147 replies to this topic

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Kilo 40, on 04 November 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

This right here everyone, is the mind of the average LRM whiner. He knows there are ways to deal with LRMs(radar dep, AMS, AMS overlaod, etc..), but he deliberately chooses not to use them, and STILL demands they get nerfed.

as I've said before, these people will never be happy until they are granted invincibility to LRMs 100% of the time.

A 6 million cbill module that requires clunky switching around of modules and adds a minimum of 2 mins (with the really long "saving loadout" deal) just to make lrms balanced is not in any way acceptable. With radar derp lrms feel alright because they actually require a >.5 sec LOS lock to deal damage. If a mech has 2 AMS slots then taking AMS can actually affect missile damage but a single AMS is won't even reduce missile damage by 10% and will run out of ammo LONG before the missiles stop raining even with the ammo buff. If you can control team loadout (as in coordinated play) then you have an arguement for it but in most good builds every ton counts. AMS is too situational and not even great at that situation, and as such it is not the best use of tonnage when radar derp does MUCH better at reducing missile damage for 0 tonnage cost (it's cost is GXP, CBills and lots of frustration at the stupid module system.)

Alexander MacTaggart, on 04 November 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

People that say AMS is crap because you need multiple for interlocking fields of fire and you can't rely on other people having it... are the problem with not being able to rely on other people having it.

Because it is crap and only viable when you have 4-6 interlocking AMS coverage and even that won't stop the real problem of 3-4 LRM 30+ boats raining coordinated death to anywhere on most maps at the low low price of a mech with a functioning set of "eyes". In most engagements you can reduce lrm damage by 100% by playing carefully, so that range of usefulness is even further limited.

You can pretend to be superior and arrogant about your opinions being the one truth but the bottom line is this: fighting against heavy lrms is probably the least fun engagement you can possibly find yourself in, in the current state of MWO. It's boring, sluggish, and the last thing the typically impatient PUG guy queues up to play through. The biggest problem with LRMs is indirect fire and the absolute miserable gameplay that is produced by multiple lrms boats locking down the entire map thanks to nearly untouchable ECM spotters, ESPECIALLY if the matchmaker decided to not give your team ECM or your one ECM light decided he wanted to be a superhero solo brawler and died 3 mins into the match. PGI's bottom line relies on pleasing the majority of players so don't ever expect the current implementation of lrms to be compeititve in group play (and OP in PUGs) without a fairly major redesign of the way lrms work.

[Kilo 40]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 05 November 2014 - 03:45 AM, said:

A 6 million cbill module that requires clunky switching around of modules and adds a minimum of 2 mins (with the really long "saving loadout" deal) just to make lrms balanced is not in any way acceptable. With radar derp lrms feel alright because they actually require a >.5 sec LOS lock to deal damage. If a mech has 2 AMS slots then taking AMS can actually affect missile damage but a single AMS is won't even reduce missile damage by 10% and will run out of ammo LONG before the missiles stop raining even with the ammo buff. If you can control team loadout (as in coordinated play) then you have an arguement for it but in most good builds every ton counts. AMS is too situational and not even great at that situation, and as such it is not the best use of tonnage when radar derp does MUCH better at reducing missile damage for 0 tonnage cost (it's cost is GXP, CBills and lots of frustration at the stupid module system.)

If you're upset about LRMs, there are options to deal with them. VERY few other weapons have counters against them, other than cover and breaking LOS. "It's too clunky to change a module" and "But I want to use the tonnage for other stuff" isn't an excuse.

but your comment where you say

Quote

but a single AMS is won't even reduce missile damage by 10% and will run out of ammo LONG before the missiles stop raining even with the ammo buff.

just reinforces what I said. You guys don't want to lower damage from LRMs, or wantt want to make it more difficult to get hit by them. you want to be invincible from LRM fire.

[The Boz]

El Bandito, on 04 November 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

Equip an AMS, save a pug.

Why, did they give us AMS rewards?
*checks*
Nope.

[Tw1stedMonkey]

Kilo 40, on 05 November 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

If you're upset about LRMs, there are options to deal with them. VERY few other weapons have counters against them, other than cover and breaking LOS. "It's too clunky to change a module" and "But I want to use the tonnage for other stuff" isn't an excuse.

but your comment where you say just reinforces what I said. You guys don't want to lower damage from LRMs, or want want to make it more difficult to get hit by them. you want to be invincible from LRM fire.

