122 replies to this topic

[Lucky Noob]

I realy love it now, Finaly i can play my 3 L with Narc + Tag and nobody calls me Noob anymore.

[Mercules]

parman01, on 25 October 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

Please tell me how skillful is the act of cowardly sitting in the back waiting for your team to provide locks and then spam fire button. I fail to see that. Are you trying to say that it's not easy mode? Auto-aim weapons in FPS game is generally very bad idea. But I understand it caters to people who don't want challenge in the game and prefer racking up easy damage and kills.

Those probably are not the people hitting you with LRMs unless you are an astonishingly BAD player. Those people sitting int he back firing at random red squares barely hit anything. Only if a bad player bumbles out into the the wrong place at the wrong time do those players get a kill.

Basically the power of the LRM system is inverse to the skill of the player it is targeting. To make it easier for some of you to understand:
Bad Player Targeted = LRM Good!

[Tincan Nightmare]

LRM's are not a problem in high level competitive play because an organized team can outfit themselves to counter them. Any organized team can make sure that every player has AMS, and that they are bringing along at least one ECM mech. Plus with voice communications they can easily call out warnings for spotters using TAG, if someones NARC'ed, or if a UAV has been deployed (and to shoot it down). Coupled with the ability to call out targets for focused fire with pinpoint damage, and the slow speed of LRM's, it is no wonder missiles are not used at the top tier. Now compare that to players who mostly (if not exclusively) PUG. No communications besides typing it out, no guarantee of ECM coverage, and the possibility that you might be the only person on your team even carrying an AMS. Throw in the ability of the MM to create matches where one team may be LRM heavy with TAG, NARC, ECM, and UAV's, against a team that has none of that, and that is where the complaints from LRM's begin. Maybe the simplest answer would be to turn off indirect fire in PUG matches, and only allow it in organized team battles.

I also have an issue with the many comments about how anyone complaining about LRM's must be players in slow assaults standing in the open. Assault mechs are in the game and, yes, are very slow. That also means that to move from one point to the other takes longer for them and makes them very vulnerable to LRM's if spotted. So does that mean assault mechs should be played as stationary turrets, never to move for fear of LRM's? Its ironic that tanks were developed during WWI to restore mobility to ground forces, as infantry could no longer advance against the firepower of machine guns and artillery, but that the main advice in MWO for mechs, the modern version of armored vehicle, is to engage in trench warfare and cower in cover for fear of LRM's. The concept that 'L2P and use cover' fixes everything is horribly naive, since you cannot remain in cover the entire match and must sooner or later leave it. Unless, that is, your willing to surrender the initiative to the enemy team entirely.

[DarthPeanut]

I understand the need for LRMs to have a place in the game, even though I no longer have use for them and do not personally like them.

The problem is not the LRM really itself but the mechanics of their targeting in this game and the byproduct play style it typically creates.

It promotes the slow turtled up play of tonnage laying back 3rd string. Especially assaults who LRM. That armor is effectively out of the fight and the LRMs they packed do not make up for the loss in armor up front IMO.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 25 October 2014 - 02:13 PM.

[Kjudoon]

KuroNyra, on 25 October 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

LRM are not just poin&click.
They require situationnal awareness.

Is the target in range?
Is he behind a cover?
Does he have cover near him?
Does the Angle of my missiles hight enought to avoid them hitting the obstacle near me?
Does he have an AMS covering him?
Is he suceptible to disappear because moving quickly or already almost dead?



"LRM = 0 Skills" is a complete bullsh!t said only by the one's who never ever tryied them.

I would like to point out I've challenged other extremely good pilots to show how LRMs are "no skill" and a few have taken it up. Now again, these are GOOD pilots who often get up on the leaderboards when it comes to DF weapons or brawling. The videos they often showed okay ability and their scores of 1-3 kills is a good low/average game. But when you look at them critically, you see many wasted opportunities or things practiced LRM pilots would not have wasted, OR risked themselves like a brawler and took lots of unneccessary damage. They survived these things because they are very skilled at brawling and those skills worked very well for them. Ultimately, they were LRMishing because they were bored and left the role of LRM support.

But they could have had so much better scores.

[King of the Woad]

LOL - turn them on in organized play and off in PUGs? In other words, remove them.

They are primarily a suppression device. The problem occurs when people don't realize it. And I don't really need red boxes to suppress with lrms.

