637 replies to this topic

[Apnu]

Artgathan, on 28 October 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

This is actually an interesting result of their mechanics. LRMs don't NEED to be boated per se - their problem is that they don't synergize well with other weapons, which pushes LRM users to use only LRMs or else deal with clunky mechanics that impair their ability to fight.

Consider:

On my TDR-5S I use ALRM10+15 and a PPC as my primary weapons. I primarily play it as direct fire support, using nearby Assaults to distract away from me. If the enemy focuses on me I have a problem - I can snap fire the PPC, but if I want to torso twist to spread damage I can't fire the LRMs (because then I'll have to 1: Get Lock, then 2: Maintain Lock, face tanking the whole time).

+1 for the TDR-5S as a LRM mech. Love it. I run mine w/ MLs instead of the PPC. More ammo for LRMs. You're right tho. LRMs have zero synergy with any other weapon system. But, also you point out correctly, you can boat them or not boat them.

On my BLR-1G, which is mainly an energy boat, I pack a LRM10 and PPC. Why not? I'll use the PPC or LRM (or, and rarely, both) while I close then switch to the six MLs on the beast.

LRMs can be the main focus of your mech, or a compliment to your build, if you have open tonnage. That's about it.

Either way, I balance my LRM builds with some kind of secondary weapon system. One ML won't cut it, but three or more will, or large lasers, they show up on my 75 ton heavies and assaults when packing LRMs. Too many times I've run into some LRM focused mech that has no other weapons (I'm looking at you CPLT-A1) or a token backup weapon. When they run out of LRMs, they're useless.

[Bigbacon]

Axeface, on 28 October 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Wait. 2 things.
First, I don't choose where my entire team goes that is decided completely by map design. Second, I dont think 1 single weapon system should decide how everyone acts, cowering in fear of the almighty lrm.

The city parts in Caustic... ? Really? No one ever goes there because of the map design. The cities you speak of are too far from the high ground, brawlers arn't gonna go hide in the city are they, where they are instantly just on the defensive, they will go to the high ground and try to pounce on the enemy. If the whole team went to the city to avoid lrm's then whoever has the best range wins.

actually I will agree with him on one thing..

A lot of the problems on the maps is because no one will try using other areas. Most of the maps have TONS of areas that are quite awesome to fight in but no one wants to use them.

That isn't the map creator's fault.

It isn't just LRMs its everything.

[Xiomburg]

So you think that when Russ plays one game and gets LURMED, he is going to hurt LRMs?

I can't wait til he gets dual gaussed, alpha streaked with a mad dog, AC40ed to the face, or so many more things. Be careful what you wish for from a inexperienced player.

[Screech]

Sounds like Russ is experiencing a little cause and effect. I wouldn't adjust the weapon to fix this just the rewards.

[rageagainstthedyingofthelight]

Axeface, on 28 October 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Wait. 2 things.
First, I don't choose where my entire team goes that is decided completely by map design. Second, I dont think 1 single weapon system should decide how everyone acts, cowering in fear of the almighty lrm.

The city parts in Caustic... ? Really? No one ever goes there because of the map design. The cities you speak of are too far from the high ground, brawlers arn't gonna go hide in the city are they, where they are instantly just on the defensive, they will go to the high ground and try to pounce on the enemy. If the whole team went to the city to avoid lrm's then whoever has the best range wins.

Those are all decisions you make, though. You want the play style to conform to you, not you figuring out the best way to play.

As for the one single weapon system, Direwolves decide where everyone will go and what everyone will do.

[Kirkland Langue]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 October 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

See You don't know how good you have it if you think this. MW:O AMS is leagues better than TT.
TT:
Your AMS only targeted the first Missile salvo directed at you. ONLY You.
AMS had(old rules) 6 rounds of ammo(IS) and 12(Clan). You rolled 1d6 and that was the amount of ammo spent shooting down 1d6 Missiles. So I could use all my Battlemaster's AMS ammo shooting down 1 missile. It's gotten better, but it still sucks compared to what we have!

Now imagine if TT basically said "Any mech damaged by LRM has it's movement cut in half and has to roll twice for all to-hit rolls and chooses the worst result". That is basically the LRM rules we have to play with here.

[Kitty Bacon]

How about don't nerf anymore weaponry and Buff AMS and give rewards for running it. That would help more than nerfing a weapon that was ineffective for 1 whole year.

