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Why Is There Elo Separation For Leaderboard Tournaments?

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#81 Wintersdark

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 03:49 PM

View PostLupin, on 26 October 2014 - 04:51 AM, said:

Add another question to this topic.
You do not think that so called Pro players do not use Alt accounts for Tournaments?


Why would you?

Lets assume you make an Alt account for the tournament. You need to level the mech you're going to use, buy modules, etc. By the time you've done that, you'll have pushed your Elo way the hell up.

So lets assume you buy all the mechs you need with MC, and don't use modules at all as you'd need lots of GXP for any modules, which would push your Elo up.

So, your alt account costs you a bunch of MC.

And you do that to.... umm... Have some random no-name on the leaderboard? Not your name? To win a small bit of MC - far less than the price of the mech used?

While I imagine some people might use alt accounts, I think it's highly unlikely it's common or any kind of serious attempt. Ultimately, if you're trying to rank in a tournament, you're doing it so people can see your name on the leaderboards. What's the point if you're using an alt account?

#82 EgoSlayer

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 04:29 PM

View PostAresye, on 26 October 2014 - 12:15 PM, said:


During peak play times, top tier players will get matched with other top tier players nearly every time. It is downright near impossible to get any score high enough to get on the leaderboard. I think I've seen a grand total of 4-5 individual games over the past 3 leaderboard tournies, where I've seen somebody in a high Elo match get a score high enough to count. It isn't impossible, but it's extremely unlikely to happen, and it certainly isn't going to happen to the same player 10 times in a weekend.

<snip>


Says the guy at the top of the Timberwolf Class board...

Seriously - this isn't a ladder skill tournament. Its for fun. If only the top skilled players are going to be winning there isn't any reason for the general populous to opt in to play - which is the whole purpose.

If you want skill only based rankings that's what the private leagues and the MWO tournament Series (assuming they are doing more) are for, and are segregated from the rest of the players.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 26 October 2014 - 04:30 PM.


#83 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 07:19 PM

View PostEgoSlayer, on 26 October 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:


Says the guy at the top of the Timberwolf Class board...

Seriously - this isn't a ladder skill tournament. Its for fun. If only the top skilled players are going to be winning there isn't any reason for the general populous to opt in to play - which is the whole purpose.

If you want skill only based rankings that's what the private leagues and the MWO tournament Series (assuming they are doing more) are for, and are segregated from the rest of the players.

To be fair, he wasnt at the top when he started the thread but he would've caught flak either way.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 26 October 2014 - 07:19 PM.


#84 Greenjulius

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 07:31 PM

It's hard to have sympathy for people who play what are considered to be the best mechs in the game, without dispute. ;)

#85 HBizzle

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 08:59 PM

View PostAresye, on 25 October 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Pretty much what the title says.

If we're doing a "Top X #" players for any kind of tournament, why is Elo active? Seems rather counter-intuitive. Not to mention it also inspires certain bad behaviors like people running alt accounts, suiciding multiple times in hopes of lowering Elo, etc, just to get on the leaderboard.

In a way I kind of feel that those in the higher Elo brackets actually end up getting the shorter end of the stick. Each game played is full of high Elo players, so in the end nobody ends up scoring well, whereas on the other side of the spectrum, the lower Elo brackets give players a wider window to excel.

So let's say Low Elo Guy found a better build and learned a few more tricks to piloting. He's able to smash the competition and consistently get high scores.

Meanwhile, High Elo Guy is struggling to get over 3 kills or 500 damage. He knows all the tricks, is running the most efficient builds, and using the most efficient tactics. Unfortunately, every player in the game is exactly at that same level, so nobody excels.

High Elo Guy could very likely beat Low Elo Guy repeatedly if matched together, but in terms of the tournament, Low Elo Guy will get on the leaderboard, while High Elo Guy doesn't.

The end result of this kind of system is it inspires High Elo Guy to take drastic measures if he wants on the leaderboard, whether it's creating an alt account, suiciding dozens - hundreds of times to lower his Elo, or playing in really odd off-peak hours.

