62 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

SkyCake, on 28 October 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

where is the SMN-C??? does anyone know the loadout and hard points from 3050 technical readout? sarna only lists weapon loadouts... not their location...

You can make the Summoner C; It's a UAC20 in the Left arm, Right arm has a ERLL and ERSL, LT has a SSRM6.

[Herr Vorragend]

With those arguments like "I know someone, who had x kills and yyy dmg"... of course you can have those matches. Skill combined with luck. But that's not the point.

The summoner has limited hardpoints on it's omni-parts. Only 2 energy hp per arm (I mention this again, because one ml more can help without having to sacrifice too much tonnage). The Timberwolf can get rid of the JJs by using another omnipod. The Kitfox can do that as well.
On IS mechs you can equip endo and ferro by your own decision. If you want JJs, you can free up tonnage by upgrading the chassis. Imagine, how big the anger would be, if IS mechs would have fixed JJs, too. And imagine, you cannot upgrade your mech with endo... Then you are beginning to understand, what it's like to equip a summoner.

Not being able to remove the JJs and not being able to upgrade endo (which would help a little if you can't remove the jets) leads to the following problems:

- decent weapon loadout (and it's just an "okay" loadout, nothing like TW) but huge lack of ammo.
- weak weapon loudout, enough and no hardpoints left to fill while still having tonnage free.

Are there any Summoner Variants in Lore, that don't have JJs in the legs?

I appeal to PGI. Please equip endo instead of ferro OR let us remove the JJs on the Summoner.




...grammar edit...

Edited by Herr Vorragend, 28 October 2014 - 12:31 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Even if you give it endo and removable jj it still is the only heavy/assault i get legged in over and over with FULL armor. This mechs needs tons of help.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 28 October 2014 - 12:37 PM.

[Herr Vorragend]

Monkey Lover, on 28 October 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

Even if you give it endo and removable jj it still is the only heavy/assault i get legged in over and over with FULL armor. This mechs needs tons of help.

Possible, but I'd try endo as a first step of getting the summoner a little better.

Btw, I've made good experiences with the so called badder by using an uac10 and 3 ml. 3 tons of uac10 ammo. Got some 600+ matches with that. But it's the only decent loadout in my experience, which also is a little sad (one trick pony)

[FupDup]

Anyways, I think one of the best "buffs" to the Suckoner would be giving it an Omnipod set with at least 1 energy hardpoint per side torso. Then builds other than 5 SRM6 could be intimidating, and those SRM-bombers could have backup weapons too.

[Xarian]

Unlocking Clan upgrades would probably fix all the chassis.

However, I'd like to see them stay locked, and instead give them quirks to fix. Also, actually fixing Jump Jets would help. The recent change was a complete joke; Jets were changed by something like 5% - low enough that PGI repeatedly refused to even tell us how much they changed them.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Xarian, on 28 October 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

Unlocking Clan upgrades would probably fix all the chassis.

However, I'd like to see them stay locked, and instead give them quirks to fix. Also, actually fixing Jump Jets would help. The recent change was a complete joke; Jets were changed by something like 5% - low enough that PGI repeatedly refused to even tell us how much they changed them.

Well, it was enough that I could get a Nova up on the buildings on Crimson Strait...before I literally couldnt even get a Firestarter up on the buildings in Frozen city....

[Ultimax]

Monkey Lover, on 28 October 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

Even if you give it endo and removable jj it still is the only heavy/assault i get legged in over and over with FULL armor. This mechs needs tons of help.

I've heard this, but I have to be honest - I have never once been legged in my summoner while getting basic XP on all 3 variants, and fully mastering the prime.


I save a lot of JJ juice to cushion landings though, not really sure what else could be going on in your matches.

[Herr Vorragend]

Xarian, on 28 October 2014 - 12:48 PM, said:

Unlocking Clan upgrades would probably fix all the chassis.

However, I'd like to see them stay locked, and instead give them quirks to fix. Also, actually fixing Jump Jets would help. The recent change was a complete joke; Jets were changed by something like 5% - low enough that PGI repeatedly refused to even tell us how much they changed them.

