22 replies to this topic

[Uller Phrost]

Ok after trying the the Pok e Mech dark age game I stop playing and just got back a bit ago and I have been reading about this Jihad stuff...were they trying to destory the game? unmanned super mechs? Did any thing not get nuked down to the sub crust. How can anyone that plays classic battletech eat this? The whole thing reads like the systematic genoside of the human race by WoB. They did more damage in 10 years then Stefan Amiris, the clan invasion and the sucession wars. 4 to 40 divisons in a few years? They built a quarter of the total exodus fleet from nothing. I see some of this gargage seems to be published by Cat labs. Does anyone even play that jihad or did we buy those books and bury them. I plan on ignoring everything after operation White as game breaking.

Sorry been reading these books and couldn't help the rant and had vent

everyone else agree?

[MilitantMonk]

Yep that about sums up the Jihad. So much hand waving and armies out of thin air I just couldn't stomach any of it.

[Arctic Fox]

The problem with the Jihad is that nobody seems to have actually read it before they start inventing stuff that never happens and then complain about it.

Uller Phrost, on 25 June 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

unmanned super mechs?

I haven't heard of any. There are some experimental remote-controlled 'Mechs fielded in small numbers towards the end, but they have some very serious disadvantages compared to standard 'Mechs.

Uller Phrost, on 25 June 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

Did any thing not get nuked down to the sub crust.

Yeah, such as, for example, the vast majority of everything.

Uller Phrost, on 25 June 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

How can anyone that plays classic battletech eat this? The whole thing reads like the systematic genoside of the human race by WoB. They did more damage in 10 years then Stefan Amiris, the clan invasion and the sucession wars.

That's utterly false. Besides the harder to quantify general damage, the Jihad is responsible for the destruction of, IIRC, 11 worlds*. According to a post by Øystein on the BT forums a few days ago, the number of lost worlds in the early Succession Wars is around 750.

* - EDIT: Well, actually, that might be around 14, unless I missed any.

Uller Phrost, on 25 June 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

4 to 40 divisons in a few years? They built a quarter of the total exodus fleet from nothing. I see some of this gargage seems to be published by Cat labs. Does anyone even play that jihad or did we buy those books and bury them. I plan on ignoring everything after operation White as game breaking.

A Word of Blake Division is the size of two combined arms Regiments, usually slightly less than a Regiment of 'Mechs and supporting vehicles, infantry and ASFs. An SLDF (BattleMech) Division, such as those that participated in the Exodus, is 6 'Mech Regiments and 3 conventional Regiments. I'm sure you can see the distinction. And the Word of Blake's force was actually very small compared to the time they had to build up and the resources they had.

Uller Phrost, on 25 June 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

Sorry been reading these books and couldn't help the rant and had vent

everyone else agree?

No. I don't mind if people don't like the Jihad, but they can at least try to get the facts straight beforehand.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 25 June 2012 - 07:48 AM.

[Zalikar]

The number of "out of the air" divisions that WoB conjured up is't all that different than the numbers ComStar suddenly had at the end of the Clan Invasion.

Don't get me wrong here, I think the Jihad was a load of bull, and was used only as a way to link Classic with Dark Age when WizKids owned the property. I will, however, refrain from my own rant on the subject.

[Steven Dixon]

I sort-of have to agree with Artic Fox. I hated the Jihad/Dark Ages, it turned me off of BT for many years (before that I was a hardcore fan). The whole concept of this small cult suddenly taking over the whole Inner Sphere and this 'Mary Sue' called Devin Stone rescuing everyone seemed really silly. However a few years ago I decided to get back into BT and decided I would actually give the Jihad books a read (I liked several of catalyst labs other works). And actually they weren't bad (I even really liked parts of them), and they did an ok job of explaining how something like the jihad happened.

I still don't like really anything after the FedCom civil war, but I would encourage some of you hardcore fans to at least give the Jihad books a whirl.

[Sychodemus]

Well, the Jihad phase is over, so don't worry about it too much.

As far as the damage inflicted, the Word of Blake started the whole deal, but mainly focused their energy on capital worlds. The majority of the actual destruction in the Jihad was caused - as usual - by the Successor States; either against themselves or each other. This was due largely to the fact that WoB isolated the House Lords from their respective States, leaving lower-tier governors to their own devices.

[Steven Dixon]

Sychodemus, on 25 June 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

Well, the Jihad phase is over, so don't worry about it too much.

As far as the damage inflicted, the Word of Blake started the whole deal, but mainly focused their energy on capital worlds. The majority of the actual destruction in the Jihad was caused - as usual - by the Successor States; either against themselves or each other. This was due largely to the fact that WoB isolated the House Lords from their respective States, leaving lower-tier governors to their own devices.