[Kjudoon]

King of the Woad, on 25 October 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

LOL - turn them on in organized play and off in PUGs? In other words, remove them.

They are primarily a suppression device. The problem occurs when people don't realize it. And I don't really need red boxes to suppress with lrms.

That's like saying a grenade launcher's purpose is to scare the enemy, and shouldn't/can't kill anything. This isn't G.I.Joe where red lasers and blue lasers only hurt equipment and everyone jumps out in time to be safe.

[King of the Woad]

Kjudoon, on 25 October 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

That's like saying a grenade launcher's purpose is to scare the enemy, and shouldn't/can't kill anything. This isn't G.I.Joe where red lasers and blue lasers only hurt equipment and everyone jumps out in time to be safe.

That's not what I'm saying. I am saying that as an instrument of death, LRMs are not efficient and the players that use them for kills are a bit delusional. What I AM saying is that they are primarily a suppression weapon.

Willie Pete can kill too, but it's primary use is spotting and suppression.

Could you be a bit less antagonistic please?

[Kjudoon]

Was trying to be humorous.... forgot the emoji.

[King of the Woad]

One more thing:

Sometimes I fire a 5pack just to see where AMS comes from. My teammates, even when I explain it, don't seem to get it. I just get "crappy LRMs" from them.

Hard to teach people, sometimes.

[orcrist86]

Thats an advanced technique known as LRM scouting

[Lucky Noob]

Tincan Nightmare, on 25 October 2014 - 01:42 PM, said:

LRM's are not a problem in high level competitive play because an organized team can outfit themselves to counter them. Any organized team can make sure that every player has AMS, and that they are bringing along at least one ECM mech. Plus with voice communications they can easily call out warnings for spotters using TAG, if someones NARC'ed, or if a UAV has been deployed (and to shoot it down). Coupled with the ability to call out targets for focused fire with pinpoint damage, and the slow speed of LRM's, it is no wonder missiles are not used at the top tier. Now compare that to players who mostly (if not exclusively) PUG. No communications besides typing it out, no guarantee of ECM coverage, and the possibility that you might be the only person on your team even carrying an AMS. Throw in the ability of the MM to create matches where one team may be LRM heavy with TAG, NARC, ECM, and UAV's, against a team that has none of that, and that is where the complaints from LRM's begin. Maybe the simplest answer would be to turn off indirect fire in PUG matches, and only allow it in organized team battles.

I also have an issue with the many comments about how anyone complaining about LRM's must be players in slow assaults standing in the open. Assault mechs are in the game and, yes, are very slow. That also means that to move from one point to the other takes longer for them and makes them very vulnerable to LRM's if spotted. So does that mean assault mechs should be played as stationary turrets, never to move for fear of LRM's? Its ironic that tanks were developed during WWI to restore mobility to ground forces, as infantry could no longer advance against the firepower of machine guns and artillery, but that the main advice in MWO for mechs, the modern version of armored vehicle, is to engage in trench warfare and cower in cover for fear of LRM's. The concept that 'L2P and use cover' fixes everything is horribly naive, since you cannot remain in cover the entire match and must sooner or later leave it. Unless, that is, your willing to surrender the initiative to the enemy team entirely.

Thats why the putted in the new reward System.

It will Help because it encourage Player to try different Roles.

Like the Harasser, Go long Way around the Enemy and get him from the Flank, draw his attention so he start fire or even walks to you then disengage again, Rinse and repeat from another Side.

Jenners who realy start to Hunt down Missleboats in packs. Mediums who use there Imense Firepower to protect the own Assaults and assist em in Advancing.

Quick Trebuchets who jumps out from the Side Fire an Volley and disengage.

All this Playstyles are now rewarded well and we will see em rise.

They shoud be in any group like an heavy Missle Boat for Coverfire so your own troups can advance.

i just hope it works and we finaly see all this Niche Mechs shine.

[Kjudoon]

orcrist86, on 25 October 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

Thats an advanced technique known as LRM scouting

Scouting by fire is a time honored military tactic. It works here even better as streams of AMS give away position for half the enemy team.

[-VooDoo-]

And don't confuse different play styles with skill, No play style for an LRM boat requires skill. Just cause someone waits for locks or follows a team or does anything else for that matter doesn't mean that action was difficult or required skill. You wait for a red square and click a button, everything else that happens in between that just increases or decreases your chance of hitting. Wasn't actually hard. You don't have to lead targets, pinpoint damage, or other skills that have to be developed over time to be effective..

