86 replies to this topic

[pyrocomp]

Well, I've read all above and point by point, I think I can answer all said above.

Setting aside coding time, I reasonably doubt that it is technically impossible for correct aiming with this engine. It just can require to write additional functions in place of existing, but it is not my place to argue, PGI has the code and time and issues.

About unaffected brawlers or other short to mid ranges. I do not propose convergence imperfection to be a 30 degrees cone. No bigger than current recticle on highest (I don't like random shooting and turnin mechs into shotguns) and about or less the circle of arms aim in average. This will dissalow for average (without modules/top gyros/skill and patience) to hit with alpha a mech across more than 1 km. This will lead to damage spread on long ranges (600 m or so) over big mechs and give a little of extra protection for lights. But skill will be dominant anyways.

Plus, and I see it from posts above, there should be the way to predict the shot direction. Maybe, and this is an issue for a test, there should be like tiny triangle (different colored) over recticle to show where each weapon is targeted, thus you know where you will shoot. Then skill and patience, and you have your 'sniper' back, but no alphas to single point across the map (yet alphas on short range still the very same). Each weapons aim slowly floats, so whait and use it. I can say that it won't overload UI, but... I'd definately want to see it and try.

As for the covergence of Abrams and other real life... oh, high stars, the best accuracy on medium distances from stationary gun with laser corrected acive projectile is no less than 1 m. At best weather conditions and without any kind of countermeasure. Just specs and testing. Yes, a 1 m diameter circle where the projectile will land. So... as much as I was surprised by low accuracy of BT guns so is the choises and situation behind the BT Universe and... There are many shooter and othe sims (inluding WoT) where there is no such problem. This is BT and let it be that way, or we will have othe issues like laser pulse scatter, running on shot-off leg and other illogicals from IRL-viewpoint.

Regarding running speed... Hmmm, I think I agree that this should not punish lights, but still, how many lights cary long range weapons and suffer from this? Really, agian, I mean small deviations, not degrees.

[Xanquil]

Viktor Drake, on 02 November 2014 - 10:56 AM, said:

Seriously, the main gun on an M1A2 Abrams tank can on the fly calculate and adjust on the fly based on terrain, heat, humidity, speed of gun platform and speed of target and easily hit targets moving 60-70 kph so why is it a stretch that 1000 years in the future, they can't have something even more sophisticated?

Sorry this is a not a valid argument. M1A2 takes a few seconds to "acquire lock" and even when it does It will not hit the exact location aimed at. It also still has a chance to miss. If anything the TC in an Abrams works more like a LRM/SSRM IN MWO than any of the direct fire weapons. In addition it also is only controlling one weapon, removing it form any talk of multi weapon convergence.

[RockmachinE]

Do we need to go through this again? Convergence stays, its a good thing, tabletop and real time game can't be compared.

[pyrocomp]

Allen Ward, on 02 November 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

Just deal with it and check if it means fun to oyu or not.

I deal with it and it's fun, but there is always a search for more fun of different ways. Anyway, if this wasn't brinning fun I wouldn't be palying.

[Foxfire]

Louis Brofist, on 02 November 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

Do we need to go through this again? Convergence stays, its a good thing, tabletop and real time game can't be compared.

No, they can't.. but then you also end up with asinine systems that are implemented to address issues that were better addressed with convergence.

[pyrocomp]

Louis Brofist, on 02 November 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

Do we need to go through this again? Convergence stays, its a good thing, tabletop and real time game can't be compared.

Convergence is there, and is not removed, it's not the point to have it, the point is how it works and what it gives.

And about agian, I did some digging, but wasn't able to find this threads and topics any close to surface. There are many years (yes, not a year) and many topics and search hadn't helped. All I found were topics about 'Do we have convergence or we have no convergence at all?'. If there was somewhere deep this part, ok, question is nihil, but provide a link, I'll read that with great interest.

Edited by pyrocomp, 02 November 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Louis Brofist, on 02 November 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

Do we need to go through this again? Convergence stays, its a good thing, tabletop and real time game can't be compared.

Convergence is fine; is magical instantaneous perfectly pinpoint convergence fine?

[pyrocomp]

Mcgral18, on 02 November 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Convergence is fine; is magical instantaneous perfectly pinpoint convergence fine?

Yep, that's the point.

