637 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 28 October 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

Theres this game called Hawken. No TT there



They DONT?!

Cause when Im direct firing those LRMs, a lock is required to be kept till they hit, if the spotters can fire and forget locks, then thats bullshit

There is no 'fire and forget' functionality to ANY guided weapon in the game. You lose lock, the missiles hit the last known spot. It's when they REGAIN lock things get really squirrly.

[Karl Streiger]

Kilo 40, on 28 October 2014 - 05:39 AM, said:

hilarious. excuse after excuse after excuse.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The whining about LRMs won't stop until there is an LRM Invulnerability module.

BS

there is a LRM module called ECM - but hey you have multiple ways to counter ECM that on the other hand improve LRMs that can be countered by other modules - sorry if you think the current implementation of Information warfare is a good solution - there is no hope for you.

and the current LRM main problem is a problem of information warfare - simple is simple

[Kjudoon]

StalaggtIKE, on 28 October 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

Ideally this is how CW should work.

If the whiners don't kill it in it's crib.

[Jetfire]

Here is how you fix LRM's. Clan LRMs fire is a fairly flat arc. IS LRMs fly in a high arc. Both types can only make a single adjustment to their flight path of more than say 45 degrees. They fly up then crash down. No multiple major course adjustments like a swarm of cruise missiles. A rock face should keep you very safe. Currently they will do some weird stuff to avoid rock and home on you and the attack angle is way too steep.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 October 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

So when did Forest Colony hills got high enough to stop LRMs? Or most River and Frozen City buildings? Sure I can power down and LRMs will home into the last known position i.e. exactly where I powered down. Sure I can turn left or right 90 degrees except that left is that same said cover (i.e. a wall in front of me) and right is too far from cover and in the open again.

Most of cover we have on all maps is either too low or not wide enough to affect LRMs with their current flight patterns as long as opposing LRM launchers aren't standing in nearly exact same spot. If two LRM mechs are at least 200m away from each other then at least one of them will always be able to rain on you even when you are standing behind cover. There are always exceptions and places that do provide solid cover, but they are either scarce or are in places where nobody fights in the first place.

If you want to just poo poo the suggestions, not learn to play and use them

Then you cant be helped.

[Cerlin]

Because the counter to LRMs was so hard....

Am I the only one who sees LRMS and says to the team "charge under their missiles!" and brawl them down?

I blame PGI's point system for this weekend competition. It basically rewarded LRM play because you can touch all the mechs with a slow mech. You didnt need to do most damage or solo kill, just touch all the mechs.

[Widowmaker1981]

Karl Streiger, on 28 October 2014 - 05:35 AM, said:

Should i kill the guy be the first in the few spots where you are secure of fire?

Maps are to crowded with 12 mens - heck sometimes i eat missiles that were not aimed at me at all.

Its complete stupid to say people should learn to use cover - when 6 out of 12 go for cover and the other 6 charge you can kill your self in the same moment - not so painfull

River City: LOADS of LRM cover

Crimson Straight: LOADS of LRM cover. and a giant covered area giving 100% immunity.

Tourmaline Desert: LOADS of LRM cover (but you need to think a bit creatively, the cover is above you)

The Mining Collective: Quite a lot of LRM cover, and LOADs of LOS breaks

Frozen City: A decent amount of LRM cover (admittedly mostly concentrated into one area) and a lot of LOS breaks

HPG: a decent but not huge amount of cover, except in the center of the map, where most of the fighting happens - you are 100% immune there.

Terra Therma: LOADS of LRM cover and huge mountains that block the flight paths of LRMs. Arguably the worst LRM map.

Forest Colony: Some LRM cover, not amazing amounts. bigass tunnel where you are immune, but its a pain to fight in. Small map makes it very easy to close on missile boats. 4th best LRM map

Canyon network: LOADS of line of sight breaks, but not a huge amount of effective cover due to the angle of the canyon sides. 3rd best LRM map.

Caustic Valley: Very little LRM cover, quite open so few LOS breaks too. Joint best LRM map.

Alpine Peaks: Very little LRM cover, quite open so few LOS breaks too. Joint best LRM map.

There are a total of 3 maps where you should have ANY issues, and 7+ maps where any half decent player can pretty much ignore LRMs. Seems unfair (on the LRMs) to me...

[Karl Streiger]

Cover here cover there - cover won't help you vs LRMs.

