724 replies to this topic

[hybrid black]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

Science!

Not like itll change their minds. Its their perspective. Thats never going to change. They believe theres a grind, so theres a grind. They want huge stables of mechs, so their grind is longer than ours.

But fact is, you can go from Trial to Direwolf in less than 100 matches.

We have made joke a ccaunts and i have made any where from 9-14 mill after the cadet bonous...

Its not the grind thst really is the problem its the fact that you need all upgrades the best engine and all that if they moved to s battle value system not class this would not be the case

[Tynan]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

MOAR CBILLS is just bad news.

And this is where we'll never agree. This isn't an MMO, where the game stops when the grind is over, it's a game where you're not really playing the game at all until you finish the first grind. The quicker that is--the faster you make new players competitive, the better, especially once CW's out since they'll just be a liability in there otherwise.

I see where you're coming from, but I'd rather have a game that's punishing on the back end than on the front. I don't think it's healthy for the game as a whole.

[KraftySOT]

And lets have some fun with math...because this thread is dildoes.

Mr Beefy has 251 posts. I dont know how many of them are about cbill whines...but lets just pretend they all are.

Lets say each post took 30 seconds. Thats 125 minutes. Lets say 6 minutes a match, thats 20 matches. Lets say 100k a match.

Mr Beefy could have made 2 million cbills (3 million with premium) in the time he's spent on the forums. Conservatively speaking.

If he wants to grab some tag and narc now, lets say 150k average, spends more time in matches, he could be at 2.5 or even 3 million without premium time.

So theres that.

Alexander MacTaggart, on 27 October 2014 - 11:20 AM, said:

Nope, math still doesn't work.

$5mil for a medium (more like $8mil+ after after-market upgrades) is $24mil per chassis (if you only buy 3 variants). There are 10 medium chassis in the game (discounting clan mediums which would skew it even harder), so that's ~$240 million c-bills for not even all the mediums.

Not counting upgrades.

Also if you already own the upgrade, the engine, etc, its only paying for endo and DHS, if they dont already have them, which the expensive ones already have.

Go by just the stock prices. Upgrades are on you.

Tynan, on 27 October 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

And this is where we'll never agree. This isn't an MMO, where the game stops when the grind is over, it's a game where you're not really playing the game at all until you finish the first grind. The quicker that is--the faster you make new players competitive, the better, especially once CW's out since they'll just be a liability in there otherwise.

I see where you're coming from, but I'd rather have a game that's punishing on the back end than on the front. I don't think it's healthy for the game as a whole.

Fair enough thats a reasonable logical opinion. I just disagree, because I do think it "stops". Once you have a Timby, Wubshee, Dire, Jagerbomb, maxed out, your grind is over. You really only need one. Heck you can live on a maxed out Jenner with the new rewards.

The initial grind to be competitive and not suck, is really, really short as it is. Making it shorter will have a bell curve effect where youre seeing diminishing returns, then actual loss.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Not counting upgrades.

Also if you already own the upgrade, the engine, etc, its only paying for endo and DHS, if they dont already have them, which the expensive ones already have.

Go by just the stock prices. Upgrades are on you.

You don't upgrade your mechs? You leave SHS in them, no endo, stock engines?

I don't feel like that's a genuine stance to take. Almost nobody actually leaves their mechs stock.

e: Unless you're one of those people who only has one engine of each rating, I suppose. You game the system by moving it between mechs? Wouldn't that be an argument for an income increase so you could just buy an engine for each mech?

Edited by Alexander MacTaggart, 27 October 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[KraftySOT]

hybrid black, on 27 October 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

We have made joke a ccaunts and i have made any where from 9-14 mill after the cadet bonous...

Its not the grind thst really is the problem its the fact that you need all upgrades the best engine and all that if they moved to s battle value system not class this would not be the case

Depends on what you buy, some already come decked out just with a shoddy load out. Yer DHS, XL, etc is there.

