66 replies to this topic

[xe N on]

NovaFury, on 27 October 2014 - 10:04 AM, said:

If you're not running radar derp, start. It's night and day how you become effectively immune to indirect LRM fire.

Any cover that impedes LoS, even if it wouldn't stop missiles, now stops missiles.

Thanky for that advice sherlock, I'm running Radar Derp on any mech since release of the module ... even on my LRM one.

And yes, it helps. And yes you can cover. And yes you can use AMS. And yes you can use ECM. But 80% of people I playing with in PUGs simply walk in open field and die to a rain of million LRMs.

It is foolish. Yes. It would also happen if the enemy would equip lasers or any other weapon. But at least I could fire back.

In one game I shot 4 UAV of the enemy team nobody else was caring of while they got rained to death by LRMs ... (really they should increase the reward to 1000 xp per UAV ...)

Playing tactically doesn't help me if my team is running smiling into their death.

Edited by xe N on, 27 October 2014 - 10:14 AM.

[Glythe]

Pale Jackal, on 27 October 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:

I'm cool with nerfing some of the secondary effects (like screen shot and view obfuscation), or buffing the LRM20 slightly.

However, the fact 4 LRM5s require 4 hardpoints does matter.

The point remains that 4x LRM 5 with no Artemis are better than 1x LRM 20 with Artemis. That is a huge part of the problem. This game has power creep with newer mechs owning more hardpoints. That doesn't really help the game to say well I have more slots so this is worth more. Consolidated weight should always be worth more because it becomes harder to use two of that piece of equipment on any mech.

Basically I would be fine if 4X LRM 5 did more shake but the missiles missed a lot more and did less actual damage overall.

NovaFury, on 27 October 2014 - 09:53 AM, said:

The cute thing about stream-firing LRM5s is they can, and will, get intercepted down to the last missile if the enemy has AMS, wheras swarm-firing them will not.

They've added ghost heat to 5's now however, which makes that a choice you only wish to use if AMS is in fact intercepting 100% of your missiles. LRM20s being garbage due to missile accuracy is a big problem though.

There was no reason for them to make the LRM 20 have garbage accuracy. This is what I find bothersome. No one uses the LRM 100 nonsense builds anymore as ghost heat largely did away with things like that. But the fact that the small launcher is better in every way ruins a mech like the C1 catapult which was built to be pretty much the definitive IS LRM boat.

Edited by Glythe, 27 October 2014 - 10:16 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 October 2014 - 09:46 AM, said:

I wish that was why, even with Clan LRM's, the 20's just spread damage ALL over the place. It's brutal.

They did the same on TT, unless dice liked you. And I think it would be to powerful if the big swarms of missiles didn't sandpaper us.

[Koniving]

Glythe, on 27 October 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

To support this...

LRMs 10, 15, and 20 will fire 3 times in 10 seconds. This is consistent with most weapon systems (ML, LL, AC/20, Gauss rifle, etc).
The LRM 5 fires 4 times in 10 seconds.

Results:
After elites (Fast Fire)...
LRM-5: 3.09 seconds between firings. 2 tons.
0, 3.09, 6.18, 9.27. 20 damage. (4x)
LRM-10: 3.56 seconds between firings. 5 tons.
0, 3.56, 7.12. 30 damage. (3x)
LRM-15: 4.04 seconds between firings. 7 tons.
0, 4.04, 8.08. 45 damage. (3x)
LRM-20: 4.51 seconds between firings. 10 tons.
0, 4.51, 9.02. 60 damage. (3x)

Given this...
LRM-5 to LRM-10 is a gain of only 10 damage.
LRM-10 to LRM-15 is a gain of 15 damage.
LRM-15 to LRM-20 is a gain of only 15 damage.