If we're going to do a leaderboard based competition, there shouldn't be separate Elo brackets. After all, isn't the whole point of a leaderboard to basically show who the really good pilots are? Not, "Who the really good pilots are...in each Elo bracket."

Perhaps the answer to this should be implementing some form of tournament-only queue, or some way of the MM picking matches without Elo based on who's opted into the tournament.



Now, I'm sure this post will end up rustling some jimmies, because no matter how I word it, the overall message of this post basically says, "I don't think many people on the leaderboard deserve to be there." I can't sugar coat the underlying message, but while it may sound elitist, I'm not taking myself out of the equation (aka: this would affect me too).

A leaderboard based tournament should be based on who the best players are, and separate Elo brackets is counter-intuitive to that, by (ironically) making it harder on the better players while giving players in lower Elo brackets more room to work with.

If players want to compete to show they've got the talent to place in the top 15, they shouldn't be "protected" by Elo from facing the better players, and by opting in to the tournament, it should come with the full understanding that they will be facing players from any Elo, at any skill level.



All of this!


I kept doing drops with all sorts of high level comp players. Felt like Jman5 with QQ was stalking me at one point. LOL.

In those drops I was running a Griffin and would put out less damage then some of the better mechs they were running, which in turn meant they were getting more kills. I got all the way to 13 in the Griffins on Friday, but it was back below top 15 after that. That being said Odwalla, who was on top of the griffins for a while, is a great pilot, and deserves that spot totally. Was dropping with him a few times and he was out performing me in a very similar Grif-1E build.

#86 Rat of the Legion Vega

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 10:40 PM

I'm starting to think the should just turn ELO off permanently in the solo que and let random chance sort it out. The MM is and always has been virtually useless in this game in terms of securing even matches.

#87 Rizzwind

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 11:05 PM

View PostWintersdark, on 26 October 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:


Why would you?

Lets assume you make an Alt account for the tournament. You need to level the mech you're going to use, buy modules, etc. By the time you've done that, you'll have pushed your Elo way the hell up.

So lets assume you buy all the mechs you need with MC, and don't use modules at all as you'd need lots of GXP for any modules, which would push your Elo up.

So, your alt account costs you a bunch of MC.

And you do that to.... umm... Have some random no-name on the leaderboard? Not your name? To win a small bit of MC - far less than the price of the mech used?

While I imagine some people might use alt accounts, I think it's highly unlikely it's common or any kind of serious attempt. Ultimately, if you're trying to rank in a tournament, you're doing it so people can see your name on the leaderboards. What's the point if you're using an alt account?



Alt account plays with the same lvl Elo guys as my main account so Elo is working like it should for a FPS Sim or other type of game other then chess. (It's not)

#88 MischiefSC

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 11:37 PM

View PostJames T Kirk., on 26 October 2014 - 11:05 PM, said:



Alt account plays with the same lvl Elo guys as my main account so Elo is working like it should for a FPS Sim or other type of game other then chess. (It's not)


... That, or you're just average Elo on your regular account. Like most people.

So if Elo doesn't work that means all the people in the top competitive groups, their Elo is exactly the same as everyone else? if Elo didn't work there wouldn't be any real separation in Elo. Which their is. Before Elo it wasn't hard to win 80% or more of your games if you were even a little above average. Now nobody does. It's not constant, unending stomps. A fraction as many teams full of window licking derptards. Now it's a couple a match.

The biggest problem with Elo is that it does work. You mentioned chess; please identify for me in Arpad Elos equation exactly where 'chess' is specified or what function in it makes it unable to solve for the relatively static ~8% value you represent out of your team in each match.

I'd love to see it. You're talking about disproving some fundamental functions of mathematics. That's a lifetime of fame and fortune! lay it on us, I want to say that I saw it here first. Please identify for me how it's impossible to identify the impact of 1 person out of a group of 12 over a sufficient sample size.

I've been waiting for this one for years, since this debate started. Please, I hope you're the guy who can do it. Let's see your mathematical proof.

#89 Rizzwind

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Posted 26 October 2014 - 11:53 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 26 October 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:


... That, or you're just average Elo on your regular account. Like most people.