Then if you dont want that engine, you now own it, and can plop it into something else, lessening that over all cost.

I dont pay to upgrade anything but DHS and endo, because I already have every engine, etc. So after I bought say the Shadowhawk, my upgrade was 350 for endo, and I had to buy another SRM6 (strangely) and that was that. I already had the engine I needed for it.

Jager was the same thing, I paid for nothing other than the mech because I already had 2 ac20s, 2 gauss, the engine I needed, etc...dont need DHS on those builds, or endo (too many crits hurting ammo capacity)

[The Boz]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Making it shorter will have a bell curve effect where youre seeing diminishing returns, then actual loss.

I see you're trying to use big boy words and phrases, these don't mean what you think they mean.

[KraftySOT]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 27 October 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

You don't upgrade your mechs? You leave SHS in them, no endo, stock engines?

I don't feel like that's a genuine stance to take. Almost nobody actually leaves their mechs stock.

No but after you upgrade one, you have the leftovers for another one.

Endo and DHS are all thats purchased generally, so its 1.85 mil ontop of each mech, nothing more. And every mech doesnt even use those.

No need for either on my dual gauss Jager.

[Tynan]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

And lets have some fun with math...because this thread is dildoes.

Mr Beefy has 251 posts. I dont know how many of them are about cbill whines...but lets just pretend they all are.

Lets say each post took 30 seconds. Thats 125 minutes. Lets say 6 minutes a match, thats 20 matches. Lets say 100k a match.

Mr Beefy could have made 2 million cbills (3 million with premium) in the time he's spent on the forums. Conservatively speaking.

If he wants to grab some tag and narc now, lets say 150k average, spends more time in matches, he could be at 2.5 or even 3 million without premium time.

So theres that.



Not counting upgrades.

Also if you already own the upgrade, the engine, etc, its only paying for endo and DHS, if they dont already have them, which the expensive ones already have.

Go by just the stock prices. Upgrades are on you.



Fair enough thats a reasonable logical opinion. I just disagree, because I do think it "stops". Once you have a Timby, Wubshee, Dire, Jagerbomb, maxed out, your grind is over. You really only need one. Heck you can live on a maxed out Jenner with the new rewards.

The initial grind to be competitive and not suck, is really, really short as it is. Making it shorter will have a bell curve effect where youre seeing diminishing returns, then actual loss.

I'm curious, then, how many people stop playing once that grind is over vs. how many buy things like more mechs, camo, mechbays, and other things that support the game. Because if I'm right (and maybe I'm not!) then the game makes more money from better C-Bill earnings because more people are spending money on mechbays and camo. Obviously there's a point where this diminishes, but I don't think we're even remotely close to that point.

If you're concerned about the grind being too short for the people who just meta to competitive mechs and never buy anything else...they don't buy anything for real money now, they keep playing competitively for the challenge and nothing would change if they got more C-Bills because they wouldn't spend them on anything besides what they already have. The result being...who cares? It makes no difference whatsoever since they keep playing regardless.

[KraftySOT]

And of course you can sell things, and diminish your cost further, if you so wanted.

Theres a few weapons like small lasers, shs, small pulse and such you can just sell off. Its not much but its there.

I realized I had like 200 SHS and sold them all off. Was a nice little boost.

Tynan, on 27 October 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

I'm curious, then, how many people stop playing once that grind is over vs. how many buy things like more mechs, camo, mechbays, and other things that support the game. Because if I'm right (and maybe I'm not!) then the game makes more money from better C-Bill earnings because more people are spending money on mechbays and camo. Obviously there's a point where this diminishes, but I don't think we're even remotely close to that point.

If you're concerned about the grind being too short for the people who just meta to competitive mechs and never buy anything else...they don't buy anything for real money now, they keep playing competitively for the challenge and nothing would change if they got more C-Bills because they wouldn't spend them on anything besides what they already have. The result being...who cares? It makes no difference whatsoever since they keep playing regardless.

