135 replies to this topic

[SweetJackal]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 04 November 2014 - 11:07 AM, said:

There you go. They listened to your tears and re-nerfed the most nerfed weapon in the entire game

Wonder how long itll be before you have the option of clicking a no button to make it so they wont hit you

Or mech missile shields? Oh wait we already have those and ppl STILL scream like newborns about then -.-

To be fair the 0.1 damage buff to LRMs never did anything and was a token gesture. A 40 missile volley would spread another 4 damage around the target mech if it hit and assuming it didn't spread out to the ground around it. The change will have no practical effect on their effectiveness in either a positive or a negative, players that have trouble with LRMs they will still have trouble and those that don't have a problem dealing with LRMs will not find it easier.

Seriously, a single missed volley will impact your damage output by a magnitude far greater than this change. The fact that some missiles will hit the ground instead of your target if you land a volley will cost you more damage than this change will.

The change is so insignificant that it really isn't worth noting.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Actually youre right, theyre being boated WAY MORE now than they were before LOL

I peeked once and got killed by LRMs in my last match for the first time in months

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 04 November 2014 - 04:49 PM.

[Demi-Precentor Konev]

I still haven't gotten the memo. What weapon are we going to needlessly complain about next?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

ArtyomBrusilov, on 04 November 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

I still haven't gotten the memo. What weapon are we going to needlessly complain about next?

I dont get why the number one whine that pgi historically listens to is these guys

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

My Warhawk is still getting 900 games when I run out of missiles XD

[DEN_Ninja]

Let's break this down for some of the folks that are slow.
LRM's are absolute garbage in all but two scenarios. When ECM is not there or everyone is standing out in the open.

LRM's require on a basic level time to acquire target, time to lock target, and time to travel to target. This in addition battlefield conditions and the loss of lock by conditions. This also requires people to look at whether or not AMS is in play.

Good LRM players hardly get above 50% hit rate. 50% of payloads splash dead rather than hit a target. This is most likely the lowest hit rate of any weapon. I don't mean for the single match that some of you try out. I mean from Closed Beta to Now I have seen that my missiles have a hit rate of less than 50% and this is not uncommon at all.

I implore people to run an LRM boat all day. I guarantee that you will embellish your good matches rather than report that you fight and scrap for every piece of damage you do. You will scream and rage every time you lose lock. You will scream and rage every time your missiles arc into buildings instead of over them. You will get angry when those OP missiles fire back at you because a spotter tracked you down in your stationary boat and have their LRM's throttle down your face.

I would argue that using LRM's require as much skill as any other player in most conditions. The only time that LRM boats do not struggle is when there are dedicated spotters with Narc and UAV. The real source of trouble is the dynamic between Targeting, Line of Sight, ECM, and spotting.

The camp that are for LRM's have to accept that massed amounts of LRM boats coupled with only just one effective Spotter or the enemy team being without ECM is fair game for the game ending in a 12 - 0

ECM is the hard counter to LRM's allowing an invisible missile shield. This is then strictly countered by BAP, Narc, and UAV's. This creates a black and white issue of do the opposing teams have more measures of countering each other rather than having the role and information warfare.

ECM should not act as an invisible missile shield but BAP, Narc, and UAV should not be hard counters.

ECM ought to be countering TAG, Narc, Artemis, and UAV's.
ECM cancels out the bonuses of TAG, Narc, and Artemis for mechs under its protection
ECM cancels out the targeting data but not the 'visual data' of the UAV
ECM cancels out the BAP targeting range increase for mechs under its protection.
ECM only scrambled targeting of the carrier and not the surrounding mechs.
ECM is opened up to all "Scout" Light mechs.

LRM's should have Indirect Firing and Direct Firing modes with the dumb fire ability removed.

Indirect requires targeting data from dedicated spotters that give information. This should be a quirk ability given to spotter mechs. This is also something that can be gained from a revamped Command Console. Non-Spotter mechs no longer give targeting data but give 'visual data', Seeing and Identifying the mech but not being able to give targeting info, which is standard for all mechs. Indirect will have an firing arc and works as we see now with high levels of tracking for as long as there is targeting data going to the LRM carrier.

Direct firing is one that fires the LRMs in straight line trajectory but does not need immediate support from a spotter. It would be used for Line of Sight shots mostly. Lock is required. Lock times is lower than normal because it does not need a more complex firing solution

Buff the LRM damage per missile. Add in a button for manual lock for targets.

You know what happens? Time to target, Lock, and travel for LRM's go down in direct combat and are no longer useless in a scenario where ECM comes into play but still requires the LRM carriers to have line of sight.

Indirect firing is much more complex but with increased LRM damage the payoffs can be worth it. Lower the bonuses on TAG, Narc, and Artemis a smidge.

All this introduces a better mechanic to scouting, role warfare, and information warfare. ECM is no longer as "OP" but acts as a deterrent against upgraded LRM's but are by no means an invisible shield. It is an excellent tool for scouting mechs.

____________________________

tl;dr fix the entire role warfare, information warfare, and weapon dynamic. LRM's are OP in a very limited sense but completely useless in most situations.

Or we can continue cursing each other and ignore the real problem.

[Rando Slim]

I agree that LRMS are a feast or famine weapon, however ECM only exists on a very very few mechs that a LOT of people don't enjoy running. Personally I like the Cicada 3M but it has bad hitboxes and no jumpjets, many people hate it. The spider 5d is ok but weak firepower, and has two bad variants you have to grind through with it. Its one good geometry pass away from being terrible, its best quality is its tiny/broken hitboxes. The D-DC is silly, shouldn't have ecm anyway, but even then a LOT of people don't like driving slow stuff. The Raven 3L is about the only truly good one, and again, you've got to slog through two pretty bad ravens also. Just in general people don't run many light mechs, they just die way too easily, look at the PUG queue, you never see more than 15 percent of people running light mechs.