And you don't want to have to work (aim or risk return fire) for the damage and kills you get. See I can make bs claims about what you want from the game too but that doesn't change any facts now does it?
If i am going to sacrifice a limited something I expect to get a certain proportionate value from it. x1 AMS does not fulfill that ratio with it's very situational and limited effects.

[Mcgral18]

Well, I might be selfish, but I don't see the need for AMS. I'm sure it would help the Pugs, but so do my direct fire weapons.

Of course, I don't complain about Lurms either.

[Kilo 40]

Tw1stedMonkey, on 05 November 2014 - 04:02 AM, said:

and limited effects.

Kilo 40, on 05 November 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

You guys don't want to lower damage from LRMs, or want want to make it more difficult to get hit by them. you want to be invincible from LRM fire.

[Walluh]

Triple AMS kitfox is your true messiah

[LordKnightFandragon]

Scrotacus 42, on 05 November 2014 - 12:30 AM, said:

You know what would be sweet? Letting me manually shoot down missiles with my weapons.....because reality. THEN I would stop bitching I swear.
Yes I agree, equip AMS if your build at all allows it, though for something like a light mech you better just learn to dodge them, you cant spare the tonnage.

Builds can spare it, the question is, can the player deal with dealing 6 less damage, or 1 less heatsink to take that 1.5t to mount it......

I had it even on my 4 ERPPC WHK for awhile.....I really doubt the 1 less DHS really even made any kind of difference. The AMS was fun =D

[Rando Slim]

Hmm I dunno man, I have AMS on most mechs, but you really cant spare it on lights. Jenner-F? Nope you NEED those heatsinks, max engine, 2 jumpjets. Jenner-D? Nope, I already cut my engine down to a 280 so I can get the right punch with two srm 4s and 4 medium lasers and have enough ammo and two jumpjets. I really cant deal with dealing less damage because clan mechs need to die as fast as possible, when I have an opportunity to hit something in a light mech I need to be able to hurt them a little, 22 point alphas really don't cut it with all these stormcrows and other shite wandering around. Commados? No way, you cant even use max engines and get all your hardpoints filled anyway. A commando 2d would be impossibly, laughably weak (the whole 10 heat sink minimum for th ultra light mechs doesn't help either). I don't know of any meta builds that use AMS, and since I play in semi-competitive drops and even MRBC stuff, I need all the firepower I can get. Now granted I will of course at least take radar derp, and I take AMS on things 50 tons and over typically, but I really do hate sacrificing engine size or firepower for it, like say on a Trebuchet or Blackjack, what the hell wouid I do with my BJ-1 if I couldn't run my usual Gaussjack build? I dunno man I really don't., cause goodness knows AC/2s suck and I don't wanna be like everyone else using the "boomjack" (plus IMO blackjacks are too squishy to spend much time close enough to enemies to use an AC/20 anyway).

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 05 November 2014 - 06:15 AM.

[El Bandito]

Of course, selfishness prevails. I understand that. I understand that all too well. I too am one of those "Too 1337 to die to LRMs" club and scorned the AMS for a long time. But later on I got to know firsthand, as a long time Lurmer, just how effective AMS umbrella works when even a single lance, or just two dual AMS mechs are equipped with it.

I am obviously not going to change people's mind with just a thread--hence it is simply an announcement, ahead of all the LRM quirked IS mechs you will be seeing this week, and all the Quad LRM15 Timberwolves you are going to be fighting against, next week. This rainy season is not going to end anytime soon.

No tonnage to spare is such a crap excuse. Even Lights have tonnage to put in AMS, as evidenced by 30 ton Kit Fox cramming 3 of them. You are simply switching some offensive stats to defensive stats--and with the ammo buff, it is definitely worth the weight. Of course, that is probably unacceptable to the Min Max club.

Finally, just to make it clear: Those who say, "AMS? But I need my DPS!", had forfeited their right to QQ about LRMs.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 November 2014 - 07:26 AM.

[The Boz]

So, just as has been said, you need 4+ AMS to make a difference.

[Joseph Mallan]

Scrotacus 42, on 05 November 2014 - 12:30 AM, said:

You know what would be sweet? Letting me manually shoot down missiles with my weapons.....because reality. THEN I would stop bitching I swear.
Yes I agree, equip AMS if your build at all allows it, though for something like a light mech you better just learn to dodge them, you cant spare the tonnage.

