281 replies to this topic

[Voivode]

LOL at the people who are complaining about Dire Wolves with long range weapons and LRM spam. All of those builds are very vulnerable up close. Quit being a bunch of candyasses and push the other team.

....PUGS...

[KraftySOT]

And if you fix all the underlying issues, indirect fire, need for ghost heat, bad hitreg, rubber banding, etc...you have a COMPLETELY different game than you have today.

You cant just tell people that theres a way to mitigate these problems, as if thats a solution to the problem. The problem still exists, youre just really rudely telling people how to DEAL WITH IT.

Im not saying thats bad...but when its two years ... dude give it up. We get it. We know how to deal with it. Weve all had love hate relationships before.

The point is, we should be working towards fixing all of the underlying issues of the game, not just glossing over them and telling other people they suck. Get better.

Thats true to a degree, but you have to accept that theres still a fundamental flaw in the implementation of indirect fire, to the point where it has to be mitigated.

No one is whining about mitigating MGs or Medium Lasers, or even large lasers. Dual gauss gets a whine. Thats about it. No one is whining about most other weapon systems at this point because of systems implemented to balance them.

LRMs are a legacy issue thats been complained about for TWO YEARS with varying degrees of solutions.

How about we fix indirect?

[RiggsIron]

LRMs should be line of sight, but no 'targeting time'. And you could aim at a direction like any other weapon and it will fire there instead of hitting the ground.

They will still be a long range weapon that can do lots of damage.

But it wont be "Have ECM or die", or "Hide under Buildings Online" (HBO!)

Right now its like people have said on stream - its a binary weapon. Either you have ECM and they are useless - or you don't and get destroyed without being able to see the mechs killing your team.

Travel time might have to be increased a little bit as dodging them as direct fire would be very easy. Maybe still keep the guidance, but make them fire on a flatter plane rather than go up and down by 45 degrees and be able to avoid most obstacles. Make it 20 degress or something.

[Tenacious B]

Kensaisama, on 04 November 2014 - 06:27 AM, said:

Radar Dep is not going to help if you are under the influence of TAG, NARC, or in LOS of an enemy mech and actively targeted. AMS is not going to help if you are getting rained on by LRM40+ monsters, cover is not going to help if there isn't any

This is a bit extreme.. Situations where all of those variables align and radar dep becomes ineffective do not come along very often. You should NEVER get buried with LRMs with radar dep unless your team is getting rolled and you are severely outnumbered, when LOS is unavoidable. If this is an early in the map phenomenon, it sounds like someone getting picked off out in the open, somewhere they should never be. If there are lights in the backfield getting LOS, the LRM boats are typically way too far away to rain on you.

[KraftySOT]

Or because hundreds of players are farming Narc rewards....

[Roadbuster]

Noesis, on 01 November 2014 - 06:28 PM, said:

You have used a very limited argument of one type of assualt mech in this thread apparently as the cause for arguments and perhaps dont understand that a heavily armoured and slow assault should be piloted with some awareness and forethought than expecting the game to conform to your style of play and then using forum warrior methodology of trying to win or for your own personal gain.

While I agree that LRMs are ok to some degree, the OP got a point.
And that is that the current gameplay doesn't give alot of room to work with your mech.
I've seen assaults go down in seconds, and no torso twisting, ECM, AMS or use of JJ did much to slow that down.
Small fights still happen, where 2-3 mechs fight eachother, and these fights are great.
But the common thing we see is a blob moving towards another blob and the fatter blob with the longer range or higher alphas wins.

Regarding LRMs:
There are not many choices when piloting a slow IS mech.
Most IS assault mechs rely or have to rely on short/mid range weapons. So they have to get close to their targets to bring their firepower to the table.
There are two things a group can do now:

1. Stay in cover and wait for the opponents to come closer.
This will often end bad because the opponents just need 1-2 spotters and on a lot of maps you won't be able to hide from the incomming LRMs. Examples would be Canyon Network, Caustic Valley or Alpine.

2. You try to get close or push the opponents.
This can end very bad too, because to move you will have to leave the "save" cover and hope nobody is spotting or narcing you till you are at the next rather secure position.


The "problem" I have with LRMs is that in many cases there is nothing you can do to prevent getting killed by them in short time.
Getting narced without any ECM mech near you and in a spot where the next real cover is 100m away means you're either dead or so badly damaged that anything can kill you with ease.
And the constant LRM stream of Clan mechs doesn't make this any better. It's almost impossible to return fire with direct fire weapons when your cockpit is shaking nonstop.
AMS works for low numbers of missiles, but when yo get hammered by 50+ LRMs every few seconds even 2, 3 or 4 AMS won't make any difference (if you are lucky enough to have teammates who use AMS).


So imho, yes, LRMs still need some balancing work.

[Mercules]

KraftySOT, on 04 November 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

LRMs are a legacy issue thats been complained about for TWO YEARS with varying degrees of solutions.

How about we fix indirect?

It is only complained about because of misconceptions.

