example. But if this can be done, pilots will find a way, and then there will be many threads calling for the quirks to be removed and weapons nerfed.

There are those who upset because their mech won't be leaps and bounds better than the other mechs out there now. The game would be more competitive. I don't see the problem.

Overall, I like the new quirks coming. It might let us see a bit more flavor in mechs, playstyle, and weapons on the field. And that is a good thing. And for those who hate it and refuse to go along with it, we know. You'll probably stop playing, demand a refund, or whatever. And we'll see you in the next change because you're still here.

In closing, try it first and then give constructive suggestions.

[UnsafePilot]

Action Mac, on 17 October 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

It comes down to being gimped in comparison to anyone running the builds that got the quirks, everyone using them gets higher dps/range etc so your build is actually being made weaker in comparison because you are going to be taking more damage at longer range and not going to be on a level playing field.

They're currently comfortable with running builds that are weaker in comparison to the tier 1/meta mechs. How does adding a quirk buffed build that can actually compete turn someone who was fine with being sub-optimal into someone who can't accept it?

Edited by UnsafePilot, 17 October 2014 - 10:53 AM.

[Scratx]

... Dragon 1N's AC5, with Fast Fire = 60% cooldown reduction.

Cooldown is 0.664s, equivalent to 7.5 DPS.

This Dragon variant is going to be a very very nasty cavalry mech. Dual AC5, with each AC5 firing at about the same fire rate as an AC2?.... that's 15 DPS in just the ACs.

[STEF_]

This thread shows incredible posts....

There are a lot of tier 5 mechs that are going to received some bonus making them a little more viable AND there are people whining about it????? LOL

There are quirks coming, giving us more TT flavours to our mechs AND there are people whining about that??? again LOL

edit: Ok, I'm completely supporting PGI in this one

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 17 October 2014 - 10:54 AM.

[1453 R]

Mercules, on 17 October 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

You can still mount two ERPPCs and MGs on it and get a nice benefit to the PPCs.

I'm sorry that the Iconic Battletech/Mechwarrior AC/20 mech gets a boost for actually using an AC/20. What a shame the game might actually be influenced by the lore it is based off of. Next up people will be going over to Starwars:The Old Republic and complaining that choosing the Jedi class limits their choices as to do more damage they have to equip a lightsaber instead of having bare knuckle brawling as a viable option for Jedi.

Mercules, on 17 October 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

You can still mount two ERPPCs and MGs on it and get a nice benefit to the PPCs.

I'm sorry that the Iconic Battletech/Mechwarrior AC/20 mech gets a boost for actually using an AC/20. What a shame the game might actually be influenced by the lore it is based off of. Next up people will be going over to Starwars:The Old Republic and complaining that choosing the Jedi class limits their choices as to do more damage they have to equip a lightsaber instead of having bare knuckle brawling as a viable option for Jedi.

TT purists who hate customization, the 'MechLab, and any 'Mech which is not run strictly and purely stock really shouldn't have much say in the customization aspects of the game. Or at least not total control over it.

Of course the HBK-4G should get AC/20 buffs. The point a few of us were hoping to make is that maybe all that massive cowling and ammunition feeds and all the stuff it needs to be an awesome AC/20 machine might, maybe, possibly, extend to builds which use other ballistics, as well? Not as strongly, of course; 12.5% buffs would have been sufficient, with the extra 12.5% strictly applying to the AC/20, but you'd figure all that extra ballistic support equipment in that big stonkin' hunch wouldn't be totally useless with anything else, hmm?

The argument isn't "The HBK should never be an AC/20 'Mech", it's "The fact that this system is essentially 'You're playing a Gauss Rifle (large single ballistic) instead of an AC/20 (large single ballistic) in your HBK-4G? JOO GET NOZING!' kinda sucks, doesn't it?"

UnsafePilot, on 17 October 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

They're currently comfortable with running builds that are weaker in comparison to the tier 1/meta mechs. How does adding a quirk buffed build that can actually compete suddenly turn someone who was fine with being sub-optimal into someone who can't accept it?

Some players enjoy taking a sub-optimal chassis and making it into the best-performing 'Mech they can, pushing its performance as high as is possible and experimenting with it to see what sort of surprises they can find to make it sit up and dance.

The new quirks system completely and entirely eliminates that sort of experimentation - the highest possible performance in any given chassis is blind-stupid obvious, and nothing else the 'Mech does will ever even remotely compare to what it can do by following the one single build outlined by its given quirks.

Some of us are protesting the narrow focus of the quirks because we like playing in the 'Mechlab/Smurfy as much as we do on the field and Piranha is telling us to stop doing that.

[Mercules]

Action Mac, on 17 October 2014 - 10:43 AM, said:

It comes down to being gimped in comparison to anyone running the builds that got the quirks, everyone using them gets higher dps/range etc so your build is actually being made weaker in comparison because you are going to be taking more damage at longer range and not going to be on a level playing field.