But someone else would pick up the torch and complain cause More heat, I need more ammo, why can't my AC20 shoot down a whole salvo by it self. No thanks.

[El Bandito]

The Boz, on 05 November 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

So, just as has been said, you need 4+ AMS to make a difference.

Even one AMS can make a difference, more is just better. Average pugger simply does not understand that fact. They are turned off by the lack of perceived rewards associated with AMS usage--which is incredibly stupid BTW.

MWO is a team game, and even in Pugs, where teamwork is low, equipping AMS is the easiest way to contribute to your team.

Edited by El Bandito, 05 November 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

The Boz, on 05 November 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

So, just as has been said, you need 4+ AMS to make a difference.

LOL do you know how useless AMS was on TT? I mean seriously USELESS!

[Mercules]

The Boz, on 05 November 2014 - 07:22 AM, said:

So, just as has been said, you need 4+ AMS to make a difference.

Bull... I've run a 3 AMS Kitfox. It alone gobbled up swarms of missiles. If every mech in the game had an AMS with 1 ton of ammo LRM boats would quit in frustration. 1 AMS will reduce damage and eat LRM5s as they come in... you know those "I hate the screen shake from streaming missiles" salvos. 2 will basically shut down the 5 LRM5 A1. Almost no one runs 20s and smaller sizes can be significantly reduced in power with just 2 AMS.

Edited by Mercules, 05 November 2014 - 07:39 AM.

[Mavairo]

Ask any poor ******** in the group que, that dropped against CI last night with massive LRMs how "effective" they were against 3/4 of our mechs (some were DUAL AMS mechs to boot) carrying AMS.

You could watch our AMSes vaporizing entire LRM 50 IS (the better LRMs) into being nearly non damaging. And completely removing clan LRMs from the sky.

[Bront]

Would you drop without full armor on your torso? Because AMS is like getting extra armor on your torso, and on the rest of your team.

Do I have a few builds without it? Yes. Mostly lights, or faster mechs. But I find it important enough to carry on almost all my other mechs, and that dual AMS is worth carrying. If you go under 80, it shouldn't be optional.

Remember, AMS does help against SSRMs and SRMs (not as much as LRMs, but it does), and damage prevented is just the same as having the extra armor to soak said damage.

[El Bandito]

Bront, on 05 November 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

Would you drop without full armor on your torso? Because AMS is like getting extra armor on your torso, and on the rest of your team.

Do I have a few builds without it? Yes. Mostly lights, or faster mechs. But I find it important enough to carry on almost all my other mechs, and that dual AMS is worth carrying. If you go under 80, it shouldn't be optional.

Remember, AMS does help against SSRMs and SRMs (not as much as LRMs, but it does), and damage prevented is just the same as having the extra armor to soak said damage.

Also, AMS can potentially destroy NARCs launched towards your team, which is huge.

[Ghogiel]

I haven't used ams since the last apocalypse

[KraftySOT]

Joseph Mallan, on 05 November 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

LOL do you know how useless AMS was on TT? I mean seriously USELESS!

Of course LRMs were pretty useless too other than niche roles like dropping mines, or shooting at stationary targets, lighting woods on fire at a distance. With the woods absorbing damage rule going, LRMs are even less useful.

It wasnt bad to have a few mechs with a launcher, but boats were terrible. Youd be better suited taking anything else really.

A gaggle of LRM20s might do 20 or 30 total damage, 18-28 if theres ams at play, 10-20 if theyre in woods.

They were strictly a support weapon or harassing weapon, with their real use not being evident until armor starts getting stripped down to internals. Theres a window of the eras where theyre not bad, but say in 3025 theyre utterly pointless. Its just something that will explode when punched, or never be used while youre kicking shins. Most mechs didnt even have the HS to fire them. Archers cant even fire both LRM20s with 10 HS. Crusaders have the same issue, so do catapults.

That said, SRMs arent fantastic either, even boated, like they are here. 3 SRM6s on a Shadowhawk in the TT, would not be running around splatting Direwolves. Maybe a lucky TAC...thats your only chance.

The Crusader makes me sad too. SRM6s become 4s..heats still a problem. LRM15s become 10s. Still a problem. Hey heres some JJs...damnit ok now were down to Streak 2s...

Mechs were just bad.