281 replies to this topic

[Tenacious B]

So much QQ.. Suck it up and drop that 6,000,000 on a radar dep. Master your mechs for the extra module slot.

[Colonel Clunge]

Summon3r, on 01 November 2014 - 07:16 PM, said:

LRM's need something done to them there is no doubt about it. dunno what but something. ill offer, maintained line of sight? less arc? i dunno something tho

What about a heat penalty? Might stop the chain fire death effect that you get from CLRMs. Also the screen shake is ridiculous at times. A lot of the chat has focussed on LRMs affecting Assaults but I play mainly mediums and if you get caught on the wrong map with a "hit and run" variant you might as well forget it. All it takes is for you to peak over the wrong bit of hill and you're dead before you can get to any cover - if you can even find it with the screen shake!

I don't generally have a problem with the targeting aspect on IS LRMs as it can be quite hard to hold targets on some maps but I've never used ClanLRMs - are they easier to lock targets?

I get what the other guys are saying about roleplay and teamwork but given that most people at PUG just now you can't guarantee that there are going to be a good representation of AMS/ECM vs the opponents LRMs. I've played on Caustic Valley when we've not had a single ECM - needless to say it was a massacre. So something more than a 10% penalty on damage needs to be done.

[Kensaisama]

Tenacious B, on 04 November 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

So much QQ.. Suck it up and drop that 6,000,000 on a radar dep. Master your mechs for the extra module slot.

Radar Dep is not going to help if you are under the influence of TAG, NARC, or in LOS of an enemy mech and actively targeted. AMS is not going to help if you are getting rained on by LRM40+ monsters, cover is not going to help if there isn't any, you cannot get to it in time if there is. or the other team is better organized at positioning even if there is cover to be had. ECM can be defeated easily now a days so thats not really an option either. Any further pearls of wisdom you care to share?

[mogs01gt]

Kensaisama, on 04 November 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Radar Dep is not going to help if you are under the influence of TAG, NARC, or in LOS of an enemy mech and actively targeted. AMS is not going to help if you are getting rained on by LRM40+ monsters, cover is not going to help if there isn't any, you cannot get to it in time if there is. or the other team is better organized at positioning even if there is cover to be had. ECM can be defeated easily now a days so thats not really an option either. Any further pearls of wisdom you care to share?

LMAO if they have LOS on you, I'd be more concerned about an Alpha from a TBR, WarHawk or DWF....

If you have NARC or TAG on you, its most likely a light as made it to your back lines. The issue is simply lights take too much time to kill due to hit registration, BAP sucks and IS streaks sucking....Again the issue isnt with LRMS.

Edited by mogs01gt, 04 November 2014 - 06:32 AM.

[Gyrok]

Colonel Clunge, on 04 November 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

What about a heat penalty? Might stop the chain fire death effect that you get from CLRMs. Also the screen shake is ridiculous at times. A lot of the chat has focussed on LRMs affecting Assaults but I play mainly mediums and if you get caught on the wrong map with a "hit and run" variant you might as well forget it. All it takes is for you to peak over the wrong bit of hill and you're dead before you can get to any cover - if you can even find it with the screen shake!

I don't generally have a problem with the targeting aspect on IS LRMs as it can be quite hard to hold targets on some maps but I've never used ClanLRMs - are they easier to lock targets?

I get what the other guys are saying about roleplay and teamwork but given that most people at PUG just now you can't guarantee that there are going to be a good representation of AMS/ECM vs the opponents LRMs. I've played on Caustic Valley when we've not had a single ECM - needless to say it was a massacre. So something more than a 10% penalty on damage needs to be done.

Clan LRMs are weaker than IS LRMs...

The damage spreads more because they stream out. They are also more impacted by AMS because they stream out, lock time is the same, flight speed is the same.

Overall, the only advantage clan LRMs get lies between 150-180m where they can still do close to full damage.

It takes more effort to get clan lrms to do 1k damage than it does to get IS lrms to do that. This is a badly formed misconception.

[Kensaisama]

mogs01gt, on 04 November 2014 - 06:32 AM, said:

LMAO if they have LOS on you, I'd be more concerned about an Alpha from a TBR, WarHawk or DWF....

If you have NARC or TAG on you, its most likely a light as made it to your back lines. The issue is simply lights take too much time to kill due to hit registration, BAP sucks and IS streaks sucking....Again the issue isnt with LRMS.

Then enlighten us good sir, if the issue isn't about LRM's, as most of the conversation taking place in this thread is, then what is the issue?

[LordKnightFandragon]

Gyrok, on 04 November 2014 - 06:32 AM, said:

Clan LRMs are weaker than IS LRMs...

The damage spreads more because they stream out. They are also more impacted by AMS because they stream out, lock time is the same, flight speed is the same.

Overall, the only advantage clan LRMs get lies between 150-180m where they can still do close to full damage.

It takes more effort to get clan lrms to do 1k damage than it does to get IS lrms to do that. This is a badly formed misconception.

But Clan LRMs are prettier, NERF CLAN LRMS!!!!