Something is kinda off. Especially when you consider that often many of those will be shot down, and for the weight of one LRM-20 with Artemis and 1 ton of ammo, you can have 6 LRM-5s that deal 120 damage in 10 seconds (the effectiveness of 2 LRM-20s in only 12 tons). What is further, is that with 6 LRM-5s fired at the same time the ghost heat is negligible, and against a single AMS mech, you'll lose exactly 2 to 3 missiles (leaving you with 105 to 110 damage guaranteed to hit, every single time provided you're not in an urban area).

If you fire the LRM-5 3x in 10 seconds.... the difference between each upgrade is an even 15 damage increase in total potential damage. The 6 LRM-5 build would change from 120 damage to a 90 damage build, with 75 to 80 damage still guaranteed to hit when not in urban areas. (Its fun to mention that 6 LRM-5 builds are still far more CT focused than 4 LRM-15 + Artemis builds, too).

With the quirk system, the "one LRM-5" launcher mechs such as the Grasshopper and 4X will get their quirks upped so they won't suffer from an LRM-5 firing rate change.

Edited by Koniving, 27 October 2014 - 10:23 AM.

[Glythe]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 October 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

They did the same on TT, unless dice liked you. And I think it would be to powerful if the big swarms of missiles didn't sandpaper us.

That's fine.... give me dice rolls to affect enemy laser weapons then. It only "looked" like you hit me with that blast.... sorry you didn't roll a 7 so you missed.


Don't LRMs have enough things stacked against them so we don't need a % chance of the missile missing? If I keep the target locked (meaning direct line of fire) and the enemy is not in protective cover I kinda feel like 95% of the missiles should hit. Add tag and you should be closer to 99% hit rate. This is how the missiles used to work and it was fine even when each missile did a lot more damage overall and they had overlap explosion damage which made them deal more damage than their listed value.

I'm fine with pretty much 1 guaranteed missile missing for an LRM 20 IF an LRM 5 is setup with the same problem. But it looks more like an LRM 20 has at least 5 missiles missing an average size mech and a lot more miss the light mechs. Lights move faster and as such can break locks and get into cover. They do not need a bonus to missile evasion. OR if you want to put that in the game why not give a module for it (that competes with RD).

Edited by Glythe, 27 October 2014 - 10:27 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

xe N on, on 27 October 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

And yes, it helps. And yes you can cover. And yes you can use AMS. And yes you can use ECM. But 80% of people I playing with in PUGs simply walk in open field and die to a rain of million LRMs.

You are arguing about a weapons effectiveness based on the rampant stupidity you are seeing in 80% of your matches?

Come on man, doesn't that tell you something?

Those same stupid people would die to any weapon.

Joseph Mallan, on 27 October 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

They did the same on TT, unless dice liked you. And I think it would be to powerful if the big swarms of missiles didn't sandpaper us.

Yeah sorry, until we have "random" gauss shots, and "random" laser shots, I can't buy this argument.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 October 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

You are arguing about a weapons effectiveness based on the rampant stupidity you are seeing in 80% of your matches?

Come on man, doesn't that tell you something?

Those same stupid people would die to any weapon.



Yeah sorry, until we have "random" gauss shots, and "random" laser shots, I can't buy this argument.

It takes less time to load a cassette of 5 missiles than it does 20?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 October 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

It takes less time to load a cassette of 5 missiles than it does 20?

I'm fine with the rate of fire.

But when I fire my LRM 20, it does less effective damage than even two LRM 5's, or a single 10 or a single 15.

It's really just a bad weapon.

I actually ran a Timberwolf with 3 LRM 15's, instead of 2 LRM 20's, even with the Ghost Heat it's INFINITELY more effective.

LRM 20's are a waste of tonnage.

[xe N on]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 October 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Those same stupid people would die to any weapon.

Yes. But it would be much riskier for people to shoot at them.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

xe N on, on 27 October 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

Yes. But it would be much riskier for people to shoot at them.

How do you figure that? You think it's risky to pop out and plow someone with two Gauss shells and a pair of PPC's then back up into cover?

It actually takes less time.