[C E Dwyer]

Kiryuin Ragyo, on 02 November 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Precise Laser is precise.
(c) Sincerely yours captain Obvious.

your font is immature, using large font to try prove a point doesn't impress.

A laser goes precisely where it is aimed, if one isn't aimed in the right place it might as well point at the moon, targeting is what aims the laser, weak targeting computers is or rather should be part of the game, so convergence even on lasers is still valid

[Foxfire]

I think the distinction needs to be made.

The discussion about convergence isn't about actual convergence.. but about instant convergence vs time based convergence.

Should we be able to do a snap shot at any single point we want to? Or should we have to wait 2 seconds to get a perfect shot on that same pin point?

Personally, I wouldn't mind something along the line of the Planetside 1 Bolt Driver, but with predictable performance for non optimal shot vs the CoF 'bloom' that you received.

Edited by Foxfire, 02 November 2014 - 12:31 PM.

[kapusta11]

PGI forbid use of 3+ Gauss rifles, we basically have 30 damage cap, why not apply it to all weapons, except for lasers and missiles, those should have something like 40? That way you would address alpha damage only. No RNG, no performance issues, no need for weapon specific nerfs, no/less laser vomit, everyone happy.

Edited by kapusta11, 02 November 2014 - 12:42 PM.

[Rebas Kradd]

I'm not part of the competitive crowd, and I acknowledge weapon convergence is a silly mechanic. But I haven't seen anyone yet who has a better idea. Constant divergence is frustrating and un-fun (and nerfs every weapon, forcing balance to start all over), movement-related divergence is silly and turns the game into CS, and sized hardpoints kill too much customization. MechWarrior is really not an ideal game to balance.

[pyrocomp]

To clarify things, the initial point was about convergence to a point without any question over time taken to reconverge to another distance/target (i don't mind instant, I will like it very fast, I won't like it if it take more than a second or two). But where this discussion is going now, well, I'll see.

[Foxfire]

pyrocomp, on 02 November 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

To clarify things, the initial point was about convergence to a point without any question over time taken to reconverge to another distance/target (i don't mind instant, I will like it very fast, I won't like it if it take more than a second or two). But where this discussion is going now, well, I'll see.

This is the nature of such discussions!

I fall on the side of wanting a (very short) time based convergence to make it more of a choice between accurate firing and mobility. I also don't want it implemented if it is a CoF or any form of random system.. but if it is implemented as a predictable mechanic(e.g. consistent performance each time) and is a short time frame to get perfect convergence, I think it would be great for the game.

[pyrocomp]

Rebas Kradd, on 02 November 2014 - 12:35 PM, said:

I'm not part of the competitive crowd, and I acknowledge weapon convergence is a silly mechanic. But I haven't seen anyone yet who has a better idea. Constant divergence is frustrating and un-fun (and nerfs every weapon, forcing balance to start all over), movement-related divergence is silly and turns the game into CS, and sized hardpoints kill too much customization. MechWarrior is really not an ideal game to balance.

No, convergence in place, even to the level you can still hit a mech with all wour weapons midrange. So no fun lost. Especially for non-competitive users.

[pyrocomp]

Foxfire, on 02 November 2014 - 12:42 PM, said:

I also don't want it implemented if it is a CoF or any form of random system.. but if it is implemented as a predictable mechanic(e.g. consistent performance each time) and is a short time frame to get perfect convergence, I think it would be great for the game.

Does the shown rectile for each weapon you have slowly floating around center point and reaaly tight around it qualify as a perfect convergence? You still hit a mech, but on long rande the damage is always spread (unless modules, equippment and such)? E.g. deviation is random, but you know where it's going?

Edited by pyrocomp, 02 November 2014 - 12:47 PM.

[YueFei]

Mcgral18, on 02 November 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Convergence is fine; is magical instantaneous perfectly pinpoint convergence fine?

They have wrapped a bunch of bandages on the wound, like Ghost Heat, Gauss charge mechanic, projectile velocities being slowed down almost all across the board, etc.

At this point maybe tackling the core issue would be simpler and less work.

[SweetJackal]

What we currently have:

SuckyJack, on 03 October 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

Instant Convergence (Instant-Dynamic Convergence)

This is currently what we have in the game. Wherever your cross-hairs land that is the point all weapon fire lines cross.

