637 replies to this topic

[Dimento Graven]

Bush Hopper, on 10 March 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

First of all you seem to regard LRM boats in a kind of vacuum. Actually even 1 LRM boat is enough to gang up on someone - the same moment it targets an enemy which is engaged with another mech.

When you said "ganging up" I took it in context with the rest of your statement about seeing '2+' boats in a drop. However, what you're describing is mixed unit focus fire, that happens regardless of whether or not you have an enemy LRM boat on the other team.

The ONLY difference is that LRM boats can focus fire on indirect targets. Which primarily utilizes the skill of his team mates, not his own skill.

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Most likel people hate LRM boats for that and its surpressing power. They force often people to keep their heads down or to help another teammate or force you to disengage. Anyway, as I said in the previous post: the baseline idea is not bad for LRMs.

That depends. The inexperienced and lesser skilled might hate it due to the fact it can indirect 'focus fire' on them, the experienced dislike how easy it is for people to do well with LRMs, and most reasonable people agree the 'problems' of 'too many LRM boats' primarily occurs during challenge/contest periods.

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However, they lack versatility and are often (in PUGlandia) either extremely good or extremely bad. Maybe PGI will introduce Thunder ammo - then LRM boats would have a new strategic meaning. I'd love it. However, Swarm ammo would bring the complain level on an all time high

I don't believe those ammo types are available until much later in the timeline. I can only assume there are tenuous plans at best to add them.

Their actual effects in game, we can only speculate at this point.

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About your ELO comment...do you feel threatened or something that you need to wave your epeen in my direction?

Hardly, if you took my comment as describing my elo range any higher or lower than yours, that's on you. I can only relate my personal experiences in game. If you feel threatened or offended by my comments on elo, well, that speaks more to your insecurity than any 'epeen waving' on my parts.

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Actually your comment about LRM and skill make you look...very low ELO.

Doubt it. The fact that anyone would argue that doing well with LRMs requires some penultimate skill is silly, for reasons I've stated previous ad naseum.

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What you describe is someone who fires LRMs on 900m, with zero awareness nor any positioning skills.

Like it's REALLY all that hard to look at your HUD and figure out if the range of the enemy is between 180m and 1000m(or whatever quirks and modules have granted you).

Can you read numbers? Do you know that 90m is LESS than 180m? Do you know that 1500m is MORE than 1135m?

Seriously, we're talking 2nd grade math here...

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I can assure you there are people who know how to use LRM boats quite more efficient than "press R a few times to target that particular 'mech, and again, put the little circle in the big square, wait for the big circle, press the fire button".Edit: Sorry, for the bad structuring. The forum has its quirks...

Yes, I am one of those people too, and I personally know through repeated drops that it's MUCH more difficult for me to get an 8 kill game in any direct fire build than it is for me to get one in a Stalker LRM boat build.

The differences required for aiming, leading, situational awareness, and the like are significant.

[Dimento Graven]

Apnu, on 10 March 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

You are putting words in my mouth because you think I'm for LRM nerfs. Totally wrong. I am saying not to nerf because they already have more counters in the game than any other weapon system. I am saying LRMs are fine. I am saying LRM mitigation is trivial to do given these counters.

I'm not saying you said they need to be nerfed, in fact, we are in agreement (and I believe I've stated that already) that they DO NOT need to be nerfed, and I go on to say that they DO NOT need to be buffed, either.

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But to put a fine point on it, I like to say 'LRMs are easy to use, difficult to master' sure any noob can grab LRMs and use them and contribute something to the team. But to be effective at them and both throw 50% into the dirt, that takes skill.

Yes and no. It doesn't require as much skill on the part of the LRM boat pilot as the pro-LRM patriots want everyone else to believe. It does require other people on the team to be skilled at targeting, maintaining targets, and knowing when to (and being willing to) utilize UAVs for maximum benefit.

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I don't disagree with your points, but you are confused if you think I am a LRM hater. I'm not, like LRMs where they are. What I amy tired of is the endless parade of whiners. To them I say: Buck up kiddos, if you're dying to LRMs a lot, that's on you, not the LRMs.

I don't think I thought you were LRM hater either. If it came out that way, I apologize. I was trying to clarify some misconceptions, absolutely.

Certain people want to make out that LRMs are the hardest weapons in the game to use.

They are not, not by a long shot.

They're not the easiest, but, they are definitely in the "easier" category.

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On edit: in the three challenges I've completed I've taken the following mechs. Challenge 1: HBK-4J. Challenge 2: HBK-4G. Challenge 3: HBK-4J and G in rotation. When I was in the G I was eating LRM boats for lunch, I had no problems getting points. I wasn't under ECM and I didn't pack AMS. Just speed, position and opportunity. That and an AC20 was all I needed.

And I completed all the challenges in mostly dual gauss builds, though during the challenges, there's a great portion of the player base that switches from their direct fire builds to LRM carriers, BECAUSE IT IS easier to score points based off the point algorithms PGI typically uses.