If you are talking about indirect fire, SOMEONE is holding that lock, and indirect fire without artemis is pretty bad. It takes an insane amount of time to actually kill someone.

[Joseph Mallan]

Glythe, on 27 October 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

That's fine.... give me dice rolls to affect enemy laser weapons then. It only "looked" like you hit me with that blast.... sorry you didn't roll a 7 so you missed.


Don't LRMs have enough things stacked against them so we don't need a % chance of the missile missing? If I keep the target locked (meaning direct line of fire) and the enemy is not in protective cover I kinda feel like 95% of the missiles should hit. Add tag and you should be closer to 99% hit rate. This is how the missiles used to work and it was fine even when each missile did a lot more damage overall and they had overlap explosion damage which made them deal more damage than their listed value.

You have a percent of missiles already missing anyway, we are not hitting with all 20 as should be the case for a weapon like missiles.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 October 2014 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'm fine with the rate of fire.

But when I fire my LRM 20, it does less effective damage than even two LRM 5's, or a single 10 or a single 15.

It's really just a bad weapon.

I actually ran a Timberwolf with 3 LRM 15's, instead of 2 LRM 20's, even with the Ghost Heat it's INFINITELY more effective.

LRM 20's are a waste of tonnage.

Are you sure its less? I fire 4 LRM5s I figure I'm hitting with 2-5 missiles average of 3. So I'd be hitting with the 12 missiles average of a TT LRM20.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 October 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

You have a percent of missiles already missing anyway, we are not hitting with all 20 as should be the case for a weapon like missiles.


Are you sure its less? I fire 4 LRM5s I figure I'm hitting with 2-5 missiles average of 3. So I'd be hitting with the 12 missiles average of a TT LRM20.

LRM 5 with no AMS involved is putting 5 missiles into the CT of a mech.

LRM 20 with no AMS involved is spreading 20 missiles all over the damn place, and it seems like 5 of them miss.

[xe N on]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 October 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

How do you figure that? You think it's risky to pop out and plow someone with two Gauss shells and a pair of PPC's then back up into cover?

It actually takes less time.

If you are talking about indirect fire, SOMEONE is holding that lock, and indirect fire without artemis is pretty bad. It takes an insane amount of time to actually kill someone.

Look. Normally I play brawling mediums like SRM Griffins or SHDs. There are situations where you sneak behind an assault mech, alpha him in the rear torso and instantly kill him. However, there are also situation, were I get into melee make a minor mistake, get focused by two or more enemy players I didn't expect to be there and die within second or so. Sometimes I score 600+ damage and several kills in my GRF, sometimes I die quite early because I misjudged the situation.

It's a high risk high reward job.

However, I never made easier kills and easier damage then in my 4xLRM5 SHD or even better, 5xLRM10 SCR-D. There might be a problem if you got some good players with ECM that are up to protect the enemy group. However, in PUG games it is quite rare.

It's a low risk, high reward job.

If I wouldn't be a dying hard fan of brawling in a medium and simply would choose the most effective way in PUG games I would go for my LRM-mechs, especially a clan one (those clan LRMs are just great for PUG games because nobody bring an AMS anyway).

What does that tell you?

Edited by xe N on, 27 October 2014 - 10:45 AM.

[Zyllos]

The issue between effectiveness of smaller launchers and larger launchers is wholly due to how their tracking works. The entire LRM mechanics need to change.

• LRMs need the "SSRM" treatment to them, in groups of 5 LRMs called swarms.
  
• Each swarm has a preset size, regardless of what type of mech it's aiming at. (example: if the spread of a swarm is a 2.0m diameter, it will be 2.0m diameter if your firing at an Atlas and a Locust, it doesn't change).
  
• Tracking strength will reduce the diameter size of a swarm.
  
• The random location for which a swarm aim at follow the exact same mechanics of SSRMs.

This will fix the problems of LRM/5s hitting torso sections almost 100% of the time along with higher % of accuracy where the LRM/20s are spreading all over a mech with like 50% accuracy.

