107 replies to this topic

[Bigbacon]

i posted this in another thread as well. gives you a good idea of what BAP can cover

If my thinking is right here is some visual representations of the BAP range now to counter ECM.

360m RADIUS so you get a 720m diameter circle around you. I used the testing ground to 360m to certain things. 360m is pretty much the length of a single grid square.

if 65% are carrying bap then that means at least 8 out 12 per side have it which means you can cover almost everything in most maps with ease.

River City:
Reference Shot:
http://starshipvonbr...eenShot0131.jpg

Map Shot:
http://starshipvonbr...O/rivercity.png

HPG Manifold:
Reference shot:
http://starshipvonbr...eenShot0136.jpg

Map Shot:
http://starshipvonbr.../ss/MWO/HPG.png

get an BAP mech on the top of that main building in river city and they cover almost the entire fight area.

Same with manifold, get one in the middle (top or bottom) and you can no longer use ECM to maneuver around.

Edited by Bigbacon, 13 November 2014 - 08:11 AM.

[Bigbacon]

Also wanted to say this about the change.

BAP is now a better counter to ECM than ECM in counter mode. ECM in counter mode has ZERO functionality in the game now.

[Jabilo]

The whole sensors system needs a complete rework. Maybe in the new year the whole shebang can be reviewed - it needs it.

[ExAstris]

Bigbacon, on 13 November 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

i posted this in another thread as well. gives you a good idea of what BAP can cover

If my thinking is right here is some visual representations of the BAP range now to counter ECM.

360m RADIUS so you get a 720m diameter circle around you. I used the testing ground to 360m to certain things. 360m is pretty much the length of a single grid square.

if 65% are carrying bap then that means at least 8 out 12 per side have it which means you can cover almost everything in most maps with ease.

River City:
Reference Shot:
http://starshipvonbr...eenShot0131.jpg

Map Shot:
http://starshipvonbr...O/rivercity.png

HPG Manifold:
Reference shot:
http://starshipvonbr...eenShot0136.jpg

Map Shot:
http://starshipvonbr.../ss/MWO/HPG.png

get an BAP mech on the top of that main building in river city and they cover almost the entire fight area.

Same with manifold, get one in the middle (top or bottom) and you can no longer use ECM to maneuver around.

I lol'd.

Now do a comparison of overlaps with the range that ECM prevents you from locking on by default.

With BAP and sensor range module, that bubble of effect starts at 1200 meters, and doesn't let up until BAP overruns the ECM. If you don't have BAP, then its starts at 1000m, and doesn't let up until 250, but then picks back up with even worse effects at 180m until 0. Neither runs from 800-200m and from 180-0m.

Lets see some area of comparison maps of that. A 2+km diameter circle is what? Almost the entire map?

Combine that with the fact that the other effects of BAP are trashcan worthy (For 0.5 tons and one slot I might, mount it on some of my direct-fire brawlers, but nothing I owned carried it at all until it was buffed this patch). Which means that BAP's only real value is in the value it takes away from ECM users. BAP can only be good if ECM is good. Its like AMS. AMS can only be good if missiles are good.

[ZenFool]

So ECM mechs are having a hard time being invisible... Boo hoo. One of my favorite mechs is a treb with bap and lrms with artemis. Before this patch bap did NOTHING to help me personally against ecm mechs since the effective counter range is the minimum range of my lrms. After the patch I can at least tag them with a few before they close range or break LOS. With over twenty games played this weekend in my treb I'd say five of those games my bap played a role in countering ecm. Not everyone is rolling with bap. I'm sorry you think they are, but it just isn't true. I play in an ecm mech as well and out of ten games since patch, two of those I was effectively countered. I suppose we all notice it because it used to NEVER happen. Personally I say kudos for making bap a useful tool after two years of being mainly a weight sink with a little bit of sensor range.

[VXJaeger]

Solution is, remove all LRMs from game, and/or isolate 'Muricans to their own island where they can shoot each other with those shitsticks all day long.

[Bigbacon]

ZenFool, on 17 November 2014 - 10:10 PM, said:

So ECM mechs are having a hard time being invisible... Boo hoo. One of my favorite mechs is a treb with bap and lrms with artemis. Before this patch bap did NOTHING to help me personally against ecm mechs since the effective counter range is the minimum range of my lrms. After the patch I can at least tag them with a few before they close range or break LOS. With over twenty games played this weekend in my treb I'd say five of those games my bap played a role in countering ecm. Not everyone is rolling with bap. I'm sorry you think they are, but it just isn't true. I play in an ecm mech as well and out of ten games since patch, two of those I was effectively countered. I suppose we all notice it because it used to NEVER happen. Personally I say kudos for making bap a useful tool after two years of being mainly a weight sink with a little bit of sensor range.

you don't see the issue at all. It isn't about LRMs, it isn't about me being able to hide from everything.