Probably alot.

Theres an enormous number of disenfranchised former players. Most of whom left because theres no CW. Battles have no context.

Theres no reason to buy another mech, because theres nothing else to do with it, other than what you can do with what you have, unless what you have, isnt satisfying.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Tynan, on 27 October 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

I'm curious, then, how many people stop playing once that grind is over vs. how many buy things like more mechs, camo, mechbays, and other things that support the game. Because if I'm right (and maybe I'm not!) then the game makes more money from better C-Bill earnings because more people are spending money on mechbays and camo. Obviously there's a point where this diminishes, but I don't think we're even remotely close to that point.

If you're concerned about the grind being too short for the people who just meta to competitive mechs and never buy anything else...they don't buy anything for real money now, they keep playing competitively for the challenge and nothing would change if they got more C-Bills because they wouldn't spend them on anything besides what they already have. The result being...who cares? It makes no difference whatsoever since they keep playing regardless.

This is a Good Post, but I don't think Krafty will actually reply to it. He'll zero-in on something like saying you can't know how many people buy camo or restate that lessening the grind will get people to quit playing, and completely miss/ignore the point.

[KraftySOT]

And who knows Quirks....that may make more mechs more desireable. Maybe theyll up payments accordingly. I have no idea.

But as it stands today, there are no quirks, and no cw, so were going on what we have.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

Theres no reason to buy another mech, because theres nothing else to do with it, other than what you can do with what you have, unless what you have, isnt satisfying.

The point of buying mechs is to have another mech. You know, the content in this game.

Not all of us beeline to the current meta-mech and only play that.

[hybrid black]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Depends on what you buy, some already come decked out just with a shoddy load out. Yer DHS, XL, etc is there.

Then if you dont want that engine, you now own it, and can plop it into something else, lessening that over all cost.

I dont pay to upgrade anything but DHS and endo, because I already have every engine, etc. So after I bought say the Shadowhawk, my upgrade was 350 for endo, and I had to buy another SRM6 (strangely) and that was that. I already had the engine I needed for it.

Jager was the same thing, I paid for nothing other than the mech because I already had 2 ac20s, 2 gauss, the engine I needed, etc...dont need DHS on those builds, or endo (too many crits hurting ammo capacity)

Yes some mechs dont need all the upgrades but most do also no repair and rearm makes it that there is no reason to not take maxed out builds...
If battle value and rearm/repair were added this would be a hole new game and more new player friendly

[Tynan]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

And of course you can sell things, and diminish your cost further, if you so wanted.

Theres a few weapons like small lasers, shs, small pulse and such you can just sell off. Its not much but its there.

I realized I had like 200 SHS and sold them all off. Was a nice little boost.



Probably alot.

Theres an enormous number of disenfranchised former players. Most of whom left because theres no CW. Battles have no context.

Theres no reason to buy another mech, because theres nothing else to do with it, other than what you can do with what you have, unless what you have, isnt satisfying.

You're not even disagreeing with me here. They left because of balance problems, because of lack of CW, because of ghost heat, whatever, NOT because they ran out of things to buy.

[KraftySOT]

Tynan, on 27 October 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

I'm curious, then, how many people stop playing once that grind is over vs. how many buy things like more mechs, camo, mechbays, and other things that support the game. Because if I'm right (and maybe I'm not!) then the game makes more money from better C-Bill earnings because more people are spending money on mechbays and camo. Obviously there's a point where this diminishes, but I don't think we're even remotely close to that point.

If you're concerned about the grind being too short for the people who just meta to competitive mechs and never buy anything else...they don't buy anything for real money now, they keep playing competitively for the challenge and nothing would change if they got more C-Bills because they wouldn't spend them on anything besides what they already have. The result being...who cares? It makes no difference whatsoever since they keep playing regardless.