It's easier to get an assist with LRMs because you don't necessarily have to "see" your target to hit it. You hit a target with ONE missile, while using indirect fire, you've assisted.

It can certainly be a LOT less risky to get kills with LRMs because again, you don't have to "see" your target to kill it. You get ONE missile in at the right moment, and you've scored a kill.

For formulas that include damage dealt, again, it can be less risky and easier to get lots of damage with LRM builds as you don't necessarily have to expose yourself to any enemy fire to do so. A willing spotter with NARC, or someone else utilizing a UAV and you can crank your damage will into the 1000's with minimal effort or risk.

[Apnu]

Dimento Graven, on 10 March 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

I'm not saying you said they need to be nerfed, in fact, we are in agreement (and I believe I've stated that already) that they DO NOT need to be nerfed, and I go on to say that they DO NOT need to be buffed, either.

Agreed. LRMs are fine where they're at. Why people have such hysterics over them says more about the hysterical players than it says about the game, PGI, or the weapon system.

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Yes and no. It doesn't require as much skill on the part of the LRM boat pilot as the pro-LRM patriots want everyone else to believe. It does require other people on the team to be skilled at targeting, maintaining targets, and knowing when to (and being willing to) utilize UAVs for maximum benefit.

LRMs are a weapon built around the team aspect of the game. There are two camps of MWO players. Team orientated ones, and lone gunmen. The effective use of LRMs requires team play in a variety of ways. Not just TAG/NARC and UAV or others pressing 'r' Its deeper than that. Lone gunners, however, are incensed when the great brawl they expected doesn't happen, or in their rush to go into the breech they get LURMd on the way in, and they're annoyed they can't wander around the map in the open looking for a slug fest.

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I don't think I thought you were LRM hater either. If it came out that way, I apologize. I was trying to clarify some misconceptions, absolutely.

Certain people want to make out that LRMs are the hardest weapons in the game to use.

They are not, not by a long shot.

They're not the easiest, but, they are definitely in the "easier" category.

And I completed all the challenges in mostly dual gauss builds, though during the challenges, there's a great portion of the player base that switches from their direct fire builds to LRM carriers, BECAUSE IT IS easier to score points based off the point algorithms PGI typically uses.

It's easier to get an assist with LRMs because you don't necessarily have to "see" your target to hit it. You hit a target with ONE missile, while using indirect fire, you've assisted.

It can certainly be a LOT less risky to get kills with LRMs because again, you don't have to "see" your target to kill it. You get ONE missile in at the right moment, and you've scored a kill.

For formulas that include damage dealt, again, it can be less risky and easier to get lots of damage with LRM builds as you don't necessarily have to expose yourself to any enemy fire to do so. A willing spotter with NARC, or someone else utilizing a UAV and you can crank your damage will into the 1000's with minimal effort or risk.

Thanks. Yes the formulas PGI's been using promote LRMs by their math. But a lot of that has to do with risk/reward than anything else. Players desperately want the free champion mech so they'll do anything to mitigate risk for the maximum reward. When the challenge isn't on, they don't care much.

LRMs can be lucky, they can also be work. I've got screen shots where I've gotten the most damage in the game and not one kill. I'd do 700+ damage and have 10 assists to show for it. But the same can also happen with a brawler build. Last challenge I had assaults stealing kills from my HBK-4G all the time, that was rage inducing.

[Gorgo7]

What would fix LRM's would be a speed buff to, say, 600m/s. Then we could go to direct line of sight with C3 as a bonus vs. indirect locks.
BAP and NARC as is.
Nerf ECM.
All would be happy!
Me especially!

I just got out of a game against an 11 man from house rat and my opening mech was a Catapult C4. I dropped over 1000 damage on the attackers and got two kills. Not bad.
Give my missiles more speed. Then we'll see!

[DivideByZer0]

You know what? I think time to kill (TTK) is too short. Remove all weapons in the game, and replace them with nerf guns and squirt guns. Can't wait to use my ER-SuperSoaker in the next TimberWolf wet T-shirt contest.

[Jman5]

Bloodright58, on 10 March 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

Once again, you all missed the point. Your topic accuracy needs to be Recalibrated. The issue at hand is not one mech, but almost two full lances of heavies and assaults (clan and IS) loaded to the gills with LRMs. No one is able to move without insta-lock being placed on them as soon as they poke a foot/hand from cover. In some cases, they are still without LOS, and getting targeted.

Yes, I understand that I need a faster mech, and radar derp, and ECM. But, I find that playing in a public group that this is REQUIRED, just to have fun. Next time I face this, I will make a video to show the issue at hand.

The fact of the matter is that lock on missiles are the only weapons where there are so many direct counters, damage mitigators, or firing disruptors.

Where is my anti-ballistic shield? Where is my ECM to block lasers? Can we reduce PPCs to 180m/s velocity so that I can duck behind cover when people shoot them at me? Why do we need to do something to stop teams with mass LRMs, but we don't need something to counter teams with mass Clan ER Medium Lasers?