I wish we could have open maps - let see how that guy with his LRM face my ER-PPC,
or my AC 20?

LRMs are worthless because they do not enough damage - vs a determined enemy that spit at cover and move.

LRMs are only the PUG weapon of choice because people crowed them selfes in cover instead of movement.

anyhow - as soon as you leave cover you may get a 50point alpha into your mech...and the LRMs will simple finish what is left.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 28 October 2014 - 05:59 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Jetfire, on 28 October 2014 - 05:48 AM, said:

Here is how you fix LRM's. Clan LRMs fire is a fairly flat arc. IS LRMs fly in a high arc. Both types can only make a single adjustment to their flight path of more than say 45 degrees. They fly up then crash down. No multiple major course adjustments like a swarm of cruise missiles. A rock face should keep you very safe. Currently they will do some weird stuff to avoid rock and home on you and the attack angle is way too steep.

What you are seeing is the action of "Reacquiring" lock after it had been lost. LRMs have 4 target correction points from launch. If you lose lock, the missile will hit the last known location. These course points happen equidistant over the flight path. IF you lose the lock just after launch and are patient, and rewarded with it being reaquired a distance away, you will then watch the missiles serpentine in the sky like wild weasels and go after the mech again with maybe 1 correction point left. This can cause the sudden drop from above, or zig zag across the sky.

Also, the elevation and distance from your target to where you are shooting determines the angle the missile leaves the mech. If you are close, the arc will be flat. If you are a long distance, it's going to lob in there. If you're close enough, you can fire LRMs in the basement on HPG, or even under the parking garage on Crimson Straits. It's wonderful to watch the panic in some mechs eyes when a 40 tube broadside hits them from 210m away for the full blast and didn't hit the ceiling.

Next, if you are lower or higher than your target, you will get an adjusted flight path, often for the better.

Something to really chew on. If you sped up the missiles to 250m/s you would destroy the long game of LRMs because they would travel too fast for precise readjustments. Your short game would improve dramatically incentivizing LOS LRMishing. It would also decrease broken AMS buffs but not totally eliminate it, and therefore smoothing out the feast/famine cycle we're familiar with.

Oh... and often, we LRM pilots who know what they're doing, will use Betty against you, making her scream in panic, and see you dance for cover when a lowly LRM 5 has been fired in your direction to burn off some AMS and keep you from moving unimpeded. You really should want Betty to be removed. She works for us too.

[Artgathan]

Bad Things About LRMs:

• Require a lock to be effective
  
• IS Version have large minimum range
  
• Countered by Radar Deprivation, ECM, AMS
  
• Require you to keep your cross hairs on target to maintain lock
  
• Slow flight speed
  
• Spread Damage

Good Things about LRMs:

• Indirect Fire
  
• Screen Shake

[Glythe]

Artgathan, on 28 October 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Bad Things About LRMs:

• Terrible accuracy (LRM 15+20)

You forgot one

MischiefSC, on 27 October 2014 - 11:34 PM, said:

Speed up direct fire *significantly* but a nearly flat trajectory. Have them cluster tightly in direct fire, like Artemis SRMs.

You realize that long long ago during one of the many nerf/buff cycles Artemis with direct fire took all the missiles to the torso (not necessarily center). Back then only about 1-2 missiles would ever miss out of a 20 pack. When you added tag to Artemis the missiles pretty much all went to center torso.

Now what broke the system in this era was people using a LRM 100 build. So you fired 2 vollies and whatever you were shooting died. You didn't really need to do that though because you could core a fresh Atlas with a Catapult using 2x LRM 15 in about 6-8 shots.

Note that when missiles worked this way ballistics/ppcs were WAY better for causing pinpoint. Until LRMs return to this level of usefulness they will remain junk.

Russ asked for ideas for ECM and I suggested that ECM work like the targeting computer. If you have the small version it protects you and no one else. If you have the ECM mk VII then it works like it does now. Enjoy figuring out how to add ~7 tons to all those light mechs.

Edited by Glythe, 28 October 2014 - 06:07 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Glythe, on 28 October 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

Now what broke the system in this era was people using a LRM 100 build. So you fired 2 vollies and whatever you were shooting died. You didn't really need to do that though because you could core a fresh Atlas with a Catapult using 2x LRM 15 in about 6-8 shots.

i loved this time - because all that imba weapons became worthless below 180m.
Hell i even had a bunch of newbs and forbidde them to use LRMs - and those kids (in terms of game) did - and we fought, died and killed in the rain. And it was awesome.