1. People think it is a no skill noob weapon
2. People think they are better than they are with no room to improve
3. People then falsly think they shouldn't be killed by "noob weapons"

So then they come and complain. LRMs really are not an issue. They are not "all pervasive" in my games, even the PuGs. I almost never are actually hit by them much less killed. If an average player like myself can easily avoid this weapon without cowering in cover it CAN'T be that powerful and overwhelming.

[Kensaisama]

Tenacious B, on 04 November 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

This is a bit extreme.. Situations where all of those variables align and radar dep becomes ineffective do not come along very often. You should NEVER get buried with LRMs with radar dep unless your team is getting rolled and you are severely outnumbered, when LOS is unavoidable. If this is an early in the map phenomenon, it sounds like someone getting picked off out in the open, somewhere they should never be. If there are lights in the backfield getting LOS, the LRM boats are typically way too far away to rain on you.

Only pointing out Tenacious that Radar Dep is not the final solution to LRM avoidance/mitigation.

[Mercules]

KraftySOT, on 04 November 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

Just because it isnt a problem for you, doesnt mean that it isnt a problem. Thats like saying burglary isnt a problem because youve neven been burglarized, and you have a security system and a gun. Its still a problem. Its still something to be corrected, even though youve corrected it for yourself.

No, it's like saying "Not all bikes need to be tricycles. I can ride and balance on a bike that only has two wheels and you could learn to ride one too." often with me giving you tips. You just want to tell me that almost no one can ride a two wheel bike and no one should be forced to because we could add extra wheels to all bikes and then you would be happy. "The things you have to do to ride two wheel bikes are unfulfilling. You have to balance, and keep moving slowly. If you need to stop you have to put a leg down. Sometimes you just want to sit there without any legs down and not moving without having to try and balance. See... we should have three wheel bikes!"

[Roadbuster]

Tenacious B, on 04 November 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

This is a bit extreme.. Situations where all of those variables align and radar dep becomes ineffective do not come along very often. You should NEVER get buried with LRMs with radar dep unless your team is getting rolled and you are severely outnumbered, when LOS is unavoidable.

As far as I know and from personal experience, radar dep does nothing against NARC.
The only counter to NARC is ECM or cover, and both are not always available.

I remember a situation where I got narced by some scout and neither radar dep nor immediately dropping down and running sideways while hugging a steep hill, after getting the missile warning, did stop the rain of LRMs for ~20 seconds.
When it finally stopped, my fresh 60kph Highlander had lost a leg, an arm, a side torso and almost all armor and weapons.

EDIT: I was using AMS and had half of our team near me.

Edited by Roadbuster, 04 November 2014 - 09:44 AM.

[Kensaisama]

Mercules, on 04 November 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

It is only complained about because of misconceptions.

1. People think it is a no skill noob weapon
2. People think they are better than they are with no room to improve
3. People then falsly think they shouldn't be killed by "noob weapons"

So then they come and complain. LRMs really are not an issue. They are not "all pervasive" in my games, even the PuGs. I almost never are actually hit by them much less killed. If an average player like myself can easily avoid this weapon without cowering in cover it CAN'T be that powerful and overwhelming.

Personally It is not the LRM system themselves, it is the chassis hardpoints where one can load up on LRMs. Then there is the matchmaker part of the equation where sometimes you get put in a team full of LRM's and the opposition has little or no, or you are up against a team full of LRM's and your side has little or no. I have been on both sides of the fence as well as the happy medium where there was little to no LRM's on either side. I think we can all agree that onesided stomps where Lurmageddon happened is not fun. I am generally speaking for the lonewolf que as this is where I have experienced this kind of issue the most, not so much group que, but it still happens.

Edited by Kensaisama, 04 November 2014 - 09:48 AM.

[Mercules]

Kensaisama, on 04 November 2014 - 09:42 AM, said:

Personally It is not the LRM system themselves, it is the chassis hardpoints where one can load up on LRMs. Then there is the matchmaker part of the equation where sometimes you get put in a team full of LRM's and the opposition has little or no, or you are up against a team full of LRM's and your side has little or no. I have been on both sides of the fence as well as the happy medium where there was little to no LRM's on either side. I think we can all agree that onesided stomps where Lurmageddon happened is not fun.

I don't get this, "It's not the LRMs that's the issue... it's the LRMs." That is what I just got out of that paragraph. See you say LRMs are not the issue but then you say one side got more than the other... so apparently LRMs ARE the issue in your eyes because if not it wouldn't matter that one side got more. See what I mean?

[Tenacious B]

Kensaisama, on 04 November 2014 - 09:36 AM, said:

Only pointing out Tenacious that Radar Dep is not the final solution to LRM avoidance/mitigation.

I do believe there is plenty of legitimacy to your concern however.. because of how strongly i think that radar dep might be the best counter to LRMs, even better than ECM alone. And I feel like it's absolutely necessary for me to equip it to maintain my playing style, which speaks to the state of the current meta. It really makes mastering your favorite mechs a must, to gain the extra module slot. There are far fewer people with radar dep equipped now, which = more locks = LRMageddon.