First point: Maybe, yes.

But why would you have them stay locked? You still have no other option to free up more tonnage. Quirks won't do that and you still have the problems I mentioned above. I don't know, maybe I see something wrong. In this case the Summoner is no option for me. I'd be happy for a single variant without the JJs.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

One little issue I have with it having played around with it a little bit recently that hasn't seem to have been brought up (probably because there is little chance of it changing), is the low freaking arms. I know it had this in visual aspect of the TRO, but I wouldn't call it a good aspect that should've been translated into MWO.

I would love to see the Suckoner and the Trenchbucket have their arms remodeled to have their gun mounts further up on the model in respect to the rest of the mech.



Outside of that, the Summoner and Adder could both use some hardpoint inflation considering they are already at some disadvantage with the competitors in their respective classes (or special pods since the Summoner doesn't have much variety in that department).

[Herr Vorragend]

Aye, the Nova is also hurted badly by those design-decisions.
It's a pity. The most common (and decent) clan mechs are: Direwolf, Timberwolf, Stormcrow, Kitfox and Mad Dog.
Wave 2 will add one more mech to this list and that's it. 6 mechs, the rest has serious problems.

[Xarian]

LordKnightFandragon, on 28 October 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

Well, it was enough that I could get a Nova up on the buildings on Crimson Strait...before I literally couldnt even get a Firestarter up on the buildings in Frozen city....

The JJs on the Firestarter and Nova didn't get buffed, dude. It was only on Class 1-3 JJs, which means Heavies (class 3), Victor (class 2), and Highlander (class 1).

[Xarian]

Herr Vorragend, on 28 October 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

First point: Maybe, yes.

But why would you have them stay locked? You still have no other option to free up more tonnage. Quirks won't do that and you still have the problems I mentioned above. I don't know, maybe I see something wrong. In this case the Summoner is no option for me. I'd be happy for a single variant without the JJs.

Because I'm strongly in favor of mech differentiation. The more things that you unlock on a mech, the more you run into a situation where the mech with better hitboxes, better hardpoints, and optimal tonnage (to max out runspeed before engine weights start to escalate heavily) wins.

The Nova is extremely large for its weight and its energy hardpoints are pretty bad (they are all in the arms and somewhat low-mounted). Even if you give it an extra 4 tons or whatever that Endo would give you, it won't make it a good mech. The Hellbringer, however, is balanced by the fact that it doesn't have much pod space; that's the price you will pay for ECM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Xarian, on 28 October 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

The JJs on the Firestarter and Nova didn't get buffed, dude. It was only on Class 1-3 JJs, which means Heavies (class 3), Victor (class 2), and Highlander (class 1).

Wrong, Class I, II, and IV were changed.
So the Firestarter's JJs did not get boosted, but the Nova did (as did other Mediums and all Assaults).

From patch notes:

   Jump Jet thrust has been adjusted on Class I, II and IV Jump Jets to make them feel livelier.
	    You will notice a small increase in height.
	    You will notice that you get to max height much quicker.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 28 October 2014 - 01:44 PM.

[Herr Vorragend]

Xarian, on 28 October 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Because I'm strongly in favor of mech differentiation. The more things that you unlock on a mech, the more you run into a situation where the mech with better hitboxes, better hardpoints, and optimal tonnage (to max out runspeed before engine weights start to escalate heavily) wins.

The Nova is extremely large for its weight and its energy hardpoints are pretty bad (they are all in the arms and somewhat low-mounted). Even if you give it an extra 4 tons or whatever that Endo would give you, it won't make it a good mech. The Hellbringer, however, is balanced by the fact that it doesn't have much pod space; that's the price you will pay for ECM.

I totally agree with you about the hellbringer. And ECM is also what made the D-DC decent, although this variant has limited hp compared to other atlas variants.