RED SQUARE - CLICK BUTTON, that's about it....and hey you don't even have to get the red square part either. Someone else is likely doing that....so really it's just CLICK BUTTON.

[-VooDoo-]

1. Only weapon in the game that doesn't require LOS to damage target

2. Longest natural firing distance

3. Does not suffer damage reduction penalty

LRM's can do upwards of 60 points of damage in a lob...every few seconds, and with narc, tag and UAV's get hitting by all of them is pretty common. They can kill anything that tries to move, except a light, in seconds. Especially where LRM boats are in groups...which they usually are.

I'm not saying get rid of them...but something in the dynamic has to change imo.

[STEF_]

Not true at all.
Imo, Lrm are the easiest weapon to avoid.
Cover, ecm, ams, radar depr, and... COVER!

When I get bored at aiming and I pilot a support mech with lrm, I must really pilot very well, never to get in bad position, understand really well what is happening, or I would be eaten by lights or a good gauss in the face.
So, piloting a lurm requires skills too, imo.

edit: I must add again a word: COVER!

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 26 October 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[-VooDoo-]

Positioning is common sense, not skill. If a group of lights hunt you and find you it really has nothing to do with skill...they just happen to find you. Not going to reiterate all the points that have been made already, the fact is there is an unbalance. Boats need to stop patting themselves on the back about all the "skill" they have attained. It's ridiculous.

[J0anna]

Jazz Hands, on 24 October 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

For months I have played with an open mind trying not to get irritated over stupid stuff...which every game has. This LRM non-sense is out of [redacted] control though and I can barely stand to play anymore. It's part of the game and I know it will never change...so why complain I suppose.

I just can't help seeing all this boats every game and picturing them coloring in their Dora the explorer coloring books before the match starts. I just can't see how it's fun and/or entertaining on any level with such monotonous game play as an LRM boat.

I know nobody cares, just venting on this topic...

You're fairly new, so I can understand your frustration. Over some time you'll get better and you'll see quite a bit less of them in drops, simply put, better players really don't boat them. If you want to speed up the process, join a clan and drop in group, all of a sudden you'll see nobody bothers with LRM's. Not to mention, that it's fairly easy to break line of site and avoid them (or find the usual cover spots and ignore them) Bottom line, there's a reason why you never see them in competitive play, once you discover their weaknesses, you'll realize they are more of a nuisance than a death sentence.

[STEF_]

Jazz Hands, on 26 October 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Positioning is common sense, not skill. If a group of lights hunt you and find you it really has nothing to do with skill...they just happen to find you. Not going to reiterate all the points that have been made already, the fact is there is an unbalance. Boats need to stop patting themselves on the back about all the "skill" they have attained. It's ridiculous.

Again, not true.
And I'm not a lurm boat pilot.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Stefka Kerensky, on 26 October 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Not true at all.
Imo, Lrm are the easiest weapon to avoid.
Cover, ecm, ams, radar depr, and... COVER!

When I get bored at aiming and I pilot a support mech with lrm, I must really pilot very well, never to get in bad position, understand really well what is happening, or I would be eaten by lights or a good gauss in the face.
So, piloting a lurm requires skills too, imo.

edit: I must add again a word: COVER!

Ok I'm not saying that using LRM's don't take skill, as you do have to be aware of several factors so your not wasting shots. But your whole statement can basically be boiled down to 'blob up with the team and shoot LRM's from within the group, and possess a little situational awareness.' Lights could only hunt you down if you try and hide at the rear of your group, instead of staying up with them.

And depending on which map your on, and where the fighting takes place, cover can be very scarce at times. Especially with the steep angle LRM's come down at. AMS can help reduce damage, but normally it is never going to stop it all unless someones firing an LRM5 at you, and ECM and radar dep. are no use when you get NARC'ed or a UAV is floating over your head. Its very easy to miss a UAV, and you have no way to know when you've been NARC'ed, so many times you only learn of those two when LRM's start raining down on your head.

LRM's have been an ongoing issue in balance since closed beta, where lurmaggedon reared its ugly head, and it stems from the indirect fire ability. While it is not necessarily 'OP', that doesn't mean LRM mechanics are in a good place and shouldn't be revisited. The simple fact that they are used heavily in PUG matches, but almost never in the higher player brackets, screams that something is wrong with there implementation.