[mogs01gt]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 October 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

How do you figure that? You think it's risky to pop out and plow someone with two Gauss shells and a pair of PPC's then back up into cover?It actually takes less time.If you are talking about indirect fire, SOMEONE is holding that lock, and indirect fire without artemis is pretty bad. It takes an insane amount of time to actually kill someone.

exactly.

I dont understand the reason that it's the weapons fault when someone else is holding the lock or if its bad positioning. Most PP weapon will do more damage in less time than LRMs.

xe N on, on 27 October 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

However, I never made easier kills and easier damage then in my 4xLRM5 SHD or even better, 5xLRM10 SCR-D. There might be a problem if you got some good players with ECM that are up to protect the enemy group. However, in PUG games it is quite rare.
It's a low risk, high reward job.
If I wouldn't be a dying hard fan of brawling in a medium and simply would choose the most effective way in PUG games I would go for my LRM-mechs, especially a clan one (those clan LRMs are just great for PUG games because nobody bring an AMS anyway).
What does that tell you?

LRMs=low risk, decent to high reward, but very unreliable.

Edited by mogs01gt, 27 October 2014 - 10:52 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

xe N on, on 27 October 2014 - 10:42 AM, said:

Look. Normally I play brawling mediums like SRM Griffins or SHDs. There are situations where you sneak behind an assault mech, alpha him in the rear torso and instantly kill him. However, there are also situation, were I get into melee make a minor mistake, get focused by two or more enemy players I didn't expect to be there and die within second or so. Sometimes I score 600+ damage and several kills in my GRF, sometimes I die quite early because I misjudged the situation.

It's a high risk high reward job.

However, I never made easier kills and easier damage then in my 4xLRM5 SHD or even better, 5xLRM10 SCR-D. There might be a problem if you got some good players with ECM that are up to protect the enemy group. However, in PUG games it is quite rare.

It's a low risk, high reward job.

If I wouldn't be a dying hard fan of brawling in a medium and simply would choose the most effective way in PUG games I would go for my LRM-mechs, especially a clan one (those clan LRMs are just great for PUG games because nobody bring an AMS anyway).

What does that tell you?

And one AMS plows those builds, but no one brings it....because LRMs suck and prey on stupid/bad players. Good lord.

[Mechteric]

CapperDeluxe, on 27 October 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

I'd rather start with making it so that not every LRM that hits you appears to hit your cockpit. Then we could look at the numbers as opposed to the current mad screen shake and blinding explosions that make chaining a bunch of LRM5's the thing to do right now.

Widowmaker1981, on 27 October 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

if you have a problem with chained LRM5s can i suggest you equip an AMS? they will do next to nothing to you

Completely missing my point. My point is my mech is 98% armor and 2% cockpit (approx. don't care), so why is it that nearly all of the LRMs that are hitting me are everywhere but my cockpit (according to the paper doll), yet are all up in my cockpit view? It makes no sense. The same likely applies to autocannons (and primary reason why AC/2's got the nerf bat long ago).

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 27 October 2014 - 11:06 AM.

[RazorbeastFXK3]

I'm looking forward to carrying LRM20x4 when I start working on the Awesome 'Mech Variants.

[Destoroyah]

the LRM20 especially the IS version really needs help. The problem with the IS LRM 20 is the horrid accuracy even with artemis and shotting a atlas in the wide open you are almost garrented to miss with 4-5 missiles. The missle grouping really needs work for the 20 to make it semi-viable.

Radar Derp should be changed. It should of worked the opposite of the target decay module where instead of increasing target retention time it decreases the time it takes to loss lock so a radar derp and target decay would somewhat cancel each other out.

Edited by Destoroyah, 27 October 2014 - 12:00 PM.

[CygnusX7]

Too bad this game isn't real. We wouldn't have to read "XXX weapon is overpowered" complaints.