Hint: You are not on a level playing field now. Right now you are on a playing field with 5 foot divots all over it. Some places are level with the rest of the ground but the majority are lower. Quirks are going to be filling in some of the holes at least some.

[CheeseyPeas]

UnsafePilot, on 17 October 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

They're currently comfortable with running builds that are weaker in comparison to the tier 1/meta mechs. How does adding a quirk buffed build that can actually compete suddenly turn someone who was fine with being sub-optimal into someone who can't accept it?

Maybe because now every mech that has quirks and and the "suggested" build has a distinct advantage over them, which may well be most of the mechs on the field as opposed to just the tier 1 mechs.

[Kensaisama]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

The argument isn't "The HBK should never be an AC/20 'Mech", it's "The fact that this system is essentially 'You're playing a Gauss Rifle (large single ballistic) instead of an AC/20 (large single ballistic) in your HBK-4G? JOO GET NOZING!' kinda sucks, doesn't it?"

Im thinking you need to pick a mech that doesn't have a Gauss Rifle variant for your example.

Edited by Kensaisama, 17 October 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Action Mac, on 17 October 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Maybe because now every mech that has quirks and and the "suggested" build has a distinct advantage over them, which may well be most of the mechs on the field as opposed to just the tier 1 mechs.

It's not a "suggested" build. It's the variant's OFFICIAL build per lore. Go read a book. If you want to change your mech to get on the metawagon, then more power to you. Now, you'll have more competition and if that's not a good thing, then you are in the wrong game.

[1453 R]

Kensaisama, on 17 October 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

Im thinking you need to pick a mech that doesn't have a Gauss Rifle varient for your example.

On the contrary, the Gridiron only makes the argument stronger.

"Want to put a Gauss Rifle in your Hunchback? Gotta buy the Hero version, foo'! Crack that wallet or go home!"

Is that the sort of message you want to be sending to your player base, if you were Piranha? Because it's totally not the message I'd want to be sending if I were Piranha.

[Mercules]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

TT purists who hate customization, the 'MechLab, and any 'Mech which is not run strictly and purely stock really shouldn't have much say in the customization aspects of the game. Or at least not total control over it.

Why? Last I checked this game was based off Battletech where there isn't customization, a mechlab, and typically not many mechs not run strictly and purely stock. Customization is a benefit, not a right.

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Of course the HBK-4G should get AC/20 buffs. The point a few of us were hoping to make is that maybe all that massive cowling and ammunition feeds and all the stuff it needs to be an awesome AC/20 machine might, maybe, possibly, extend to builds which use other ballistics, as well? Not as strongly, of course; 12.5% buffs would have been sufficient, with the extra 12.5% strictly applying to the AC/20, but you'd figure all that extra ballistic support equipment in that big stonkin' hunch wouldn't be totally useless with anything else, hmm?

The argument isn't "The HBK should never be an AC/20 'Mech", it's "The fact that this system is essentially 'You're playing a Gauss Rifle (large single ballistic) instead of an AC/20 (large single ballistic) in your HBK-4G? JOO GET NOZING!' kinda sucks, doesn't it?"

Yep... Sucks that the Gridiron will probably get a Gauss boost and that a different HBK gets an AC/10 boost. I mean you have NO options for running a Hunchback with a different ballistic option.

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Some of us are protesting the narrow focus of the quirks because we like playing in the 'Mechlab/Smurfy as much as we do on the field and Piranha is telling us to stop doing that.

Really? Because I think looking for hidden gems in the NON-obvious buffs would be right up your ally. You did notice the HBK-4G also gets less heat and more range from it's energy weapons, right? So you load on two ERPPCs and someone spots your HBK-4G and assumes they can stand at 600+m and not get hit by the HBK-4G that is "obviously" running an AC/20 and MLs.... Meanwhile you pop two PPCs into them at 850m and do just as much damage as the AC/20.

[AlmightyAeng]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

A split buff, delivering half its effect to a specific weapon and the other half to a general family of weapons, would at least take the sting out of being told that what we like to run is bad and crap and should never see the light of day.

Lol, you mean like exactly what the Hunchback is getting? Buff to AC/20, buff to energy weapons.

You're just pissed that the specific weapon and weapon family buffs aren't in the same tree. Se la vie.

[Belorion]

Glythe, on 17 October 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

You are deluding yourself if you think the HBK with those quirks is going to be added to that list as a viable build.

That's a nice thought but it isn't true to a min/max gamer. If you get a reward for doing option A and you get no reward for doing option B then suddenly option A is favored.

Giving a bonus to option A and not giving a bonus to option B does in fact penalize option B. Option B still weighs the same and has the same heat/etc. Option A has basically cheated now and has "better stats".

Just by staying the same Option B has been given a negative by proxy.

You must not be a min max gamer.

If Option B is superior to Option A then they will run Option B.
If Option A is superior to Option B then they will run Option A.

The quirks may or may not make one superior to the other, so if A is getting buffed, they will only use A if with the buffs it is superior to B. If by some miracle they become eq, or effectively eq, then you will see both.