And I wanted to add, the people who dont spend to avoid the grind now, also dont spend anyways. Its nullified.

It makes no difference either way. If you throw more cbills at them, or dont.

[MischiefSC]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

And lets have some fun with math...because this thread is dildoes.

Mr Beefy has 251 posts. I dont know how many of them are about cbill whines...but lets just pretend they all are.

Lets say each post took 30 seconds. Thats 125 minutes. Lets say 6 minutes a match, thats 20 matches. Lets say 100k a match.

Mr Beefy could have made 2 million cbills (3 million with premium) in the time he's spent on the forums. Conservatively speaking.

If he wants to grab some tag and narc now, lets say 150k average, spends more time in matches, he could be at 2.5 or even 3 million without premium time.

So theres that.



Not counting upgrades.

Also if you already own the upgrade, the engine, etc, its only paying for endo and DHS, if they dont already have them, which the expensive ones already have.

Go by just the stock prices. Upgrades are on you.



Fair enough thats a reasonable logical opinion. I just disagree, because I do think it "stops". Once you have a Timby, Wubshee, Dire, Jagerbomb, maxed out, your grind is over. You really only need one. Heck you can live on a maxed out Jenner with the new rewards.

The initial grind to be competitive and not suck, is really, really short as it is. Making it shorter will have a bell curve effect where youre seeing diminishing returns, then actual loss.

Your logic only works if someone doesn't want to play competitively or get really into CW, or really do more than derp around and provide content for paying customers.

It also doesn't work for actually making money for PGI; which is the real point of an in game economy. To drive real cash sales.

People who don't pay cash money for MW:O are in it to provide content (i.e. be something to shoot at/get shot by) people who pay money from a business perspective. That's how F2P works; the free players provide content for the paying customers.

What the paying folks are largely saying is that the grind is contrary to my paying cash - I and most others won't pay cash to avoid a grind, we'll avoid a grind by playing something else. We pay cash to reward/treat ourselves and get something that looks 'fun'. Hence why mech bundles are so profitable. That's never going to change.

What's not going to happen is someone saying 'hey, Dragons would be fun, I'll grind 40-60 hours to get 3 of them just to see if they are fun to play.' The current grind gives me absolutely no incentive to try older, existing mechs and see if I would enjoy them. If I did find that out I'd buy mech bays (so I'm not selling them) MC (to pretty them up) and a Flame/Fang hero mech.

Same thing with House packs when CW comes out. PGI would be insane not to make the option; bundles of mechs geared (and painted) towards each House/Clan. Similar to this Resistance Pack, only it wouldn't even have to be new mechs. Just existing and maybe one to variant of existing mechs with a house-specific paint, colors and premium time, maybe a cockpit bonus item or two. People would spend cash on that....

Unless to use it they'd need to grind regular mechs. My time is valuable to me. I've spent over 800 million cbills in mwo, I've got 36 mech bays. I've spent an unreasonable amount of money on this game and will likely continue to do so if I feel motivated.

The grind for cbills does not motivate me to play MW:O though. It motivates me to play something else.

So as someone who is an avowed F2P player your take on 'the grind' isn't the point. I'm not trying to offend nor insult you here; I'm probably an idiot for spending the money on games that I do. That aside my being an idiot is why the game is F2P and you're able to play it for free, me and idiots like me.

The issue isn't how to make the grind work for you and people like you. It's how to make the grind promote me and people like me spending more real cash.

[KraftySOT]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 27 October 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

The point of buying mechs is to have another mech. You know, the content in this game.

Not all of us beeline to the current meta-mech and only play that.

Not everyone thinks that way.

And thats also the source of you thinking theres a grind and that its too long. Youre buying mechs to buy more mechs.

Stop it.

The grind is gone.

[LordKnightFandragon]

hybrid black, on 27 October 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

We have made joke a ccaunts and i have made any where from 9-14 mill after the cadet bonous...