[AlphaToaster]

Mechs that can equip dual AMS should be given quirks that make it worth bringing them. The AMS weighs enough on those mechs that they're somewhat lacking in their hardpoints so they aren't used that often.

Offer rewards for AMS usage some kind of 5xp/10cb per 5 lrms shot down or something. Can tweak the numbers but offer a reward for bringing AMS, aside from surviving, if people needs that I guess to bring AMS.

Stop nerfing all the weapons into the ground. We will just find a better weapon in relation to what is left starting the cycle all over again. In fact at this rate, we will need an Advanced Diplomacy Module added, so that at the beginning of the match, we can just talk it out instead of fighting. I'm sure there's enough resources that we can share the planet..... That way no one gets hurt.

[Kitty Bacon]

AlphaToaster gets it. We need to stop nerfing weaponry and look into alternatives. If AMS was buff'd for the mechs that can carry dual AMS/3AMS and rewarded them for taking it, you would see the same number of missiles, but it would encourage people to play as a team and take mechs that can aid the team in their own way instead of all feeling similer in respects.

Like the Jester. Give it a boost to AMS range and allow it to make Cbils per 10 missiles shot down by it as its perks. Same with the dual AMS Summoner. Give it half rewards per AMS slot and full rewards and perks once both AMS are on the thing. Would make the dual AMS Summoner good in its own respects.

[RazorbeastFXK3]

They could always bring the range back down to the Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries deal where LRMs had a max range of 630M instead of the 1,000M that they have now. Also instead of 1.1 damage per LRM it'd be just a flat 1 damage per missile.

Or bring the stats to how Mechwarrior 3 had it where the LRMs went 800M, SRM went 360M, SSRM went 480M and NARC went 1,000M.

[Barantor]

RazorbeastFXK3, on 28 October 2014 - 10:17 AM, said:

They could always bring the range back down to the Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries deal where LRMs had a max range of 630M instead of the 1,000M that they have now. Also instead of 1.1 damage per LRM it'd be just a flat 1 damage per missile.

Or bring the stats to how Mechwarrior 3 had it where the LRMs went 800M, SRM went 360M, SSRM went 480M and NARC went 1,000M.

If you do that, I would want the direct fire lrms buffed. Face tanking to keep lock and slow fire arcing LRMs are a death sentence to anyone taking fire when direct firing. Make the travel time faster and it isn't as good as an AC, but not a death sentence.

[Novakaine]

Ya don't hear me crying about wall crawling light mechs do you?
Stop the damn whining.
Just deal with it.

[Greenjulius]

Kitty Bacon, on 28 October 2014 - 10:15 AM, said:

AlphaToaster gets it. We need to stop nerfing weaponry and look into alternatives. If AMS was buff'd for the mechs that can carry dual AMS/3AMS and rewarded them for taking it, you would see the same number of missiles, but it would encourage people to play as a team and take mechs that can aid the team in their own way instead of all feeling similer in respects.

Like the Jester. Give it a boost to AMS range and allow it to make Cbils per 10 missiles shot down by it as its perks. Same with the dual AMS Summoner. Give it half rewards per AMS slot and full rewards and perks once both AMS are on the thing. Would make the dual AMS Summoner good in its own respects.

Yes. Please give me a reason to run 3xAMS on my Kitfox and I'd be happy to. Currently I can't spare the tonnage and just go with ECM alone. Rewards/Boosts for AMS are needed.

LRMs don't need nerfed. We just needs more options across the board.

Edited by Greenjulius, 28 October 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Kitty Bacon]

we SERIOUSLY need to stop asking for nerfs and look into alternatives. AMS is a HUGE under-performer in MWO right now and it makes that 1.5 tons useless on every mech, despite how it can shoot down LRMs. I will give you an example of why AMS needs to be buff'd. A few nights ago, me and a few of my LRM friends were running a narcing Raven with 2 LRM 40 Catapults and an LRM stalker. We were playing like normal, positioning correctly and looking for locks. But, the enemy team had 3 dual AMS mechs, 2 Jesters and a Summoner, who were giving AMS cover for their team. We got a narc on an atlas and the AMS was shooting down a great deal of missiles.. yet, it felt like it was useless for them on our end. That was 6 AMS in total shooting down LRMs as they came in and it felt like for the LRM mechs that it was pointless.

AMS needs to be buff'd, LRMs do not need nerfs.

