117 replies to this topic

[Felio]

They seem to always be tweaking lasers and, to a lesser extent, missiles. Sometimes it goes beyond what you could call tweaking.

They've acknowledged ballistics seem to have an edge.

They did reduce maximum range to TT values and normalize DPS some time ago. It didn't really affect what makes ballistics so good, which is high pinpoint FLD.

A scan of the forums on any given day indicates high pinpoint FLD is an issue and has been for some time. Even when they addressed PPC + dual gauss, they dared not touch the coveted ballistics class of weapons, reducing PPC projectile speed instead.

After all, in that coveted class, none is more revered than the gauss rifle. It gets to do more pinpoint FLD damage with no penalty than lasers get to do over 1 second (or longer) at shorter range.

Ghost heat didn't really do squat to ballistics, except the build without high FLD, the AC/2 boats -- a subject that required its own thread explaining it. The AC/40 build doesn't even need to chain fire, as if 0.5 seconds makes a difference in AC/20 range to begin with.

Admittedly, they've reduced AC/20 projectile speed a couple of times so it couldn't as easily be used outside its effective range. Again, it doesn't seem to really effect what ballistics do so well, while they seem to have no problem changing every single aspect of lasers and missiles, even fundamentally changing what they do, like with streaks.

OK, they're heavy. They're not hitscan, and they don't lock on and aim themselves. But it seems like that is used as an excuse to let them go on being better than they should be.

[FupDup]

If they're "better than they should be" then why is the overall most effective mech in the game a laser-and/or-SRM-puking 75 ton heavy?

[Alexander MacTaggart]

FupDup, on 30 October 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

If they're "better than they should be" then why is the overall most effective mech in the game a laser-and/or-SRM-puking 75 ton heavy?

I'm not sure what this post has to do with (e: IS) ballistics and their PPFLD?

Edited by Alexander MacTaggart, 30 October 2014 - 12:51 PM.

[5LeafClover]

Personally, I don't see the problem. There are only 3 ballistics with high pin point damage and each has a serious weakness:
AC20 - Very short range. By the time they reach you, you've had plenty of warning
Gauss - A double edged sword. The charge mechanism isn't too bad, but they're too much of an asset to place in the arm, and too much of a ticking time bomb to be in ST. It takes so little to make it go kaboom, I can never see the case for taking it.
AC10 - Far too heavy for what it is. Shorter range and similar speed to PPC, nearly double the weight and then you need the limited ammo on top

[FupDup]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

I'm not sure what this post has to do with (e: IS) ballistics and their PPFLD?

Because they're being outclassed by some other option that isn't PPFLD?

[5LeafClover]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 30 October 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

I'm not sure what this post has to do with (e: IS) ballistics and their PPFLD?

My guess, it means IS ballistics can't be that OP if the mechs than carry them can't beat a non-ballistic mech.

[Cygone]

Just leave them alone, they weight 1/2 your 'Mech. in the case of the AC2/5/10/LB you either need to stare at your opponent or you spread damage.

Gauss is horrible as a brawling weapon,

AC/20 has its place as a weapon that shines for IS vs. all the totally OP Clan weapons.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Cygone, on 30 October 2014 - 12:59 PM, said:

AC/20 has its place as a weapon that shines for IS vs. all the totally OP Clan weapons.

Totally OP like the UAC20? Oh wait...

[Rhaegor]

Because there is no reason to get tough on them.

[Xarian]

What's the problem with ballistics, really? The only ones that are remotely overpowered are the isAC/20, isGauss, and cGauss. If anything, most of the ballistics need to be buffed.

- Gauss - overpowered due to crit mechanics, heat generation and range
- AC/20 - slightly overpowered due to crit mechanics, otherwise balanced by heat, short range, heavy weight, and crit slots
- AC/10 - somewhat underpowered due to heat generation
- LB 10-X - somewhat underpowered due to pellet spreading
- AC/5 - fine
- UAC/5 - fine
- AC/2 - very underpowered due to heat generation

- cGauss - overpowered due to heat generation and range
- cAC/anything - very underpowered due to being identical to ultra with greater crit slots and no double tap
- cUAC/20 - very underpowered due to heat generation and number of projectiles
- cLB 20-X - somewhat underpowered due to pellet spread
- cUAC/10 - somewhat underpowered due to heat generation
- cLB 10-X - somewhat underpowered due to pellet spread
- cUAC/5 - fine
- cLB 5-X - fine
- cUAC/2 - very underpowered due to heat generation
- cLB 2-X - very underpowered due to heat generation

What do I mean by crit mechanics?
If an AC/20 crits, it does 20 full damage per crit. This means that if you have 19 armor, the weapon can crit and deal 19 armor + 21 internal damage (maximum crit = 19 armor + 61 internal damage)
The AC/20 will crit less often than small-damage weapons, but when it crits, you will usually get a kill because it does the full damage.
1x 25% chance to deal +20 damage is better than 20x 25% chances to deal +1 damage.