[Mercules]

Tenacious B, on 04 November 2014 - 09:50 AM, said:

I do believe there is plenty of legitimacy to your concern however.. because of how strongly i think that radar dep might be the best counter to LRMs, even better than ECM alone. And I feel like it's absolutely necessary for me to equip it to maintain my playing style, which speaks to the state of the current meta. It really makes mastering your favorite mechs a must, to gain the extra module slot. There are far fewer people with radar dep equipped now, which = more locks = LRMageddon.

Never unlocked Radar Dep... never saw a need to since LRMs are easily avoided.

[Kensaisama]

Mercules, on 04 November 2014 - 09:47 AM, said:

I don't get this, "It's not the LRMs that's the issue... it's the LRMs." That is what I just got out of that paragraph. See you say LRMs are not the issue but then you say one side got more than the other... so apparently LRMs ARE the issue in your eyes because if not it wouldn't matter that one side got more. See what I mean?

Yeah I see what you mean, LRM's in general are fine, the problem comes in when you get the LRM boats. Specifically when you get two or three of them together on one team. Thats why I mentioned in an earlier post to either reduce or restrict missile hardpoints. Thats why I mentioned Chassis hardpoints in the post you quoted.

Edited by Kensaisama, 04 November 2014 - 10:00 AM.

[Tenacious B]

Roadbuster, on 04 November 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

As far as I know and from personal experience, radar dep does nothing against NARC.
The only counter to NARC is ECM or cover, and both are not always available.

I remember a situation where I got narced by some scout and neither radar dep nor immediately dropping down and running sideways while hugging a steep hill, after getting the missile warning, did stop the rain of LRMs for ~20 seconds.
When it finally stopped, my fresh 60kph Highlander had lost a leg, an arm, a side torso and almost all armor and weapons.

EDIT: I was using AMS and had half of our team near me.

This is true about narc, but another plus to the radar dep is that it has an audible warning that people had you locked and lost LOS. When you are clearly out of LOS and still getting incoming missle warning and you don't hear that little "unlocking" sound from the module.. better find cover.

Edited by Tenacious B, 04 November 2014 - 09:57 AM.

[Apnu]

KraftySOT, on 04 November 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

How about we fix indirect?

No need to. I run LRM heavy mechs half the time I play. I'm an average pilot and LRMs only hit 40% of the time in the best of circumstances.

Between terrain, reliance on targeting info from other players, and ECM, indirect fire isn't the factor people say it is. Yes it sucks if a player is caught out in the open and there are a lot of LRM mechs on the field pouring fire, but its not the norm.

Those are rare good times for the LRM mech. Kinda like the rare good times GR+PPC DWF's see when someone crests a hill and stands there to admire the view. Thud! Zap! Cored. Doesn't happen all the time, its nice when it does unless you're the one cored.

Most of the time, LRMs miss. They're slow, and if you lose target lock during travel time, you've probably missed. If an enemy ECM mech wanders in the way and kills target lock, you've probably missed. If the target has half a brain and reacts when they hear the missile audio cue and moves toward cover, you're probably not hitting with your whole payload. I've been in an AWS-8Q w/ a 300 engine and been able to back away from CLRMs and watched the miss me. Then there's the locking bug, visually you'll have a lock, but the audio cue hasn't happened yet, so you don't have lock and any launches go in the dirt. Try listening for locks when there's a lot of fire going on around you, or you're taking fire, its very hard to hear. Run LRMs for a week and you'll see this clearly.

There are other issues in the game, LRMs aren't one of them.

Edited by Apnu, 04 November 2014 - 09:59 AM.

[pyrocomp]

You know, if it is really an issue... ask PGI to set limit on the tubes count rather than on hardpoints (alike to MW4 system maybe) and live with it. If LRM boats (and there is Mad Dog with lots of missile slots) still bother you with indirect fire then ask PGI to remove missile guidence and instead give LRM leading, thus running zigziag will assure you are not hit even if narced. If it still hurts... well, you're standing still (sniping or ambushing) and this is a designated countermeasure against you. Ther eis no need in complaining 'It's broken'. Consider peoviding some variat how to go around. If it does not fit with PGI (programming issues, lazines, wrong star alignment, wrong beer in cooler at their office, whatever) find another.

[Mercules]

Louis Brofist, on 04 November 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

LRMs are still a huge nuisance. You literally can't do ANYTHING without getting a lock. The only option is running your own ECM and that has serious limitations.

Like I said many times individually LRMs are not a problem on their own, they are not overpowered per se, but they CONTROL GAMEPLAY BY DEMANDING WAY TOO MUCH ATTENTION IN ORDER TO REACT TO THEM.

MWO HAS BECOME ABOUT COUNTERING AND DODGING LRMS 75% OF THE TIME.

THE VERY FACT THAT THERE'S SO MANY REALLY LONG THREADS CONSTANTLY POPPING UP ABOUT LRMS MEANS THEY ARE A PROBLEM.

Yes, but it doesn't mean the LRMs are the problem. It means:

"I'm a good player so LRMs must be broken cause they hit me!"

[kazlaton]

You know...I ALMOST wish they would remove indirect fire. JUST so that when the lrm haters continue to die to lrms (because a good pilot doesn't need indirect fire) we can sit back and laugh at whatever their next excuse will be.