What do you mean over, we better get ready for it in MWO, in only 20 short years we are going to have to deal with the wobbies.

Edited by Steven Dixon, 25 June 2012 - 03:01 PM.

[Surtr]

I've always seen the Jihad as the "Clan Invasion" of the middle generation of BT fans. The really old school guys hate/d the clans and all their newfangledness, while those who grew up with the clans see the Jihad as the stupid newfangled-over-powered usurpers.

[Karl Streiger]

There are two reasons why i like the Jhihad Era.
First and foremost - great moments of my tabletop unit the 1st Skye Jaeger

While the authors did everything to make the clans nice and neet - the Word of Blake is evil - no illusion about that. That means nearly every battle was fought with desperation and no mercy. You have some really good plots, too

[JackCrow]

I am not sure what kind of dope the people at Catalyst were smoking, but it must be strong stuff.

Nobody, outside of the real hardcores understand, or even care enough to understand the Jihad. The storyline in Battletech went from bad to worse.. The Fedcom civil war was not that great of storyline and then they went to something even more unappealing.

If the writers had any sense, they would have rebooted the franchise and started over in 3067 after the civil war. They would have ticked off maybe a dozen people, but we would have ended up with a storyline that was intelligible.

[Zergling]

Well, I kind of liked the Jihad storyline.

It was put together a lot better than the Clan Invasion ever was (which is still going through retconns today to fix).

[UlricKessler]

I'm late for this discussion, but the problem with Jihad is that everything about it feels rushed to be honost. Have any of you read the 3075 Technical Readout? It's a jumbled mess compared to the earlier books. Same thing with alot of the books put out for the Jihad, they appear rushed.

I think another thing that plays into the rather unfavorable view of the Jihad is that it pretty much represented the death of Battletech for the older generations like myself. Also while I'm not a fan of much of the Jihad or anything, I would like to see some actual novels written. Oh yeah sure I know about the short stories, but I'm talking some real novels guys. That might help turn the view points around a bit.

[Kyone Akashi]

What you said about the jumbled mess and the death of Battletech reminds me a lot of how my veteran lancemates described the introduction of the Clans to me - see Surtr-san's comment.

I guess there really is a strong "ewwww it's new! stuff changes! burn it!" factor to such changes in an established and beloved setting. Which I've been influenced by in a number of franchises myself. I suppose my advantage is that I'm that new to Battletech that I get to experience it as a whole package - the Succession Wars, the Clans, the Jihad, the Dark Age - compared to the earlier "generations" who started with the Succession Wars and hated the Clans, or who started with the Clans and hated the Jihad, etc.

I don't care much for the Jihad myself, though. However, the Dark Age novels I've read have been very entertaining so far!

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 20 May 2013 - 03:40 AM.

[Nerroth]

Personally, I think the best thing to come out of Catalyst's coverage of the Jihad era has been The Wars of Reaving; which takes a look at what was happening in the Clan Homeworlds during this time period. It was the first real opportunity which CGL had to show something "new" (as in largely unspoiled by MechWarrior: Dark Age/Age of Destruction), and it resulted in a sourcebook (and supplemental file) that's been as good a file as there has been in the current line of BattleTech publications. Not only did it truly hammer home how utterly isolated the Council of Six Clans are from their former holdings in the Pentagon and Kerensky Cluster, but underscores the dangers which have emerged through the changes wrought among each of the surviving Homeworld Clans.

Whether or not we'll see those Clans show up post-3145 or not, however, remains to be seen.


But as for the Jihad proper, I skipped ahead to Jihad Hot Spots: Terra and Jihad: Final Reckoning (and the Masters and Minions dossier file). JHS:Terra includes a handy look at Terran history, one presented in the "standard" sourcebook format (and which has fed into more recent historical files set during the late Star League era), while J:FR includes a timeline that helps give a better sense of what happen when and where in the Inner Sphere and near Periphery during this period (not counting events from WoR, which remain a mystery to the Spheroids at this point).


But I have to say that I'm much more interested in the eras to follow; which is why I like Field Manual: 3085, and why I'll be so keen to check out FM:3145 once it shows up. The former helps chart the early years of transition into the Republic Era, and helps establish the Republic of the Sphere as a "real" BattleTech faction. The latter will instead show the state of play in the IS after ten years of Fortress Republic, and help in turn set the stage for the next great leap into the unknown which will be provided by the ilClan sourcebook.

After more than a decade of trying to catch up, BT is on the very cusp of getting out ahead of the "spoiler" material known about courtesy of MW:DA/AoD; the reins to the future of the Inner Sphere are in Catalyst's hands, and only time will tell how things pan out from here on in.

Edited by Nerroth, 20 May 2013 - 12:54 PM.