If a cLB 20-X crits, it does 1 damage per crit per pellet. This means that if you have 19 armor, 19 pellets will hurt your armor (no crits) and 1 pellet can crit, leading to 19 armor + 1 internal damage (maximum crit = 19 armor + 3 internal damage).
The LB 20-X will crit more often than large-damage weapons, but when it crits, you will usually not get a kill because the damage is in small increments.
1x 25% chance to deal +20 damage is better than 20x 25% chances to deal +1 damage.

I'd wager to say the only reason that the AC/20 is considered the "best" is because of the crit mechanics.

Edited by Xarian, 30 October 2014 - 01:08 PM.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Xarian, on 30 October 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

I'd wager to say the only reason that the AC/20 is considered the "best" is because of the crit mechanics.

While those don't hurt it, I'm pretty sure the reason the AC20 is so much more popular than the 5 or 10 is that it does 20 damage, instantly, to one hit location. The bonus crit stuff is just icing on top. And the name of the game is high alpha and twist away.

Yes, you can do 20 damage to one location with 4 Medium lasers, but you have to keep them on target for a full second, which means you have to face the enemy and compensate for movement the entire time, all while leaving yourself open to retaliation.

So the issue isn't really how much damage it does, the issue is how it does that damage. Pinpoint and front-loaded.

[Archon]

I don't understand this "no penalty" BS that people keep claiming Gauss rifles have. Gauss rifles have been nerfed extensively and have loads of penalties; they have a charge time that significantly impacts aiming (you have to have damn good timing to hit a moving target with a weapon that charges, if they're standing still shame on them) they take up a large amount of critical space, 1 ton of their ammo is only 10 rounds, and OH YEAH THEY EXPLODE AND TAKE OUT HALF OR POSSIBLY ALL OF YOUR MECH WHEN DESTROYED. You're paying for that firepower. Deal with it.

[Brody319]

IS:
Ac2 rather underwhelming but good I guess if you really want to bring them.
Ac5s balanced and decent.
Ac10 same as the ac5.
Ac20 with its heat its pretty balanced in my opinion.
Gauss Problems arise here, you got a high damage, super accurate, long distance, low heat weapon. Litterally has no disadvantages besides the ammo requirement.

UAC5 pretty balanced, the jamming is a real pain because its random so entirely possible to jam all at once and be pretty screwed for a few seconds.
LBX - balanced, they have a high crit but the shotgun mechanic means they can't be used at anything but medium to long range.

Clan:
All the clan's regular AC get progressively worse than their IS counterparts because of the multiple slug mechanic, spreads the damage and lets the enemy survive easier.

Clan UAC-s are all pretty balanced. They jam just as much as IS ones, and generate a lot more heat. to the point where a UAC 20 is almost useless.

Clan LB-X are probably the only things that are better than their IS counterparts because of the weight. Slow firing speeds means they don't generate a lot of heat anyway.

Clan gauss. Most broken ballistic weapon. Lighter than the IS counterpart it basically ruins people's days and enables Clan mechs to dish out a ton of damage very quickly. Suffers from everything the IS one does but weights even less.



Overall I'd say everything but the Gauss is balanced. when CW hits we will see the issues with ballistics when people start running out of it. Only changes I think are needed are to the gauss.

[Xarian]

Archon, on 30 October 2014 - 01:38 PM, said:

I don't understand this "no penalty" BS that people keep claiming Gauss rifles have. Gauss rifles have been nerfed extensively and have loads of penalties; they have a charge time that significantly impacts aiming (you have to have damn good timing to hit a moving target with a weapon that charges, if they're standing still shame on them)

They also have near-hitscan travel times at medium and short ranges, making it fairly easy once you practice - just like every ballistic weapon.

Quote

they take up a large amount of critical space

Just like every ballistic weapon.

Quote

1 ton of their ammo is only 10 rounds

150 damage per ton, just like every ballistic weapon, except the AC/20 which is 140 damage per ton.

Quote

and OH YEAH THEY EXPLODE AND TAKE OUT HALF OR POSSIBLY ALL OF YOUR MECH WHEN DESTROYED.

This only matters if someone is shooting you in that particular hit location, and only if you don't have CASE (all Clan mechs have CASE, even in the arms).