Its not the grind thst really is the problem its the fact that you need all upgrades the best engine and all that if they moved to s battle value system not class this would not be the case

And 9-14 million buys you 1 medium mech, all tricked out....or some cheapie heavy.....Now, you get to do it 2 more times without the cadet bonus.......

My Alt acct made like 7-8 million with the cadet bonus and I didnt really do all that well, nevr dealt more then maybe 300 dmg with those trials......it was all gone after I got the CN9A and equipped it with w/e....Dem DHS....I really wish they cam down in price lol...

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 27 October 2014 - 11:42 AM.

[Mothykins]

Krafty, I did some math for you. Here's the cost of just all the LIGHTS in the game you can purchase for Cbills.

91,920,933

[KraftySOT]

MischiefSC, on 27 October 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

Your logic only works if someone doesn't want to play competitively or get really into CW, or really do more than derp around and provide content for paying customers.

It also doesn't work for actually making money for PGI; which is the real point of an in game economy. To drive real cash sales.

People who don't pay cash money for MW:O are in it to provide content (i.e. be something to shoot at/get shot by) people who pay money from a business perspective. That's how F2P works; the free players provide content for the paying customers.

What the paying folks are largely saying is that the grind is contrary to my paying cash - I and most others won't pay cash to avoid a grind, we'll avoid a grind by playing something else. We pay cash to reward/treat ourselves and get something that looks 'fun'. Hence why mech bundles are so profitable. That's never going to change.

What's not going to happen is someone saying 'hey, Dragons would be fun, I'll grind 40-60 hours to get 3 of them just to see if they are fun to play.' The current grind gives me absolutely no incentive to try older, existing mechs and see if I would enjoy them. If I did find that out I'd buy mech bays (so I'm not selling them) MC (to pretty them up) and a Flame/Fang hero mech.

Same thing with House packs when CW comes out. PGI would be insane not to make the option; bundles of mechs geared (and painted) towards each House/Clan. Similar to this Resistance Pack, only it wouldn't even have to be new mechs. Just existing and maybe one to variant of existing mechs with a house-specific paint, colors and premium time, maybe a cockpit bonus item or two. People would spend cash on that....

Unless to use it they'd need to grind regular mechs. My time is valuable to me. I've spent over 800 million cbills in mwo, I've got 36 mech bays. I've spent an unreasonable amount of money on this game and will likely continue to do so if I feel motivated.

The grind for cbills does not motivate me to play MW:O though. It motivates me to play something else.

So as someone who is an avowed F2P player your take on 'the grind' isn't the point. I'm not trying to offend nor insult you here; I'm probably an idiot for spending the money on games that I do. That aside my being an idiot is why the game is F2P and you're able to play it for free, me and idiots like me.

The issue isn't how to make the grind work for you and people like you. It's how to make the grind promote me and people like me spending more real cash.

Dont you think the cbills are where they are now because of the internal charts and data that show real money purchases vs cbill output?

I mean PGI has sucked before...maybe theyre sucking now.

But im pretty sure they have data that tells them what the MC purchases are like when cbills output is X, Y, and Z. That the payouts are part of their business design?

LordKnightFandragon, on 27 October 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

And 9-14 million buys you 1 medium mech, all tricked out....or some cheapie heavy.....Now, you get to do it 2 more times without the cadet bonus.......

My Alt acct made like 7-8 million with the cadet bonus and I didnt really do all that well, nevr dealt more then maybe 300 dmg with those trials......it was all gone after I got the CN9A and equipped it with w/e....Dem DHS....I really wish they cam down in price lol...

And another weekend of playing gets you a Direwolf instead of a medium.

Hey I did it too. My first purchase was a Hunchback. It was terribad. I was a new player once.

Cavale, on 27 October 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Krafty, I did some math for you. Here's the cost of just all the LIGHTS in the game you can purchase for Cbills.

91,920,933

Just IS?