[Steven Dixon]

I actually almost look forward to what Catalyst will do with the line. In case anyone wasn't aware they are going to be doing a new line: 3250 which is supposed to be kindof a reboot (without actually being a reboot). My personal fear is that while they might make an interesting setting it just won't be battletech to me, however I'm still cautiously optimistic. I think Catalyst has at least earned enough trust from me to pick up a book or two when they come out, fingers crossed.

[Surtr]

Steven Dixon, on 03 June 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

I actually almost look forward to what Catalyst will do with the line. In case anyone wasn't aware they are going to be doing a new line: 3250 which is supposed to be kindof a reboot (without actually being a reboot). My personal fear is that while they might make an interesting setting it just won't be battletech to me, however I'm still cautiously optimistic. I think Catalyst has at least earned enough trust from me to pick up a book or two when they come out, fingers crossed.

I agree, Catalyst has done a great job with what they were left with in terms of MW:DA/AOD. I hope they have everyone bomb eachother back into the stone age again before technology progresses too much though Just no more agro-mechs please!

[Kyone Akashi]

It's kind of weird how people do not like the technological advances, yet simultaneously complain about the isolated use of IndustrialMechs as surrogates.

... and all this talk about Catalyst supposedly bringing back Battletech from the brink of oblivion makes me wonder how many fans are actually aware that it's been the exact same writers all along. Not too many, it seems? Maybe it wasn't actually all that bad after all, and people just allowed themselves to be misled by hysteria?

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 07 June 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[Steven Dixon]

Many of the writers were the same (and they did a good job, not everything DA was terrible I actually like some of it), but several people at the top changed and they went down some different paths that many people didn't like. Sometimes creative people take a product in directions that people don't like, take George Lucas for example.

I actually liked the idea of things like agromechs and more tanks and infantry. They made mechs more rare and special which brought back some of the feel of the original 3025 game. However in practice they ended up as kinda lame.

From what little I've heard about the new setting the tech level is going to see a bit of a jump which is supposed to sort of act as a reset button so the rules aren't as clogged up (the original tech is going to be somewhat obsolete). I'm not sure if I will like this but hopefully the feel will be the same and maybe they will solve some strange situations like futuristic mechs that have missiles that are more primitive than any 3rd world nation has today, ballistics that decrease in range the larger the caliber, ect. Of course this could also ruin the feel of the game and game balance, we will just have to see.

[Kyone Akashi]

Yeah, I won't comment on the Dark Age game as I've never played it - there are some parts that sound interesting to me (vehicles, infantry), and others I'm sceptical about (rules, random pack contents) ... I only have practical experience with the setting, and thought it was an interesting thing. I've grown to like both the Republic of the Sphere, as well as the Draconis Combine of the Dark Age era, and of course the Dragon's Fury splinter faction of Tai-sho Tormark.

The new tech level supposedly isn't even a real reset, it's just that the Dark Age game focused on the insurrection within the Republic, where indeed advanced technology was consolidated and the military reduced. Outside the Republic, however, the other Successor States never really stopped developing their forces, the progress just slowed down a bit as everybody shifted their priorities towards rebuilding.

In the civilian press, the Military Material Redemption Program is being touted as the "End to Warfare". While it will help to limit private armies and the unrestrained production of the 3060s, the reality is that it is far from ending war. With armies of every single Inner Sphere power greatly depleted, just rebuilding to pre-Jihad levels will take decades. As evidenced by the primary 3085 intelligence report, new technologies have matched pace with Sphere-wide rebuilding eforts. Barely a year from the original report and we can see that this technical innovation has yet to slow in pace. [...]
- RAF Military Intelligence report dated 1 December 3086 (TRO3085b)

So basically it's not a retcon, just a shift in perspective. I even saw the original Dark Age game being described as a sort of side-product recently, a "game next to the game" meant for the Pre-Clan enthusiasts (in addition to obviously drawing in entirely new players), where they could fight at a lower tech level without actually leaving the ongoing timeline behind. A playground for the hardcore 3025 fans, as you hinted at, for there is definitively a certain Succession Wars vibe coming from all of this.
I guess it just didn't hit home as well as the designers had hoped, perhaps in part due to misunderstandings between the writers and the fanbase.

For what it's worth, I would actually like to see the WizKids campaigns receive support in the form of rules/supplements within Classic Battletech as well, both because of the potential they offer, as well as to make for a more seamless transition. So far, unfortunately it seems as if CGL is skipping this sub-era entirely (with the new Era Report jumping right to 3145), but ... as you said, let's wait and see. There is one more supplement announced (Wars of the Republic Era); perhaps that one will offer us some material.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 07 June 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[Steven Dixon]

True. I've enjoyed all the BT products released (just some more than others) and I'm sure I will enjoy the next ones as well. I wish they could do a bit more with the classic BT line in the 3025 era (my favorite) but realistically I can't see what they really could do.