ECM is effectively been demoted to command console status. It has almost no use now. other counters to ECM don't matter anymore at all. Even ECM's own counter mode is useless and not needed anymore. the few mechs that had ECM to play a part for thier team (or themselves) are no longer needed to carry ECM on the field. It has been effectively shut down completely.

Too many look at ECM as the sniper role thing where you just go do your own thing but for players like myself that actually used ECM as a team tool it doesn't matter now.

Since BAP can turn off ECM before ECM can, I no longer get bonuses for countering ECM with my own ECM to get targets to light up. I can no longer use my support tools by being harder to see or target when there is LOS to me. I could go out on a limb and try to Narc a target but I'm 100% targetable now.

All mechs can carry BAP, so few can carry ECM.

The tool itself is useless. ECM capable mechs are better off carry BAP now. that is the issue.

Obviously ECM needed work but they just effectively removed it from the game. ECM had plenty of counters but now only one is needed and it weights nearly the same as Tag, the same as ECM, and half as much + ammo as Narc and effectively does WAY more than just counter ECM.

[Clydewinder]

I fail to see why 1.5 tons of ECM should be so much better than 1.5 tons of BAP.

Seems to me they are in a good place right now, considering same tonnage and critical slot allocation.

[C E Dwyer]

Mitsuragi, on 04 November 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

It's a huge ECM nerf to keep ECM as a LRM killer and remove ECM as a Streak killer. It'll be interesting to see if Streaks become more prevalent after this change.

only if there is a less than mediocre light pilot or lrm boat pilots with half a brain, ie ones that realise the best ranges are less than 500 meters, the new Bap changes also don't kill LRMS.

this change only effects bad lurm pilots, and good streak pilots were not that poorly effected, I certainly had no difficulty using streaks before the big bap buff

[Cyberiad]

The range is fine but the counter ECM should only apply to the mech with BAP equipped, not the entire friendly team. BAP should only give the equipped mech the benefits and no the entire team. Right now it acts as if it's a 360m counter ECM. They should remove shared benefits for BAP but also make it so that BAP will give the equipped mech the ability to always target a mech under 360m regardless of how many enemy ECMs are in effect.

[C E Dwyer]

Clydewinder, on 18 November 2014 - 08:20 AM, said:

I fail to see why 1.5 tons of ECM should be so much better than 1.5 tons of BAP.

Seems to me they are in a good place right now, considering same tonnage and critical slot allocation.

lurms were balanced on the basis of the old ECM, with old bap now with the big radius effect of Bap ( of which good pilots take in most builds involving missiles) the lurms are on the increase, and its not much fun, even ducking and ams, pushes were rare before, now trying to get a push going is like trying to lever out a **** from a constipated cow..

Edited by Cathy, 18 November 2014 - 08:36 AM.

[Clydewinder]

Cathy, on 18 November 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

lurms were balanced on the basis of the old ECM, with old bap now with the big radius effect of Bap ( of which good pilots take in most builds involving missiles) the lurms are on the increase, and its not much fun, even ducking and ams, pushes were rare before, now trying to get a push going is like trying to lever out a **** from a constipated cow..

LRMs should never have been balanced on ECM... which is why matches are decided often by MM crapshoot as to which side gets ECM.

If there is a problem with LRM, it should be addressed via LRM, not by tweaking equipment ( ECM, BAP, AMS ) that may or may not be equipped to any given mech on the battlefield.

I think the indirect LRM fire is a bigger problem than all of the above. Direct fire LRM should be brutal. Indirect fire should not.

[ZenFool]

Silicon Life, on 18 November 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

The range is fine but the counter ECM should only apply to the mech with BAP equipped, not the entire friendly team. BAP should only give the equipped mech the benefits and no the entire team. Right now it acts as if it's a 360m counter ECM. They should remove shared benefits for BAP but also make it so that BAP will give the equipped mech the ability to always target a mech under 360m regardless of how many enemy ECMs are in effect.