[mogs01gt]

Kensaisama, on 04 November 2014 - 06:49 AM, said:

Then enlighten us good sir, if the issue isn't about LRM's, as most of the conversation taking place in this thread is, then what is the issue?

Can you not read? I just posted some of the issues...

[RalphVargr]

Nerfing LRM's out of usefulness is like Texas wanting to secede.

Let's help them!

[Belorion]

For the most part I think people complain about LRM's too much. The only beef I have with CLRMs is that they go through buildings and other geometry to hit mechs behind cover. Other than that they are fine.

[Kensaisama]

mogs01gt, on 04 November 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

Can you not read? I just posted some of the issues...

My apologies, your post is a rambling mess with really no point to it at all. You simply regurgitated a piece of what I already stated and threw in light mechs, hit registration, BAP, and streaks. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. May I suggest you go back and read the post I initially responded to, then reread my reply to said post for further comprehension and enlightenment.

[KraftySOT]

Im just going to post this again because you people are still arguing and youll never stop.

To be fair, its like youre saying "Well if you dont go out on the weekends, you wont get *****, so **** if fine."

Nah, you should totally be able to go out on weekends.

The issue isnt that they can be avoided, its that avoiding them, is just as lame as being ***** by them. When what you want to do is go shoot at mechs, and instead you and your team are hiding behind the same mountain side or building waiting for the LRMathon to stop while ecm mechs play peeaboo until someone dies then the mechballs collide...that sucks.

Of course you can avoid them.

The issue is that avoiding them is boring as ****. And that not avoiding them is near instant spasm death.

Like pretend for instance you have a friend, and he constantly, everytime you see him, punches you in the face.

Sure you can just duck. You know its coming. Its REALLY easy to avoid. But its not your fault if you dont duck. Its also not a stretch to say that your friend is a piece of dirt, and you should stop bloody well hanging out with him.

Thats where people get with the MWO lrmsturm.

You want to be friends...but youre tired of ducking punches to the face.

Edited by KraftySOT, 04 November 2014 - 07:56 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Kensaisama, on 04 November 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

My apologies, your post is a rambling mess with really no point to it at all. You simply regurgitated a piece of what I already stated and threw in light mechs, hit registration, BAP, and streaks. Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. May I suggest you go back and read the post I initially responded to, then reread my reply to said post for further comprehension and enlightenment.

Typical LRM complainer, unable to understand clear issues with the game and place the blame on a weapon.

I suggest using the search tool and reading through the hundreds of threads regarding LRMs.

[KraftySOT]

No one cares that you can avoid them.

Thats not the point.

The point is that avoiding them. Sucks. I played 150 matches over the weekend. How many of those matches did the entire time hide behind cover, usually the same cover, for most of the match until one or two mechs were picked off and then the roll happened?

EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

LRMs are a ******* problem. Just because you can avoid them, doesnt change the fact that they suck ass. It forces a kind of gameplay that is toxic to the games health.

Standing behind berms, rises, buildings, mountains, under the little helicopter platform on Rivercity...its annoying. Its boring. Its dull. Its the same game, over and over and over and over again.

This is because of LRMs.

No one is playing Sitzkrieg because of lasers, or gauss rifles, or anything else. All of those things are EASIER to dodge in the open, on the move, than playing peek a boo.

The only reason everyone in this game plays peek a boo.

Is indirect fire lrms.

Thats the problem.

Not that they can kill you quickly if youre not careful...its that the avoidance of being killed quickly, leads to a ****** game.

But go ahead and go back to your "LRMS are OP!" "NO BECAUSE YOU CAN AVOID THEM" conversation thats been going on for two years without ever finding a solution or realizing the actual problem.

I try to be a nice caring person, but sometimes you just have to wish for people to get into bad car accidents.

Seriously. Some of these arguments are so maddening and so pigeon holed that no one can see the forest for the trees.

Just. Stop.

mogs01gt, on 04 November 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

Typical LRM complainer, unable to understand clear issues with the game and place the blame on a weapon.

I suggest using the search tool and reading through the hundreds of threads regarding LRMs.

See again, this line of reasoning is just plain stupid. Yup. I said it. Stupid.

Of course you can avoid the LRMs.

The point is that avoiding them, is just as annoying as dying to them. Seriously. Its the same thing. Id rather just walk out into the LRM storm and die, and get on to the next game, rather than sit behind cover for 4 minutes waiting to see which way the match is going to go.

[Ruhkil]

I use LRM mechs a lot and what people in this thread are missing on both sides of the argument is that it is not about an individual players skill. The issue with this game in general is that since we are fighting equal numbers of mechs in a closed environment with very few if any variables in a particular match an ammo based mech can be as effective as an energy based one. For instance in my LRM stormcrows or warhawks I have enough LRM ammo alone to last the whole match and can kill 2-3 mechs(or more) with that if they allow themselves to be locked on to. I rarely have to fire the lasers i put in all my builds for point defense. If we had a game mode with respawning tanks or AI enemies you would not have so many cheese builds ac/20 jager? short range no ecm creeper thats ammo based. He runs in to 4 myrmidon tanks with ppcs and loses a ton of armor and gives away his position.

the big issue is that in assault skirmish and in 50-60% of conquest games the best strategy is get everyone together in a death ball and wait for someone on the other team to walk around the wrong corner then shoot them alot with ppcs gauss and a narc or two and then follow them with lrms till they die. Add game modes where ammo is not refreshed between rounds. Add game modes that split up the team or require more balanced energy builds in order to succeed.