You have so many options to mitigate the danger of LRMs if you are struggling to deal with them in the solo queue.

[Insidious Johnson]

LRMs are fine. I get called an LRM boat in my 4J hunchback all the time. Actually. It is a medium laser boat with missiles if you wanna be technical. But it still gets targeted by the LRMBOAT whine. I think what we really need to do is make LRMS part of the politically correct lexicon by just labeling these folks LRMAPHOBIC since they spend so much time bashing and fearing LRMs. I think they need counseling.

[Eider]

I love these debates.. made null and void during challenges when everyone and their monkey uses lrms.. cause they are so up.

[Kjudoon]

Face it.

This is swordsmen and pikers complaining about archers being OP and should be forced to use their weapons only in range and sight of their weapons. The last samurai protested the musket ending their supremacy too.

[Clint Steel]

Kjudoon, on 10 March 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

Face it.

This is swordsmen and pikers complaining about archers being OP and should be forced to use their weapons only in range and sight of their weapons. The last samurai protested the musket ending their supremacy too.

This would be true if REAL war is what they are trying to emulate, but in fact they are trying to make a FUN game. LRMs are not fun. Play a match without LRMs and tell me its not more fun than one with them.

[White Bear 84]

process, on 27 October 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

LRM 4.5
LRM 9
LRM 13.5
LRM 18

fixed ez

And old post yes, but seriously one of the best replies ever.. 10/10 for originality..

[Kjudoon]

Clint Steel, on 10 March 2015 - 06:21 PM, said:

This would be true if REAL war is what they are trying to emulate, but in fact they are trying to make a FUN game. LRMs are not fun. Play a match without LRMs and tell me its not more fun than one with them.

LRMs are a blast most times to use and face. Your opinion on their "fun" ratio is not fact.

And I have played matches and mechs without LRMs, and I prefer them in match far more because its a tactical challenge to me, and I LOVE having an LRM duel or out popping a poptart who thinks he's so smooth.

All my fave mechs have at least 10 LRMs on them.

Again, LRMs have been artificially hamstrung by whiny players who demand...DEMAND mind you that they must be able to see what is shooting them and return fire with an artificially superior weapon.

[Whatzituyah]

To be honest I thought in the other games of MechWarrior "I know this is different but just here me out on this for a second" LRMs were just that Long Range Missle that didn't shoot high up in the sky! They flew low to the ground but were still considered long range in at least one of the games it might be all its been awhile be free to correct me!

Yes I am too lazy to read the whole topic I only seen the title and thought this.

[Davegt27]

They are already nerfing LRM's

In CW all my LRM's were blowing up right after I launched them

The other nerf was when they would take this big old arc and take like 3 seconds to hit

Another thing that was happening today was instead of flying high up they were going straight and hitting the terrain


One of my goals with my Jager A is to make you think there are 10 LRM boats trying to kill you

So I know something is working when they start crying on the forums

Davegt27

[Eider]

Here is how i would like lrms to be done. Allow people to shoot them down.. without ams. If i sweep a volley with lasers it damn well better take out a few.

Kjudoon, on 10 March 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

Face it.

This is swordsmen and pikers complaining about archers being OP and should be forced to use their weapons only in range and sight of their weapons. The last samurai protested the musket ending their supremacy too.

To be honest it would be more like swordsmen and pikers complaining the archers had drone aircraft firing missiles at them while inside a castle having dinner.

[Morticia Mellian]

Keep the LRMs as is, just provide better counters either with equipment, mech ability, or and map terrain.

Also, if people want to do LRM boats, despite the annoyance they can bring, I say let them. Just allows me to know where they are, get around, and stab their backs with my pair of Large Pulse Lasers on my Raven. : p

[Whatzituyah]

Eider, on 10 March 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

To be honest it would be more like swordsmen and pikers complaining the archers had drone aircraft firing missiles at them while inside a castle having dinner.

Wait you comparing things that are not even in the same era! Its like saying knights were really robots.

[Lynx7725]

Eider, on 10 March 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

Here is how i would like lrms to be done. Allow people to shoot them down.. without ams. If i sweep a volley with lasers it damn well better take out a few.

Hell I'm a LRM Spec and I don't mind this. If the enemy is going to waste time sweeping their weapons to kill LRMs, expend ammo and build up heat and render themselves MORE ineffective, then the utility of LRMs goes UP!

[Kjudoon]

Eider, on 10 March 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

To be honest it would be more like swordsmen and pikers complaining the archers had drone aircraft firing missiles at them while inside a castle having dinner.

Uhhh... no. Not even close to representative of what the complaints are.

[Kilo 40]

Kjudoon, on 10 March 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

Face it.

This is swordsmen and pikers complaining about archers being OP and should be forced to use their weapons only in range and sight of their weapons. The last samurai protested the musket ending their supremacy too.