So if Elo doesn't work that means all the people in the top competitive groups, their Elo is exactly the same as everyone else? if Elo didn't work there wouldn't be any real separation in Elo. Which their is. Before Elo it wasn't hard to win 80% or more of your games if you were even a little above average. Now nobody does. It's not constant, unending stomps. A fraction as many teams full of window licking derptards. Now it's a couple a match.

The biggest problem with Elo is that it does work. You mentioned chess; please identify for me in Arpad Elos equation exactly where 'chess' is specified or what function in it makes it unable to solve for the relatively static ~8% value you represent out of your team in each match.

I'd love to see it. You're talking about disproving some fundamental functions of mathematics. That's a lifetime of fame and fortune! lay it on us, I want to say that I saw it here first. Please identify for me how it's impossible to identify the impact of 1 person out of a group of 12 over a sufficient sample size.

I've been waiting for this one for years, since this debate started. Please, I hope you're the guy who can do it. Let's see your mathematical proof.


Yea it still is unending stomps. mostly 12-2 or 2-12 can't get much more stomp then that. Some times your on the stomping side still makes the game less fun.

Edited by James T Kirk., 26 October 2014 - 11:58 PM.


#90 Aresye

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 12:58 AM

View PostEgoSlayer, on 26 October 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:


Says the guy at the top of the Timberwolf Class board...

Seriously - this isn't a ladder skill tournament. Its for fun. If only the top skilled players are going to be winning there isn't any reason for the general populous to opt in to play - which is the whole purpose.

If you want skill only based rankings that's what the private leagues and the MWO tournament Series (assuming they are doing more) are for, and are segregated from the rest of the players.

View PostWM Quicksilver, on 26 October 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

To be fair, he wasnt at the top when he started the thread but he would've caught flak either way.


Think people forgot about this part in my OP:

Quote

Now, I'm sure this post will end up rustling some jimmies, because no matter how I word it, the overall message of this post basically says, "I don't think many people on the leaderboard deserve to be there." I can't sugar coat the underlying message, but while it may sound elitist, I'm not taking myself out of the equation (aka: this would affect me too).


I'd rather not be on the leaderboard, than feel the leaderboard isn't representing the right guys. I have the luxury of being in pacific time, so I have a few hours after prime time to continue slugging it through. It shouldn't be any coincidence my highest scoring matches all somehow occur an hour or two after prime time, when the majority of people I usually see in every game log out for the night.

View PostMischiefSC, on 26 October 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

So if Elo doesn't work that means all the people in the top competitive groups, their Elo is exactly the same as everyone else? if Elo didn't work there wouldn't be any real separation in Elo. Which their is. Before Elo it wasn't hard to win 80% or more of your games if you were even a little above average. Now nobody does. It's not constant, unending stomps. A fraction as many teams full of window licking derptards. Now it's a couple a match.


Stomps are still a regular occurrence because of the snowballing effect as a team loses players. There was a time back when they tried to implement the soft game mode selection where nearly every game I had was neck to neck, but alas, many people didn't want that, so we're back to stomp city.

For regular gameplay I completely agree that Elo is necessary, especially in the solo queue. I just don't feel it has any place in a ranked tournament, because the ability to score well (with the current scoring system) is entirely dependent on being able to carry a team while doing the majority of damage, which is next to impossible when the rest of the team can carry its own. Not to say carries don't happen in high Elo drops, it's just less obvious. A player getting 3 kills, 6 assists, and 800 damage when the rest of the team does 250-400 is pretty normal for a high Elo game, but it's still a fairly rare occurrence.

Whether it's a change to the scoring system, separate brackets, etc, the point is the current system is easy to abuse, and there's a lot of players that are absolutely insane pilots that should be on the leaderboards, that aren't.