Legend:
Blue Lines = Instant Convergence Weapons
Purple Lines = Fixed Convergence Weapons
Red Cross-hair = Your Targeting Reticule
Green Circle = Optimum Range
Textured Square = Intervening Terrain



As you can see it doesn't matter where the weapons are mounted, where your target is in relation to your optimum range or anything else, you move the targeting cursor over what you want to hit and click a button. Point and click, the computer does the rest.

What I believe should be used is this:

SuckyJack, on 03 October 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

Mixed Convergence (Mixing Static and Instant-Dynamic Convergence)

Enjoy more awesome artwork!

Legend:
Blue Lines = Instant Convergence Weapons
Purple Lines = Fixed Convergence Weapons
Red Cross-hair = Your Targeting Reticule
Green Circle = Optimum Range
Textured Square = Intervening Terrain



So why do I like this?

It makes the choices and skills of the player matter more. It achieves the aim of increasing damage spread, reducing the amount of damage a single volley does to one component in a manner that can be mitigated by player skill (the same way that Torso Twisting is using player skill to spread damage and reduce damage to the individual components.) It makes the mech you choose and where the weapons are placed on that mech matter more. It adds additional trade-offs to arms that give up lateral movement to mount heavier weapons. It makes positioning and adjusting for the offset so much more important in the game itself.

It makes long ranged weapons situationally more difficult to use depending on the build. If mounted in a location that has Static Convergence it won't automatically adjust for the shorter distance. It means that the two ERLLs you have mounted in your STs will not pinpoint the same location as the 4MLs you have mounted in your STs when up close. It means that there is more value to having those ERLLs in your arms instead.

It makes CT and Head mounted weapons even more valuable as these weapons are already centered and therefore easier to use

At this point I can gush on and on about it. Gauss Cats and Jagers would need to stagger their shots and offset for the difference between their mountings and optimum range or place themselves at an optimum range band to ensure both slugs hit the same location, Dire Whales would spread damage around more, Joke PPC Builds wouldn't be smashing one location with every shot. It gives more importance to the range and role of your weapons as well as where you mount them.

More so, it is done so in a consistent manner. Because the offset would be consistent you would be able to learn it and adjust for it, increasing depth and raising the skill ceiling. This is the biggest shot against Cone Of Fire as random isn't consistent, can't be adjusted for and limits the skill ceiling.

This gets around the problem of having the Hit Reg freak out over Delayed Convergence or the slow % gain to reaching 100% perfect convergence, which were the technical limits to that initial design. We still have and would use instant convergence but that convergence we see in the game would only used by weapons mounted in arms with lower arm actuators. Weapons in Limited Arms (Like Cats and Jagers) as well as Torso Mounted weapons would be fixed to converge at their optimum range.

Forces a damage spread that can be mitigated or even eliminated by skill, timing and positioning.

Edited by SuckyJack, 02 November 2014 - 01:18 PM.

[Foxfire]

pyrocomp, on 02 November 2014 - 12:47 PM, said:

Does the shown rectile for each weapon you have slowly floating around center point and reaaly tight around it qualify as a perfect convergence? You still hit a mech, but on long rande the damage is always spread (unless modules, equippment and such)? E.g. deviation is random, but you know where it's going?

I imagine something similar to that but eventually achieving perfect convergence(e.g. homing in on true center). My issue isn't with perfect convergence itself.. but with instant perfect convergence.

[Lockon StratosII]

Why?
Short answer: status quo

Long answer: a chunk of players don't want their most effective toys nerfed so some of them throw arguments like "CoF is bad" and "I want to hit where I aim" whenever they see a thread on convergence even before reading said proposals and other half that gives said proposes is usually welcomed wtih "L2aim" posts to which they reply with "crutch alpha" posts and such. In the middle of all that are devs that are not willing to admit their previous atempts to fix this have failed or have too much pride to look at some of suggested solutions which bypass their excuse of "too much server stress".

Meanwhile light and mediums get the short end of the stick which can be seen by their numbers in queue because they can't handle 30+ damage PPFLD alphas because modular armor system we have is not built for that kind of drilling effect so players gravitate to heavier mechs which are more forgiving.

It's a no win situation and nobody wants to poke the hornets nest so devs steer clear from it and nothing will change until someone grows some backbone and fixes it before the problem becomes obvious when new weapons down the timeline like heavy gauss or HAG or heavy ppc + ppc capacitors come into play