And I also agree, that endo won't help the nova. The nova is punished by ghost heat / heat and laser-range-reduction. But endo would help the summoner for sure. (Maybe some mechs of wave 2, too)

[Lily from animove]

Xarian, on 28 October 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

The JJs on the Firestarter and Nova didn't get buffed, dude. It was only on Class 1-3 JJs, which means Heavies (class 3), Victor (class 2), and Highlander (class 1).

they did changed class IV jets and now nova can jump higher but less in range, which I don't like, many terrain gaps the nova could jump over is not possible anymore.I really don't need to jump that high, makes tactical not muc sense for the nova. A fat turkey on a roof, Well yeah. Also it makes poptarting a bodelrine usefull tactic again.ES could help the nova quite well, it would make sure that a AC on it has still decent ammo. or be able to upgrade a AC to the next AC tier. It would for the prime variant also help to increase the amount of DHS. Causing higher heat tershold and better heat dissipation
But then I would rather prefer to use those 2,5 tons to upgrade the engine giving the nova some vital speed it needs.
Maybe allowing the clans to freely customize the mechs as well would balance them better against each other. Sure it may be a bit awkward when a TBR downsoizes its engine for even more firepower, but then how much more cna it stack? not really much because it already is mostly fully loadd with weapons at all hardpoints.
So engine and structure customisation may probably nt even be negative for the balance at all.

Laser heat and range are fine on the Nova, I don't get why you say this is an issue. it needs more patience sure but its still not bad and not the biggest problem of those the nova has.

Edited by Lily from animove, 28 October 2014 - 02:37 PM.

[Herr Vorragend]

Sounds interesting and I got your point, Lily.
How about appealing to PGI to make full customization possible? I know, the limitation in customization was brought up, to "balance" clan and IS. But maybe this could be done in other ways.
Iḿ still doing pretty well in e.g. jägermechs. Most of the IS mechs aren't that bad. And mechs from the lower tiers will receive a buff with the upcoming quirks. So the balancing could be done for both, clan and IS, with restrictions in weapon-settings and quirks.

I'd be happy enough, if we could check your idea on the test-server.

[KuroNyra]

If there is one thing I want for the Summoner, it's the ability to have energy slot on the sides torsos.
That would help him a bit.

[Lightfoot]

Make Clan Jump jets removable and you can balance all of the Clan mechs on the same scale. The move to make the Clan Mechlab Closed effect is a bit too arbitrary and does not automatically balance all the mechs.

Balance is not an issue of "Hey, look at my personal stats in this game", which is the main defense to doing nothing to the Summoner. Balance is comparing the Summoner to other 65-70 ton mechs and the Summoner just doesn't rank here and so will be abandoned in CW when maximum dropweight will be the measure mechs must meet. A Heavy that must be played as a Medium is not balanced. Heavy mech is a very special Class of battlemech that crosses the loadout boundary with Assaults, but with less armor. Heavy mechs that can't do this like the Summoner will get dumped in CW. I have played MechWarrior in a lot of competitive leagues like CW will be and the mechs that don't carry their weight don't get used. So this kind of fair balancing is critical for MWO's mechs.

[Navid A1]

WM Quicksilver, on 28 October 2014 - 01:43 PM, said:

Xarian, on 28 October 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

The JJs on the Firestarter and Nova didn't get buffed, dude. It was only on Class 1-3 JJs, which means Heavies (class 3), Victor (class 2), and Highlander (class 1).

Wrong, Class I, II, and IV were changed.
So the Firestarter's JJs did not get boosted, but the Nova did (as did other Mediums and all Assaults).

From patch notes:

   Jump Jet thrust has been adjusted on Class I, II and IV Jump Jets to make them feel livelier.
		You will notice a small increase in height.
		You will notice that you get to max height much quicker.

Wrong.!
Only class I, III and IV were changed.
That piece of text you got there has a typo in it (confirmed by russ). It was corrected afterwards.
link: http://mwomercs.com/...45-21-oct-2014/

Edited by Navid A1, 28 October 2014 - 10:01 PM.