#91 Lily from animove

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 01:20 AM

View PostMcgral18, on 26 October 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:


It's changing for the next one.

https://twitter.com/...153509297995777


Oh pls no, this would be stupid and useless, people will abuse this sytsem even more than it is already possible. this opens new farming possibilities beyong peoples imagination. Every build will run narc and tagger, and all mechs not able to do are useless. Hail to the SCR, which can easily spare tagger and a narc, + some juicy laservomit. or probably some lrm's to gather laods of money out o its own taggers. No, I don't like the rolewarfare stuff, this is even more "random". have dc in your lance, well bad for ya, no chance for lanceformation points. Or having some wanna be snipers running away. Because in the end of that tourney, you will be even more deended on your teammates than anything else. This tournemane will also be heavily dominated by the ecm lights, easy for flanking and hit and run scores. Easier to get lance boni since they will morelikely stick close to you. It will just make some variants obsolete by nature + will just make people start to abuse the way the system works instead of truly participating in rolewarfare.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eca7c60d495e283

start the game, run off like a boss to secure scouting. probably a few flankings as well.
get back, narc and tag evey mech from which you know it will die during the narc, loads of profit.
try to give everoyne the last blast with the ERLL.

grind your butt off so that enough lucky situations come together.

And honestly, I think being american is anyways already an advantage, because more europs play and europes mostly play more competitive. That is at least my experience here and in various other games I had. So in the end, you have a load of various factors influencing this anyways.

Sure a few may even down their elo to to get some easy matche,s but you will hardly find any system being proof to not be abused. But in the end, stop taking these tournaments too serious, the few bucks you get aren't worth it anyways. You cna use the rounament at leats to chekc where you are roughly located, but the real top of the top is very Luck dependend anyways. That one match where I and 3 others fired at the red CT opponents, would be the sifference between scoring 190 or 210 score. The difference between 5th or 1st, over the time of those 10 matches. Sololy dependend by hitreg sequence of X weapons hitting the target at the same time, also infleuences by latency. So taking the tournament real serious will just cause you to anger too often abut a ranodm factor. Yet the tournament will give you a slight hint where you are and how good you are compared to others. And it will show which chassis do how well compared to others.

View PostAresye, on 27 October 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:


Think people forgot about this part in my OP:


I'd rather not be on the leaderboard, than feel the leaderboard isn't representing the right guys. I have the luxury of being in pacific time, so I have a few hours after prime time to continue slugging it through. It shouldn't be any coincidence my highest scoring matches all somehow occur an hour or two after prime time, when the majority of people I usually see in every game log out for the night.



Stomps are still a regular occurrence because of the snowballing effect as a team loses players. There was a time back when they tried to implement the soft game mode selection where nearly every game I had was neck to neck, but alas, many people didn't want that, so we're back to stomp city.

For regular gameplay I completely agree that Elo is necessary, especially in the solo queue. I just don't feel it has any place in a ranked tournament, because the ability to score well (with the current scoring system) is entirely dependent on being able to carry a team while doing the majority of damage, which is next to impossible when the rest of the team can carry its own. Not to say carries don't happen in high Elo drops, it's just less obvious. A player getting 3 kills, 6 assists, and 800 damage when the rest of the team does 250-400 is pretty normal for a high Elo game, but it's still a fairly rare occurrence.

Whether it's a change to the scoring system, separate brackets, etc, the point is the current system is easy to abuse, and there's a lot of players that are absolutely insane pilots that should be on the leaderboards, that aren't.



but wouldn't that still cause your problem? when ther eis offtime and luck giveys your team and their team only low rnaked palyers, big profit. Would it be less random than now? I don't think so. I played on saturday morning when total offtime was, (quite early) eaily two gams above 200. Sunday, at non offtimes, not a single one reaching this. Thats why you shouldnot take the last gap serious. its luck and location dependend.

Edited by Lily from animove, 27 October 2014 - 01:28 AM.


#92 MischiefSC

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 02:31 AM

View PostAresye, on 27 October 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:


Think people forgot about this part in my OP:


I'd rather not be on the leaderboard, than feel the leaderboard isn't representing the right guys. I have the luxury of being in pacific time, so I have a few hours after prime time to continue slugging it through. It shouldn't be any coincidence my highest scoring matches all somehow occur an hour or two after prime time, when the majority of people I usually see in every game log out for the night.



Stomps are still a regular occurrence because of the snowballing effect as a team loses players. There was a time back when they tried to implement the soft game mode selection where nearly every game I had was neck to neck, but alas, many people didn't want that, so we're back to stomp city.