This is perhaps the best solution, as it allows ecm to keep its overall effectiveness while giving me something for the otherwise useless bap. I personally don't see the bap buff as an ecm killer, but the way ecm mechs are ranting there are obviously some issues. I keep playing my ecm to see if its as bad as they say on here, but I still can't see it. Just break LOS from the one bap mech on the enemy team. Believe me, they won't all carry bap forever. There was a week or two with more than usual numbers as peeps tried it, just like the ams ammo buff made them popular for a week, but people will strip that off and go back to their normal builds. Just calm down and let it all settle out. If this is still an issue two weeks from now, then get them to do as the above post says. Pls don't rant until they renerf bap. It SHOULD be useful for something.

[VXJaeger]

BAP+C-Streaks = all lights at 360m radius die instantly when approaching with or without ECM. So why to even pilot lights?

[MoonfireSpam]

Woulda preferred it if it only worked for the mech using BAP rather than counter ECM mode - feels like a more sensible middle ground.

[Willard Phule]

Bigbacon, on 15 November 2014 - 05:06 AM, said:

Also wanted to say this about the change.

BAP is now a better counter to ECM than ECM in counter mode. ECM in counter mode has ZERO functionality in the game now.

The only people that bothered to use ECM to counter were people in the Group Queue. You know those guys, the ones that design their mechs around a team?

In the solo queue, NOONE uses their ECM to counter. Hell, I doubt if any of them actually know you CAN set it to counter.

And although the increase of range to the BAP/CAP finally allows those of us NOT piloting ECM mechs to stand a chance when the other team has 5 ECM mechs....it doesn't happen often enough.

New players, the primary residents of the solo queue, not only don't understand the importance of shutting down the other team's ECM, they either can't afford BAP/CAP or can't manage to give up the weight and space to use it.

[Kilo 40]

Bigbacon, on 13 November 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

i posted this in another thread as well. gives you a good idea of what BAP can cover

If my thinking is right here is some visual representations of the BAP range now to counter ECM.

360m RADIUS so you get a 720m diameter circle around you. I used the testing ground to 360m to certain things. 360m is pretty much the length of a single grid square.

if 65% are carrying bap then that means at least 8 out 12 per side have it which means you can cover almost everything in most maps with ease.

River City:
Reference Shot:
http://starshipvonbr...eenShot0131.jpg

Map Shot:
http://starshipvonbr...O/rivercity.png

HPG Manifold:
Reference shot:
http://starshipvonbr...eenShot0136.jpg

Map Shot:
http://starshipvonbr.../ss/MWO/HPG.png

get an BAP mech on the top of that main building in river city and they cover almost the entire fight area.

Same with manifold, get one in the middle (top or bottom) and you can no longer use ECM to maneuver around.

I was just giggling at sean lang going off about the BAP range increase and thinking how he had gotten way too used to having ECM invulnerability, but you know what? you're post pushed my down the path in thinking he may be right and 360 meters may be too much without some other condition like possibly LOS.

2-3 BAP equipped mechs can cover a LOT of map

[SgtMagor]

range is to far for BAP to counter ECM, I use the counter on ECM  for various reasons it was a useful function. Now that BAPs range range is extended to 360 it makes the ECM counter pointless. What im not sure about is with the extended range on BAP, do you need a LOS for the extended range to be of use, or is it an all knowing probe that can see thru objects now regardless where an ECM mech is?

Edited by SgtMagor, 19 November 2014 - 04:35 AM.

[Jetfire]

The BAP buff makes perfect sense in the short run until ECM can be completely addressed. Leaving ECM as it was until after CW would have been a worse decision. ECM is still plenty useful for the tonnage.

VXJaeger, on 19 November 2014 - 01:03 AM, said:

BAP+C-Streaks = all lights at 360m radius die instantly when approaching with or without ECM. So why to even pilot lights?

Streak 6 boating is a big issue for light viability, but the fix isn't ever going to be ECM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Jetfire, on 19 November 2014 - 06:19 AM, said:

The BAP buff makes perfect sense in the short run until ECM can be completely addressed. Leaving ECM as it was until after CW would have been a worse decision. ECM is still plenty useful for the tonnage.

While i agree with your point about the tonnage, and that ECM should be completely re-worked, please try to remember that mechs with ECM hardpoints received less weapon hardpoints, and less quirks as a balancing factor for their ability to carry the Jesus box - make the jesus box useless and unless you revisit the hardpoints/quirks you have just removed a bunch of mechs from the game.

for reference i don't own a single IS ECM capable mech.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 19 November 2014 - 06:23 AM.