An example would be a 3 mission game set where you have to intercept/defend a convoy then maybe a skirmish match with the option to retreat or something and then a base defense. ammo and armor would not be replaced and then builds like LRM spammers or cheesy dual gauss builds would not have the combat stamina to win.

a seperate issue is that with the wave one clan mechs they used to be laser based combat machines in general that ran hot but could engage at multiple ranges and were competent fighters. after some of the clan PPC and laser nerfs it has become much more difficult to use my clan mechs, they LRM spam you are seeing is because the usual energy builds clan mechs would use are terrible and few have enough space and hardpoints for good ballistic weapons not to mention the crappy way clan ballistics and lasers spread damage.

in some ways clan machines are OP in that they can put out huge unfocused alphas. I can get firepower numbers in the 100's on some of my clan assaults just by mixing missles and lasers of various types. that plus ultra autocannons with the double tap can push the ludicrous numbers even higher. the drawback is that i can maybe only alpha once or twice and i cant play a sustained peekabo game so the deathballs cover the clan mechs weakness. if 4 DW are standing right next to each other(they go the same speed and so often end up in the same area) covering each other and spamming their huge weapon compliment what mech or group of mechs can get close?

Edited by Ruhkil, 04 November 2014 - 08:18 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Another example....you can avoid the hassle of going to the DMV, by never getting a drivers license.

Thats a legitimate way to never deal with the horrible pain and agony that is the DMV.

Is that really a solution however? Is simply avoiding the pain, which in itself causes pain, the solution? Of course not. The solution is to make the DMV not such a mind numbingly horrible place to go.

LRMs are the same way. Of course you can avoid them. But avoiding them, compensating for them, makes the game just as crappy as if you just walked out and got LRMed to death.

[mogs01gt]

KraftySOT, on 04 November 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

See again, this line of reasoning is just plain stupid. Yup. I said it. Stupid.
Of course you can avoid the LRMs.
The point is that avoiding them, is just as annoying as dying to them. Seriously. Its the same thing. Id rather just walk out into the LRM storm and die, and get on to the next game, rather than sit behind cover for 4 minutes waiting to see which way the match is going to go.

Again use the search feature and read through the hundreds of old thread regarding LRMs. Its common knowlege LRMs are only a problem for players who do not want to make the attempt at changing their play style.

Lots of my matches had LRMs in them, I never had a single issue with them and I never died to them. I spent most of the matches baiting LRMs. Its pretty easy.

[KraftySOT]

mogs01gt, on 04 November 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Again use the search feature and read through the hundreds of old thread regarding LRMs. Its common knowlege LRMs are only a problem for players who do not want to make the attempt at changing their play style.

Lots of my matches had LRMs in them, I never had a single issue with them and I never died to them. I spent most of the matches baiting LRMs. Its pretty easy.

Again missing the point.

The play style that you have to adapt to avoid them. Is just as crappy for many people, as not avoiding them at all.

Read.

Sitzkrieg sucks. Camping sucks.

Edited by KraftySOT, 04 November 2014 - 08:12 AM.

[Mercules]

Kensaisama, on 04 November 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Radar Dep is not going to help if you are under the influence of TAG, NARC, or in LOS of an enemy mech and actively targeted. AMS is not going to help if you are getting rained on by LRM40+ monsters, cover is not going to help if there isn't any, you cannot get to it in time if there is. or the other team is better organized at positioning even if there is cover to be had. ECM can be defeated easily now a days so thats not really an option either. Any further pearls of wisdom you care to share?

Sure... don't put yourself in a situation where the above are true.

Shoot the spotter.
AMS shoots down NARCs.

and um.... if the other team has out positioned you... they deserve to get fire landing on you.

[mogs01gt]

KraftySOT, on 04 November 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Again missing the point.
The play style that you have to adapt to avoid them. Is just as crappy for many people, as not avoiding them at all.
Read.
Sitzkrieg sucks. Camping sucks.

No, the issue is that bad players complain about a weapon that has 10+ counters do it.
Bad players do not want to adjust
Bad players want this to be an FPS game
Bad players have zero patience and zero tactics.

There are specific reasons why people complain about LRMs. None of them are due to the weapon itself. The only complaint someone may have is indirect fire which again is the easiest aspect of LRMs to avoid.

There is 3 counters to high PP FLD weapons. Cover, armor and high internal HP. Those same counters work for LRMs but guess want, cover nullifies them all and PP weapons are still superior to indirect fire.

Edited by mogs01gt, 04 November 2014 - 08:17 AM.