[-Halcyon-]

What they should have done:

Buff damage to 2.0.
Require TAG/NARC for shared targeting.

Bam. Useful artillery-type weapon (i.e. MLRS) that requires a spotter with lasing/NARC. Boosts light mechs into a useful role, rewards teamwork.

Until they rework indirect shared targeting, I'm all for nerfing the damage.

[luxebo]

GGClose LRMs. In my honest opinion rather than nerfing damage they should've done something completely different, like lowering amount of people using it at once. Instead of allowing everyone and their mothers to have used it (which will still happen in Pugworld9000), they should've put some sort of limit to the amount of LRMs to each mech. If they were more of a support weapon rather than loading a bunch of LRM100 Stalkers and stuff like that then LRMs would be set (like if everyone just carried LRM5-max around 30-40 then things would be better in general and LRMs could've stayed back with their damage).

I'm pretty sure people remembered me drunkily complaining about LRMs but I think that thread I placed the title stupidly and my wording was pretty stupid as well so most people completely ignored me and said "LRMs fine L2P."

Someone could probably find a better mix in terms of what to do on LRMs, and I recommend that he/she/it go post a thread on it though.

Edited by luxebo, 04 November 2014 - 06:27 PM.

[Sorbic]

LRM's needed to have something like slower locks when you don't have LOS. Or lower damage just when you don't have LOS. A general 9% nerf that even hits those working for their locks twas not the answer.

[Abivard]

Moomtazz, on 04 November 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Don't worry buddy, I will keep complaining about them as long as the mechanic allows multiple mechs to target the same enemy with zero effort.

But multiple mechs can still fire energy and ballistics and any missile except LRM's at the same target with zero effort?

[-Halcyon-]

Abivard, on 04 November 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

But multiple mechs can still fire energy and ballistics and any missile except LRM's at the same target with zero effort?

Not without LoS they can't.

[RockmachinE]

Yes, HUGE difference...

[Sorbic]

It's funny how you only brought up the LRM nerfs but ignored BAPs huge range buff.

[Telmasa]

Halcyon201, on 04 November 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

Not without LoS they can't.

You're delusional.

[-Halcyon-]

Telmasa, on 04 November 2014 - 09:44 PM, said:

You're delusional.

Not sure if trolling, or sarcastic...

[Fabe]

WOW,haven't been here for a good long while but I see that somethings haven't change a bit

Any way my two cents on the issue ; Maybe they should just return LRMs back to their original stats but require a spotter to lock on to a target before others can use indirect fire. Limiting what units can be targeted might force teams to use some team work and coordination to use indirect fire effectively instead of just raining death down on a entire team at once.

[KraftySOT]

Every still ignores that LRMs have another level of effectiveness.

Every one sits in cover.

Im just astounded that no one makes this connection but a few players. People keep saying LRMs are only effective if everyone is out of cover and theres no ECM.

Yeah but...everyone sitting around behind cover is a direct result of the LRM being so powerful. Same with the ECM. The only reason the Magic Jesus Box exists, is because LRMs are so powerful, it changes the way you play the game.

Dual gauss is really the only other thing that makes people sit behind cover like a bunch of scared little children hiding under their desk like the Russians are coming.

If everyone stopped camping, LRMs would immediately become the most apparently over powered weapon. The fact that its completely changed the way people play the game, is a problem.

Its like if youre playing counter strike on AWP servers. Everyone sits at the spawn point and snipes. Because the AWP is so powerful. If youre not hiding, youre doing it wrong.

Campwarrior online, or Sitzkrieg ™ as I call it...is boring as ****.

Get red of the LRM entirely, and instantly everyone brawls. Thats the problem. The LRM is forcing a type of gameplay that is boring, and is driving away players.

No one wants to camp behind a mountain in a big stompy robot game. Theres nothing big and stompy about it. Its hide behind cover, get ECM, snipe, play peekabo. Boring. Lame. Drives people away.

If we went a week without LRMs youd see a totally different game. A game people enjoy considerably more.

[KraftySOT]

Sure you can avoid them. Theyre easy to avoid. The maps are designed to give you plenty of places to hide from them.

But arent you tired of the same exact game on Rivercity EVERY SINGLE GODDAMN TIME?

Both teams run for the center cover, because thats where you dont have to worry about LRMs. The same gameflow, game, after game, after game, because everyone, whether they admit it or not, has LRMs on the mind.

I see people say "I just ignore them"

No you ******* dont. You dont run out into the open either. No one does. It gets you killed. Not by lasers, acs, or srms, but by LRMs.

As youre running the SAME DAMNED PATH to the SAME DAMN LOCATION every time you play a map, remember, youre doing that because of LRMs. You arent running there because of medium lasers, or PPCs...youre running that route because LRMs.

Youre playing peekabo to break locks.

Youre whining about ECM being in the match maker because...

LRMS!

Something thats as situationally useful as a machine gun in the board game...becomes the primary motivator for gameflow in MWO.

Its ******.

Why take the hill in Alpine? Lrms.

Why stay in the Canals or behind the mesa in Canyon. Lrms.

Why hide under the helipad and rise in Rivercity. Lrms.

Why stay behind the huge rock formations in Tourmaline. Lrms.

Why run to the center in Terra. Lrms.

Why do you circle the crater in Caustic. Lrms.

Why do you go D line or B line in Mining. Lrms.

Why stick in the city in Frozen. Lrms.

Edited by KraftySOT, 05 November 2014 - 07:08 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Its the single most important factor in how each game plays, on each map.

Consciously or sub consciously...youre hiding from LRMs (IE line of sight).