[Brody319]

50CB 10XP every 20 seconds for every mech under ECM coverage
10CB 5XP for every point of damage AMS countered. (launch 10 LRMs and I stop 5 with AMS, then every point of damage those missiles would have caused should be multiplied by 10 and given as c-bills

Put that up, and anti-missile equipment will go up so much that LRM boats will have to start stripping missiles for other weapons since they cannot hit for as much damage.

Then double the firing speed of AMS so more missiles can be shot down. 1 shouldn't stop 50 LRMs
but 6-7 should easily.

Edited by Brody319, 28 October 2014 - 10:33 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 October 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

DERRRRRPPPPPPPPPPP

Where did the bad LRM touch you?

Brody319, on 28 October 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Put that up, and anti-missile equipment will go up so much that LRM boats will have to start stripping missiles for other weapons since they cannot hit for as much damage.

Doesn't that just kind of prove the point that LRMs suck? It's just that people who have trouble with them forgo the equipment, and instead whine.

Guaranteed, if EVERYONE mounted AMS, we would never see LRMs. Ever.

Yet no one does.

[Brody319]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 28 October 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:

Where did the bad LRM touch you?



Doesn't that just kind of prove the point that LRMs suck? It's just that people who have trouble with them forgo the equipment, and instead whine.

Guaranteed, if EVERYONE mounted AMS, we would never see LRMs. Ever.

Yet no one does.

AMS is currently wasted space. You get no reward for it, and you waste space you could use for ammo for your other weapons.
Missiles went up with the tag and narc rewards. So give AMS and ECM rewards too, and boom you will see lots of mechs bringing LRM counter systems.

currently if your team doesn't bring enough ECM then you are going to get LRM stormed to death before you can even push.

[Spheroid]

There will be no LRM nerf. In little over a month the heavy queue will be flooded with vast numbers of ECM Hellbringers. That is too much for NARC to cut through.

TAG is not going to make up the difference unless you like getting your face shot off.

Balancing changes are glacial in pace, changes in meta from new content will override the concerns of this topic.

[AlphaToaster]

I don't have to be rewarded with cbills or xp in order to support my team and I think it's dangerous to start setting the expectation that PGI is going to use XP/cbills to coax people into playing like a team.

F**k you to those players who won't support their team unless they get xp/cbills as a direct result of that support. They deserve every stomp that they get.

Standing there like a d-bag getting lrm'd to hell because they, nor the other guy, brought AMS, and neither of them has the balls to push into the lrm boats because in that situation, you either die where you stand, or you take the chance to push the lrm boats and beat them in a brawl.

When you don't bring AMS and you see LRMs on the other team, you should immediately push aggressively. You won't win standing backing but you might win if you push.

It's not even about L2P. It's more like be aware of your options and when you have none or rapidly diminishing options, to seize the best chance at victory before it's gone.

More like L2Think.

P.E.B.K.A.C.

[Brody319]

AlphaToaster, on 28 October 2014 - 10:54 AM, said:

I don't have to be rewarded with cbills or xp in order to support my team and I think it's dangerous to start setting the expectation that PGI is going to use XP/cbills to coax people into playing like a team.

F**k you to those players who won't support their team unless they get xp/cbills as a direct result of that support. They deserve every stomp that they get.

Standing there like a d-bag getting lrm'd to hell because they, nor the other guy, brought AMS, and neither of them has the balls to push into the lrm boats because in that situation, you either die where you stand, or you take the chance to push the lrm boats and beat them in a brawl.

When you don't bring AMS and you see LRMs on the other team, you should immediately push aggressively. You won't win standing backing but you might win if you push.

It's not even about L2P. It's more like be aware of your options and when you have none or rapidly diminishing options, to seize the best chance at victory before it's gone.

More like L2Think.

P.E.B.K.A.C.

I do support my team when I can. However a lot of players don't bring AMS or ECM if they can. Most mechs actually adapted to the narc and tag rewards by swapping out a single energy weapon for tag, or a missile for narc. Meaning LRMs suddenly have a ton more support because people want more c-bills.

Not so much that rewards coax people into assisting their team, more just it encourages them to bring equipment to the battle they probably should be now.

Save some space for more ammo or weapons or equip AMS for arguably nothing.

Not paying for doing some jobs is basically like saying don't do that job. If it wasnt for the usefulness of the magical jesus box you would probably see it stripped away.