For regular gameplay I completely agree that Elo is necessary, especially in the solo queue. I just don't feel it has any place in a ranked tournament, because the ability to score well (with the current scoring system) is entirely dependent on being able to carry a team while doing the majority of damage, which is next to impossible when the rest of the team can carry its own. Not to say carries don't happen in high Elo drops, it's just less obvious. A player getting 3 kills, 6 assists, and 800 damage when the rest of the team does 250-400 is pretty normal for a high Elo game, but it's still a fairly rare occurrence.

Whether it's a change to the scoring system, separate brackets, etc, the point is the current system is easy to abuse, and there's a lot of players that are absolutely insane pilots that should be on the leaderboards, that aren't.


The problem with removing Elo from the scoring completely is then there's no point for anyone but 10 people or so to compete in most tournaments.

It's worth mentioning that PGI does these events as much for their own benefit as ours. Turnout, testing, gathering telemetry, driving player participation, etc. Any tournament needs to have as much appeal to as many people as possible.

So how do you fix that? I'm moving towards the new cash scoring system - I wish it was used to help accumulate match score.

Another big factor IMO is the poopsock factor. How do you remove that completely? I don't want to have to grind 400 matches over a weekend to place we. At one point I worked my way into 13th place for Banshees, but finally just ran out of ***** to give. It stopped being about skill and became about luck - doing better meant playing stupidly reckless and just running the odds for it to play out. Not trying to belittle the accomplishments of people who placed highly, it was a lot of work and effort and energy and skill for those who got there I don't doubt. What it was not is an enjoyable experience. It also highlighted for me how little money assaults can make now and my irritation with the compensation model in the game.

Top 3 by Elo bracket would be ideal but then you'd have to let people know their Elo, which creates a ton of other issues - people would quit, flip their **** and cry buckets on the forums.

However, we're coming back to that needing to be a reality sooner rather than later. Tournaments, CW, there's a lot of competitive aspects to the game. That just is what it is. There's going to be no hiding how competitive people are when CW comes out; why not start testing that water first with Elo brackets? Just let people know which bracket they are in. Cut it 6 ways, not 3, for general ranking.

Otherwise any other scoring mechanism we look at will suffer from the same issue - the narrowing of the bell curve at the top and reason to draw anyone else into playing.

#93 MrMarkusCZ

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 04:39 AM

I was curious about some names unknown to me at scoring table and yes - welcome newbies!

For example: Brolo El Cunado (Since 26 Sep 2014), Beaver66 (Since 04 Oct 2014), Succubusss (Since 25 Oct 2014), Sergei Pavlov (Since 04 Sep 2014)

Or "newbies"? :unsure:

#94 EgoSlayer

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 05:38 AM

View PostAresye, on 27 October 2014 - 12:58 AM, said:


Think people forgot about this part in my OP:


I'd rather not be on the leaderboard, than feel the leaderboard isn't representing the right guys. I have the luxury of being in pacific time, so I have a few hours after prime time to continue slugging it through. It shouldn't be any coincidence my highest scoring matches all somehow occur an hour or two after prime time, when the majority of people I usually see in every game log out for the night.
<snip>


I didn't forget, and if you'll read my post again you'll see why. You're mistake is that you think this is completely a skill ladder leader board. It isn't. It's for fun to get more people playing to collect data. It's a data gathering method where a large number of people can participate with a chance to win something.

If it was a skill ladder it wouldn't be unlimited matches to see who can get their perfect 10. Even so, I and a few others in this thread believe high skilled players will require less matches than lower skilled players because their skill allows them to recognize and take advantage of opportunities in the match. If it was a skill ladder there would be elimination rounds, there would be a limit on the number of rounds played and so on.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 27 October 2014 - 05:39 AM.


#95 RussianWolf

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 06:10 AM

hmmm. In Golf tournaments and bowling tournaments, weaker players get a "handicap" to inflate their score to be more competitive with the semi-pro players. ELO active during a tournament would effectively do the same thing. Better players have better teammates and opponents making it harder to get higher scores, while poor players get poor teammates and opponents making it easier for them (but since they are poor players, likely not too much help there).