Quote

You're paying for that firepower. Deal with it.

And the point is that, compared to other weapons, you get too much and pay too little. This is what "overpowered" means.

Keep humping those overpowered weapons, bro.

On the other hand:

Zero heat - means you can keep firing them even when you are at 99% heat thanks to your gigantic laser/PPC alpha. Means you can run two of them at exactly the same efficiency as running a single.
Near-hitscan projectiles at medium range - means that you can core a light as soon as it pokes its torso over a ridge for 0.5 seconds, as long as you charged up your weapon ahead of time.
No penalty for charging and letting off - means that you can constantly charge the weapons for snap fire, as in the situation described above. This makes the charge mechanic fairly easy to deal with.
Critical mechanics - let you get critical hits by punching through rear armor unless they take 15 or more armor. This is enough to kill most mechs in 2 shots, heavier mechs can survive 3.
No exploding ammo - put your Gauss ammo wherever you want. Lessens penalties for boating Gauss, unlike AC/5 boats or dual AC/20 mechs.
Max range = 3x optimum range - they do 7.5 damage at 1320 range, making them better at long-ranged engagements than any of the weapons designed for long-ranged engagements.

The Gauss rifle is basically a version of the AC/20 where you trade 25% of your damage for quadruple (and more) the range, elimination of all heat penalties, an extremely fast projectile, and additional penalties if the enemy is shooting at you.

Tell me, which of these do you think has the highest win rate?
- A team where every mech has 1 or more Gauss rifle
- A team where every mech has 1 or more AC/20
- A team where every mech has 1 or more AC/5

Edited by Xarian, 30 October 2014 - 02:17 PM.

[CDLord HHGD]

I would say ACs alone are in a good place. I've had ideas, complaints, epiphanies, but right now, I think they are OK. They are HEAVY and require ammo to boot. That is their balance. Do I like it when I get chewed to **** by a UAC5 Dire Whale? Nope. Did that Timber Wolf like it when I snuck up behind it (In an Orion no less) and alpha tick it, coring it instantly? Probably not.

Do I think something should be done about PPFLD? Yep. Do I know exactly what that is? Not a chance.

[Davers]

I think ACs are in a decent place myself. If they need to be toned down, I would start with removing all the 'bonus' ammo they got back in Beta.

[Bhael Fire]

Yeah they need to get tough on cUACs.

I suggest reducing the burst from 5 rounds to a rapid 3-round burst.

Other than that, I think ACs are in a really good place.

Oh wait you meant you want to NERF ACs?

Nevermind.

[Xarian]

Bhael Fire, on 30 October 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

Yeah they need to get tough on cUACs.

I suggest reducing the burst from 5 rounds to a rapid 3-round burst.

Other than that, I think ACs are in a really good place.

Oh wait you meant you want to NERF ACs?

Nevermind.

cUAC/5 already does 3-round bursts

[Kain Demos]

It seems like a lot of bitter people won't be happy until the Gauss is removed from the game.

It has already had its optimum range drastically reduced, a stupid charge mechanic added to it, and a limit of two fired at a time. The ammo is safe but the gun itself crits if you look at it wrong and takes half your 'mech with it. What more do you guys want?

Personally I want it to be a "real" gauss rifle. Pump that velocity up to 4000-5000 m/s and get rid of the charge mechanic but make the recycle time something much higher than anything in the game now. 7-8.5 seconds or something like that.

[Impyrium]

ACs seem fine to me. As in, I see no reason to change them- they have their place and leave their mark when you fall into a situation which suits them. Just because they have that situation, doesn't make them OP. AC20s especially- they are not OP just because they punish players for getting too close. That's the whole point of spending the tonnage on it.

Every other AC is actually pretty underwhelming except on certain 'Mechs. Certainly not 'OP'.

And, I tend to disagree that guass is a problem. There's only three 'Mechs I know of that cause issues with them- the Dire Wolf, which is obvious, the Jager and the odd Cataphract I still see with dual guass.

I haven't played a Cat, so I can't speak for them, nor are they common enough to be a problem for em.

The Dire Wolf also makes sense. It's a one hundred ton Clan assault 'Mech which can be outrun by a snail. The tradeoff is the sheer 'oh ****' moment you get when you walk in front of it. Again, just because it can kill you, doesn't make it 'OP'.

The Jager has paper thin armour, and easily dispatched. Again, it makes the Jager sort of unique so coming across a sniper isn't a bad thing.

So... I really don't see myself why there's such a big issue. If anything lasers are the ones causing the most trouble at the moment, but that doesn't make them 'OP' or unfair.