The stand and shoot mentality happened with HSR - removement of convergence time - and so the Hex PPC Stalker - piloted by kids that were not possible to hit a barn before HSR.

SO: First out of cover - first that died - movement was reduced + 12 man movement was even more reduced - no movement lots of time to lance your LRMs at a target

Edited by Karl Streiger, 28 October 2014 - 06:09 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 October 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

When your suggestions are utter crap yeah I'm gonna poo poo them.
As for the everpresent L2P comments people who give useless suggestions tend to degrade to ... private lobby, 1v1, lets see who needs to L2P.

I say l2p because whats the difference in your playstyle vs mine when youre having such a massive issue with LRMs and Im not when Im not running ECM/AMS at all?

Artgathan, on 28 October 2014 - 06:04 AM, said:

Bad Things About LRMs:

• Require a lock to be effective
  
• IS Version have large minimum range
  
• Countered by Radar Deprivation, ECM, AMS
  
• Require you to keep your cross hairs on target to maintain lock
  
• Slow flight speed
  
• Spread Damage

Good Things about LRMs:

• Indirect Fire
  
• Screen Shake

Add NEED TO BE boated to be effective

[Joseph Mallan]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 28 October 2014 - 05:17 AM, said:

Theres this game called Hawken. No TT there



They DONT?!

Cause when Im direct firing those LRMs, a lock is required to be kept till they hit, if the spotters can fire and forget locks, then thats bullshit

If he is hold lock on the target he is shooting at there is no lock loss though.

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 28 October 2014 - 06:08 AM, said:

I say l2p because whats the difference in your playstyle vs mine when youre having such a massive issue with LRMs and Im not when Im not running ECM/AMS at all?




Add NEED TO BE boated to be effective

Does 3 LRM5 count as boating Buddah? Cause those 3 LRM 5s work really good in place of the slower LRM 15.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Glythe, on 28 October 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

You didn't really need to do that though because you could core a fresh Atlas with a Catapult using 2x LRM 15 in about 6-8 shots.
.

Why is the atlas sitting still in the open not under ECM long enough to TAKE six to EIGHT Alphas from that mech?

[Budor]

Vervuel, on 27 October 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

...So, make it 2 or 3 times normal lock time if you do not have LoS. Tag will act as a 50% modifier, decreasing non-LoS lock time by half. Narc will work as intended, making both LoS and non-LoS lock times the same. UAV's, same thing, since they are so damned easy to shoot down lol. Think this will be difficult? the Artemis system uses a similar rubric, with a buff to LoS lock time and missile spread. Just expand on this until you reach desired effect. By playing with LoS and non-LoS lock times, you can make it so that the "steering wheel underhive" cannot sit back and simply spam, they will have to advance and get a visual on an enemy mech.

This sounds like a good change to me.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 October 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

If he is hold lock on the target he is shooting at there is no lock loss though.


Does 3 LRM5 count as boating Buddah? Cause those 3 LRM 5s work really good in place of the slower LRM 15.

In this community, it seems like boating is any mech that uses lrms lol

Budor, on 28 October 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

This sounds like a good change to me.

This sounds like we should be firing MRms then not LRMs.

[The Boz]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 28 October 2014 - 06:10 AM, said:

Why is the atlas sitting still in the open not under ECM long enough to TAKE six to EIGHT Alphas from that mech?

TIL the way to play on Caustic is to find the hoodoo and hug it for all its worth and never ever leave it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 28 October 2014 - 06:12 AM, said:

In this community, it seems like boating is any mech that uses lrms lol



This sounds like we should be firing MRms then not LRMs.

Tell me about it. My 3 LRM 5s help kill a Mech and you see instant "LRM NOOB!" in chat.

[Prophetic]

Personally I have no issue with LRMs, but there is something they can do instead of a nerf.

Lower the tonnage for AMS to something trivial, including ammo. Something around .25 tons for each.
More people running the counter will give you a more accurate read. Then buff/nerf ams based on feedback.

People will be less effected by ams/counter buffs/nerfs then their favorite play style.
Some people feel like they can only run LRMs for some reason.

For the record I can't stand LRMs and you will almost never see me in a boat, but for those rare occasions I would still like to have some fun in them.