MisChief, good to see you the other night in game. But I will point out one more time why ELO doesn't work here as everyone wants it to. Let's remove the 1v1 chess equation. Let's go to football. Yes, ELO works in football, right? Somewhat. Team A has an ELO and team B has an ELO, and that should be able to be used to make a prediction. But let's say Team A goes into the game with say a 2000 ELO rating. First play of the game, Their QB takes a big hit and is out of the game, back-up comes in. Guess what, that team's ELO just changed. Guy sucks and now their ELO is 1500.

Now take MWO, where in the Solo queue your team ELO changes every match. As many as 11 variables on your team change each and every match. The team dynamic between those players can't be assessed at all, but you expect ELO to be accurate. Just isn't mathematically feasible. Too many variables and too little chance of repeatable variables. ELO works were things remain pretty static, not when variables are constantly changing. Group queue, ELO should have more accuracy, and get better as the teams become more and more static in terms of players participating. Run a 12 man with the same players every game, and ELO is at its most accurate.

You can theoretically have a really bad player that dies in the opening second of every match, win every match giving him a Elite ELO ranking. HE hasn't contributed to a single match. You are asking too much from the math.

Last night, I decided to see how many people had opted in and were playing Locusts. I went in, fired my laser once getting me 6 damage. Stood in the open and watch the Lurms come for me. Team pulled out the win. If we were predicted to lose, then my ELO was wrongly pushed up, I sure as heck didn't deserve an ELO boost for THAT. If anything my ELO should have gone down with such a bonehead move.

By the way, with a score of 30, I'm ranked at 252 in the Locust. Not too many playing that critter.

Edited by RussianWolf, 27 October 2014 - 07:36 AM.


#96 Mark Brandhauber

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 02:18 PM

I starting to believe the ELO is something that can be altered by the gamemasters at pgi and for the course of the weekend they have been trolling me for some reason. There's noway I should be playing with the likes of proton and odwalla on a regular basis. I've seen them more times this weekend than i have over the last 6 months. In short this weekend has been long waits in searching, not fun at all; just a shite grind against the odds.

Edited by Mark Brandhauber, 27 October 2014 - 02:40 PM.


#97 Artgathan

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 02:48 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 26 October 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

Again, about 1/2 of your matches you can even lose points on. A bit less. You'll lose about 20 puts on those. You're going to still gain points on about 1/2 your wins, so you'd need to lose about 50 more than you win to drop about 400 or more points. That's going to take hard work and sandbagging a hundred matches.

That's like 10 hours or more of work and a significant risk of getting a ban. Why not just spend that same effort on winning?


Actually, statistically speaking you'll only lose points on ~25% of your matches. In ~50% of your matches there will be no change, and in ~25% you'll gain points.

The only time you can lose points is when the MM 'expects' you to win and you lose. If it expects you to lose and you lose, there's no change.

#98 Kain Demos

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 02:52 PM

View PostMark Brandhauber, on 25 October 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

I concur, after a short spree of success my elo has gotten the better of me and i cannot progress any further. But seriously the devs never work weekends so this is falling on deaf ears


Maybe that is what's happened to me. I got on a roll for a few weeks and started to make up for all of my "noob time" and finally got into the "green" on everything but once I got my w/l about 60 games over even I've been taking a plunge going days at a time with no kills or wins.

#99 Chuck Jager

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 03:24 PM

Simple
If I joined a gym for boxing and wanted to try a competitive environment it is not in anybodys interest for me to start in Madison Square Garden.

If you do not understand this, I can probably not explain it to you in a forum post

#100 Aresye

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Posted 27 October 2014 - 04:13 PM

View PostChuck YeaGurr, on 27 October 2014 - 03:24 PM, said:

Simple
If I joined a gym for boxing and wanted to try a competitive environment it is not in anybodys interest for me to start in Madison Square Garden.

If you do not understand this, I can probably not explain it to you in a forum post


You're discounting the fact that you would also not be ranked above the professional boxers in Madison Square Garden on a list of "Top 15 Boxers."





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